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  #1  
05-14-2021, 09:55 PM
ZetaSuprema ZetaSuprema is offline
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Allright i have been looking my discs i have found that some have pinholes (a little dot on the disc that light can go thought), internet usuarlly links that to disc deterioration but... how much reallity are in this?

Also i have found on some discs cracks on the inner plastic ring of the (where you put the finger in the center), could be that problematic in the future if is little?

Something like this:

https://radikal.ru/lfp/s019.radikal....73ccd3.jpg/htm

And about the inner plastic ring... is it normal to have something like this but just in the transparent part or in the "Xbox 360" reflective logo? In a very very small version, it's like white but looks like glue

https://i.redd.it/btwqxjysuy931.png

Thanks in advance
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  #2  
05-14-2021, 10:08 PM
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Please attach images to the forum. I can't see that first link, only the Reddit link (as I'm also a Reddit member u/lordsmurf-).

The XBOX disc isn't a pinhole. From what I'm seeing there, that disc was mistreated. The inner "authenticity" foil logo stuff is exterior overprint, and is flaking due to stresses. That same stress has caused the disc bonding to give, the polycarb layers to split, and oxidize the actual inner disc foils. That disc is screwed. Bad storage is likely. While it can be bad bonding from day 1, it's unlikely.

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05-14-2021, 10:22 PM
ZetaSuprema ZetaSuprema is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Please attach images to the forum. I can't see that first link, only the Reddit link (as I'm also a Reddit member u/lordsmurf-).

The XBOX disc isn't a pinhole. From what I'm seeing there, that disc was mistreated. The inner "authenticity" foil logo stuff is exterior overprint, and is flaking due to stresses. That same stress has caused the disc bonding to give, the polycarb layers to split, and oxidize the actual inner disc foils. That disc is screwed. Bad storage is likely. While it can be bad bonding from day 1, it's unlikely.
Sorry, i explained bad, the pinholes are like this:

8i543ovsntx51.jpg

I am i would likely attach the photos but are from external links like examples and i don't know how to show it

Edit: it's seems that the

You must be logged in to view this content; either login or register for the forum. The attached screen shots, before/after images, photos and graphics are created/posted for the benefit of site members. And you are invited to join our digital media community.


works, this are the cracks, can be derivate in the reddit image of is it's like to this length is okay?



The last photo was and example of the glue in a disk in that part but over exagerated, it's very difficult to see and just is until the Xbox 360 logo, not in the data part apparently


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  #4  
05-14-2021, 10:29 PM
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Cracks are also from stress, improper storage. Many cheap DVD cases badly stress discs.

The "pinhole" is likely just micro holes in the lacquer print surface. The alloys used in DVD-ROM are not opaque, and cheap DVDs discs may have just print on the bare foil/polycarb sandwich.

CD-ROM/-R has no upper, it's lacquer+print on the foil itself. No polycard protection. This is why CD media is not archival.

The same is true of BD-RoM/R, which is inverse structure. Thick top, razor thin bottom that is easily damaged.

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05-14-2021, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Cracks are also from stress, improper storage. Many cheap DVD cases badly stress discs.

The "pinhole" is likely just micro holes in the lacquer print surface. The alloys used in DVD-ROM are not opaque, and cheap DVDs discs may have just print on the bare foil/polycarb sandwich.

CD-ROM/-R has no upper, it's lacquer+print on the foil itself. No polycard protection. This is why CD media is not archival.

The same is true of BD-RoM/R, which is inverse structure. Thick top, razor thin bottom that is easily damaged.
Allright... so... pinholes can produce to air get inside the disc and oxidizes / is just oxidized or it's normal manufacturating on disc and it's not any cause of failure soon or something like that?

And cracks if just damage the plastic the air can get inside or just if get the data side?
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  #6  
05-14-2021, 10:43 PM
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A pinhole in the print surface of the DVD can't oxidize anything, air will not pass, because the polycarb layer is between the print layer/surface and the disc dyes/foils layer.

Also true of Blu-ray.

But not true of CD.

There is no "data side" of an optical disc. The entire disc is the data, excluding print/writing surface.

Cracks will grow over time, regardless of external gluing. Physics, gravity.

Glue will throw off disc wobble, cripple the wobble % (some may still be within tolerance, some not).

