Quantcast KDVD vs KVCD Resolutions? - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
  #1  
12-21-2003, 09:52 AM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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Hi Guys,
I'm using the new MA script and the KDVD full D1 template
to produce 2 or 3 movies in a DVD-r.
Also I'm trying to see if I'm able to produce miniDVDs with it.
1) Can I change the resolution from 720x576 to 704x576 or
544x576
and still expect it to be a fully compatible DVD?
If not, would it help using DVDPatcher, or that just fools the
authoring tool thus not making any compliant DVD stream
from a 544x576 mpeg2?
2) Looking at this thread http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=28
I still get a bit confused on what I should use with 704x576
and with 544x576 even because I don't know if the posted
opinions are valid for both KVCD and KDVD.
Should I overscan or not? I'm only working with DVD sources
and these would be mostly 1.85:1 and 2.35:1 anamorphic.
BTW I would like to keep them anamorphic
Thnx
C ya
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  #2  
12-21-2003, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rds_correia
1) Can I change the resolution from 720x576 to 704x576 or
544x576
and still expect it to be a fully compatible DVD?
704*576 yes, 544*576 no. But yu can go to 352*576 if you want.

Quote:
If not, would it help using DVDPatcher, or that just fools the
authoring tool thus not making any compliant DVD stream
from a 544x576 mpeg2?
(note : you gave the link to a forum, not to a thread)
The problem isn't only to fool the authoring program, but is in the capability of your standalone to handle such resolution.
But there is nothing better than a test. So, yes, you can try that and see what happens.

Quote:
2)Should I overscan or not?
Overscaning is tied to TV set/ If you plan to watch your video on a TV, yes you have to use overscan. That is useless for watching on video projector.

Quote:
BTW I would like to keep them anamorphic
With KDVD you can.
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  #3  
12-21-2003, 11:21 AM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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Hi Phil,
Thanks for the prompt reply.
Yes, you're right. I gave the link of the forum and not the post I wanted .
Sorry about that. I meant this thread http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2778 .
Now, since I'd like to watch my movies mostly on my 32" 16:9 TVset I wouldn't go below 544x576. Since 544x576 isn't in the DVD specs and DVDpatcher wouldn't help, I'll stick with 704x576 .
I didn't know that we only need overscan on TVsets .
But since I need OS I looked at thread http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8065 to see if I finally understand it, but...
I'm a little slower than anybody else in that thread .
Since I'm making anamorphic KDVDs I believe my MA script should look like this right
Code:
#LoadPlugin Area#
Mpeg2Source("MySource.d2v")
#MA plugins#
GripCrop(704,576, overscan=2, dest_anamorphic=true)
GripSize(resizer="BicubicResize")
#More MA Plugins#
GripBorders()
#Limiter() and MA functions#
The part I don't know on what to choose is the Overscan.
Should I enter 0,1,2 or 3?
Should I stick with 1 and add LetterBox(0,0,8,after GripBorders() ?
What do you think?
Thanks Phil.
C ya.
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12-21-2003, 11:53 AM
incredible incredible is offline
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I agree that was a "headache" thread

http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8065

When encoding anamorph sources still in an anamorphic state you don't need to resize! And if you really want to end up with a 704x576 you only ned to crop 8px on the right and 8px on the left by using the Crop() filter of Avisynth .
This will end up in a right AR 704x576 stream.
Mpeg2Source("MySource.d2v")
Crop(8,0,704,576)

Next point, the Overscan:
This only depends if you try to gain compression, so if you only want to put two 120min 704x576 including AC3 5.1 on one DVD-R, in my eyes no overscan is needed, because yor AVG Bitrate is high enough when using the Notch matrix.

IF you want to apply an Overscan, then put you Letterbox(16,16,16,16) behind AddBorders() or GripBorders(). As this overlays the Picture using the Black bars. In my opinion 8px in Letterboxing won't gain that much compression cause MpegEncoings will get the best compression when using the 16px logic (Macroblock).

Mpeg2Source("MySource.d2v")
Crop(8,0,704,576)
TemporalSoften(1,3,5,3,2)
Letterbox(16,16,16,16)

Thats all you'll need to preserve a good quality.
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  #5  
12-21-2003, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rds_correia
I didn't know that we only need overscan on TVsets .
Because "overscan" is a bad word. The real and complete expression is "TV overscan". And all is in the name

The "TV overscan" is the way TV sets are configured to crop a part of the image on all sides. As this image is never displayed, is better to put black there insteed of picture information (as black borders are more compressed and take less space in the mpeg file).

Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
Next point, the Overscan:
This only depends if you try to gain compression
Not at all !
The picture in the TV overscan area won't be ever displayed. So it's completly amazing to decide to put picture there, whatever the compression we already have ! It's a matter of logic in my eyes.
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  #6  
12-21-2003, 12:26 PM
incredible incredible is offline
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If its that a matter of logic, why do still most DVD Masterings do not contain these overscan based borders ? (just playing)

But in case of KDVD - afterwards I totally agree with you!
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12-21-2003, 12:29 PM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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Hi Incredible.
Thanks for your reply.
Nice site you run
Quote:
I agree that was a "headache" thread

http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8065
You bet!

Quote:
When encoding anamorph sources still in an anamorphic state you don't need to resize! And if you really want to end up with a 704x576 you only ned to crop 8px on the right and 8px on the left by using the Crop() filter of Avisynth .
This will end up in a right AR 704x576 stream.
Mpeg2Source("MySource.d2v")
Crop(8,0,704,576)
So you say I don't need to resize using Bilinear/Bicubic/Lanczos

Quote:
Next point, the Overscan:
This only depends if you try to gain compression, so if you only want to put two 120min 704x576 including AC3 5.1 on one DVD-R, in my eyes no overscan is needed, because yor AVG Bitrate is high enough when using the Notch matrix.
Yep, it all depends on the results. Leave that to me and I'll run some tests.

Quote:
IF you want to apply an Overscan, then put you Letterbox(16,16,16,16) behind AddBorders() or GripBorders(). As this overlays the Picture using the Black bars. In my opinion 8px in Letterboxing won't gain that much compression cause MpegEncoings will get the best compression when using the 16px logic (Macroblock).
Which do you find best in terms of looks and speed? AddBorders or GripBorders?

Quote:
Mpeg2Source("MySource.d2v")
Crop(8,0,704,576)
TemporalSoften(1,3,5,3,2)
Letterbox(16,16,16,16)
Now you've puzzled me again .Shouldn't it just be:
Code:
Crop(8,0,704,576)
# latest MA script plugins #
Letterbox(16,16,16,16)
Gripborders() or AddBorders()
# MA script functions #
Quote:
Thats all you'll need to preserve a good quality.
Thanks man.
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  #8  
12-21-2003, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rds_correia
So you say I don't need to resize using Bilinear/Bicubic/Lanczos
Exact! - As we maintain the original 576 height anamorph 1:1 source state we do not resize, thats why we only need to crop the 720x576 to end up in a right 704x576 resolution as this is a legal PAL DVD res. standard and as it is based on cropping the ITU-R BT601 ... standard. (watch moviestacker!)

Quote:
Which do you find best in terms of looks and speed? AddBorders or GripBorders?
Thats not a matter of speed! Its a matter of syntax!
IF you use GripCrop, your borders will be added by GripBorders()
IF you use the classic Bicubic/LanczosResize, your borders must be added by using Addborders!
Quote:
Code:
Crop(8,0,704,576) 
# latest MA script plugins # 
Letterbox(16,16,16,16) 
Gripborders() or AddBorders() 
# MA script functions #
Nope!
You're already in that needed 704x576 resolution there is no need to add borders afterwards! And to say it more precisely its forbidden!
According to GripBorders or Addborders read my in this reply the lines above, so you'll understand.
BTW, just Addborders() wont work, you have to add the needed values, cause Addborders doesn't base on an automatically internal detection routine like GripFit does.
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12-21-2003, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
If its that a matter of logic, why do still most DVD Masterings do not contain these overscan based borders ? (just playing)
Lot of newbies will take this question for seriuous so I will answer to it : because a DVD is intended to be watched on a video projector !
(else, why the most part of them are in progressive mode ? )
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  #10  
12-21-2003, 01:35 PM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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Quote:
Nope!
You're already in that needed 704x576 resolution there is no need to add borders afterwards! And to say it more precisely its forbidden!
According to GripBorders or Addborders read my in this reply the lines above, so you'll understand.
So you mean that I should just enter Letterbox(16,16,16,16) in order to have borders I did it but I can't see any borders besides a little block of 16 on top and 16 on bottom at least on my monitor...
Do I even need borders Maybe this is the question I should be posting after watching the results I've seen from your script.

Quote:
BTW, just Addborders() wont work, you have to add the needed values, cause Addborders doesn't base on an automatically internal detection routine like GripFit does.
I see, so only SansGrip filter will do the math by themselves. If I use AddBorders I'll have to insert the values by hand. Maybe it's better to stick with GripBorders if needed. That is, if I get to understand if need to add borders again.
Thanks
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12-21-2003, 03:18 PM
incredible incredible is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
(else, why the most part of them are in progressive mode ? )
Ok, lets continue playing...

a) Do you mean why most of the mastered DVDs are in Progressive mode (shot on film 23.976 conv. to 25 FPS progressive PAL including interlaced flags)??
b) Or are you refering to progressive scan capable video equipment?

Choose your weapon
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12-21-2003, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
(else, why the most part of them are in progressive mode ? )
Maybe because most high end cameras used by the motion picture industry are FILM (24fps)

-kwag
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12-21-2003, 03:43 PM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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hmmm
I wonder why when I stoped using GripFilter my CQ dropped so dramatically ...
That could be because I'm working with the whole 704x576 instead of 672x544 as
pinpointed by Moviestacker
If so maybe I'll better stick with GripFilter with overscan 2
I got to make up my mind and I just don't know what I should do ...
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12-21-2003, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rds_correia
I wonder why when I stoped using GripFilter my CQ dropped so dramatically ...
That could be because I'm working with the whole 704x576 instead of 672x544 as
pinpointed by Moviestacker
I wondered if incredible wasn't wrong in it's advice of do not using cropping at all, but he is !
Your picture isn't fullscreen, it is letterboxed. That means that there are black borders already in the original picture

GripCrop, as its name says it, crops the existing black borders and so, after this line, you work only on the film area.
Thats is why you have a better CQ with GripCrop : removing black borders, filtering and then adding new borders isn't the same at all than not cutting existing borders and working on the whole picture.

Quote:
if so maybe I'll better stick with GripFilter with overscan 2
You can also do everything without gripfit (ask to moviestacker the correct settings to do the same job than gripfit but with avisynth internal commands).
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12-21-2003, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwag
Maybe because most high end cameras used by the motion picture industry are FILM (24fps)
Not only high end cameras... much much time before

Industry film is most delivered on 35mm, besides the main picture information ther're also included 2 optical audio tracks, and more!
24 FPS but every picture will be lighten two times so you will get a loop frequency of 48 frames per second. Thats why you see in cinema the movie "flickerfree".

A 35mm FIlm only gots a AR of 1:1,37, and at recording a optical way is used to put the image in an anamorphic state on that material. And when presenting this tape using a Cinema projector also an optical way is used to de-sqeeze the view. This gives us the CenturyFox Trademark 1:2,35 Cinemascope View And 1966 The Cinemascope Trademark sign was changed to the official name Panavision. But Cinemascope is still used for Widescreen signing.



On the reel left aside the picturepart is the audio part.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DialHot
I wondered if incredible wasn't wrong in it's advice of do not using cropping at all, but he is !
Your picture isn't fullscreen, it is letterboxed. That means that there are black borders already in the original picture
Not using Cropping??? He should do 8px on each side as I said this, but IF he encodes again in an anamorph state he just does a 1:1 proportional copy of the 720x576 to 704x576 (if this was his purpose?) Shure if he got a 2,35:1 one its letterboxed to 1.85:1 encoded anamorph to fit the 720x576.
But I didn't understand whats the problem now? If he wants to do his Encoding non anamorph he can use moviestacker more CQ but then letterboxed 4:3. That's what I understood as his purpose .. to keep the anamorph state! But maybeit was his confusion according to anamorph and 16:9 view .... and the headache begins as new .

Or am I far far away ???
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12-21-2003, 05:15 PM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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Quote:
I wondered if incredible wasn't wrong in it's advice of do not using cropping at all, but he is !
Well, I'm not sure Phil because there is a Crop(8,0,704,576) line that Incredible told me to use.
On the otherway, I thought that the CQ had dopped because there is no plugin resizing the picture
Since I'm not an expert I think I'll leave it as it is with GripFit.
Quote:
Your picture isn't fullscreen, it is letterboxed. That means that there are black borders already in the original picture
Yep couldn't agree more with you.
Quote:
GripCrop, as its name says it, crops the existing black borders and so, after this line, you work only on the film area.
And again we agree Isn't it nice
Quote:
Thats is why you have a better CQ with GripCrop : removing black borders, filtering and then adding new borders isn't the same at all than not cutting existing borders and working on the whole picture.
We're definitly in sync Phil, but didn't I crop
Quote:
You can also do everything without gripfit (ask to moviestacker the correct settings to do the same job than gripfit but with avisynth internal commands).
I think that would be too advanced for me
I'll stick with GripFit. I just don't know in what cases I use overscan 0,1,2 or 3.
If there were a simple rule like:
1 - On anamorphic 2.35:1 sources use overscan 3 if you are encoding for anamorphic 16:9 with tmpgenc.
2 - On anamorphic 1.85:1 sources use overscan 2 if you are encoding for anamorphic 16:9 with tmpgenc.
3 - On non anamorphic sources use overscan 0 if .....
See what I mean I just suspect that if I start fooling around with overscan values,
I'll end up with a completely wrong AR...
Anyway thanks for the advise.
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12-21-2003, 05:24 PM
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The how much of tv overscan you apply does depend on how you encode!

If you let your source anamorphic do not apply too much letterboxing on the sides as it will be stretched in its width, tehrefore the borders on the sides will also be scaled! So watch out.

On non anamorph encodings speech letterboxed to 4:3 you can apply without problems 16px on all sides using Letterbox.

And there you can choose if resized overscan or just overlapped overscan, and how this works and whats about it , you can see at my www page.

So finally I understood that you will end up with a letterboxed to 4:3 image containing just a 16:9 widesceen View?? Because then I understood you wrong at the beginning of all this.
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12-21-2003, 05:51 PM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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Ok.
From the begining, then:
I want my anamorphic widescreen DVDs backed up on KDVDs or miniDVDs using the KDVD Full D1 template written by Kwag.
I would tell tmpgenc that the source is 16:9 625 lines (PAL) and I would set the encoding resolution to 704x576 with 16:9 Display AR.
Then I would use the latest MA script that Kwag (and perhaps you guys?) wrote.
I would like my encodings to be pretty similar to my originals to keep the compatibility with DVD (so maybe I better not use miniDVD?).
But I once saw on a thread that I already mentioned on my original post that I should watch out with the overscan. So I learnt that there are 4 possible values for it and that maybe some adjust better for encoding 2.35:1 originals and other maybe for 1.85:1 originals.
Now what should I do because I have both but always anamorphic.
Please keep in mind that I've been using GripCrop(704,576, overscan=2, dest_anamorphic=true).
I just don't know if I should use different value on overscan.
Quoting myself.
Quote:
Should I overscan or not? I'm only working with DVD sources
and these would be mostly 1.85:1 and 2.35:1 anamorphic.
BTW I would like to keep them anamorphic
Thnx
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