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  #7  
05-14-2021, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
A pinhole in the print surface of the DVD can't oxidize anything, air will not pass, because the polycarb layer is between the print layer/surface and the disc dyes/foils layer.

Also true of Blu-ray.

But not true of CD.

There is no "data side" of an optical disc. The entire disc is the data, excluding print/writing surface.

Cracks will grow over time, regardless of external gluing. Physics, gravity.

Glue will throw off disc wobble, cripple the wobble % (some may still be within tolerance, some not).
Wait, why pinholes are a problem on CD but not on DVD/Bluray?

About oxidation... allright, it can't but if the light go thought that "pinhole" is missing information due to the laser can't reflect so... can affect the playability?

And about the cracks... it can get bigger if is more stress i suppose, the gravity i don't see that can make it bigger if not have much weight and put a dvd case one up on another like books in horizontal
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  #8  
05-16-2021, 04:05 PM
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CD has no upper polycarb layer. The print layer is covered by mere lacquer, then the print layer sits on top of it.

DVD = sandwich, archival
CD = not a sandwich (peanuts butter toast), NOT archival
Blu-ray = badly made sandwich (hamburger bun on one side, thin shaved sliced of bread on the other), NOT archival

Cracks grow. Gravity. Can't escape it. How fast or slow depends on factors, but it's inevitable.

There's no "pinhole" in the disc, only the print layer. The disc is NOT opaque (not see-through). It's translucent, the inner materials are razor thin. That foil is not like foil you put in the oven, but foil that's probably 10x thinner (I don't remember the exact thickness offhand, but it's in the disc book specs). So light will pass, aside from the print layer. How much light passes depends on the foil or the dye. There are extra-thin foils found in cheaply made discs, barely good enough to reflect. Remember, you see visible light, the disc only sees bounced infrared/UV.

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  #9  
05-16-2021, 04:41 PM
ZetaSuprema ZetaSuprema is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
CD has no upper polycarb layer. The print layer is covered by mere lacquer, then the print layer sits on top of it.

DVD = sandwich, archival
CD = not a sandwich (peanuts butter toast), NOT archival
Blu-ray = badly made sandwich (hamburger bun on one side, thin shaved sliced of bread on the other), NOT archival

Cracks grow. Gravity. Can't escape it. How fast or slow depends on factors, but it's inevitable.

There's no "pinhole" in the disc, only the print layer. The disc is NOT opaque (not see-through). It's translucent, the inner materials are razor thin. That foil is not like foil you put in the oven, but foil that's probably 10x thinner (I don't remember the exact thickness offhand, but it's in the disc book specs). So light will pass, aside from the print layer. How much light passes depends on the foil or the dye. There are extra-thin foils found in cheaply made discs, barely good enough to reflect. Remember, you see visible light, the disc only sees bounced infrared/UV.
I am going in parts:

1. So... CD if you scratch the label could you damage the discs, it's not rotting or something like that, just physical damage that could get air into? That's why some people refuses to buy CD with pinholes in the label layer

As i understood, that doesn't affect DVD, because have a policabornate layer upside and Bluray i suppose that if you scratch the label upside the little layer of upside would protect it, the hard is duramis of downside i suppose

2. I suppose that depends of the large of the crack, but yes, could be 5 years, could be a "lifetime"

3. Allright, that explains a lot of things, but, as far as i know, the middle is aluminium, so, as far as i know, that's reflects visible light, you can't see the "other side" because it's not 100% transparent, or i am wrong and it's a different aluminium that just works with UV and Infrared light?

And that's why you want to avoid the UV and Infrared... because can damage the data without seen any visible data? Or it's just because delamination stuff of layers stuff?

And finally, i am going to post some examples of DVD/Bluray/Panasonic special format (Wii U discs, perfect round edges) that a have found and i would appreciate your info about some it's starting to be damaged/are going to be permanently damaged early

Mass Effect 2 (both discs in the same spot)





Horizon Zero Dawn





Bayonetta Wii U pinhole





Bloodborne pinhole



Basically i want to know where to look to know if a disc is f'd or not, i collect them, and i know that are very very fragile, so i am going to check collection to know in what state are actually (I hope with time do personal backups, because better be safe than sorry)

And about the last post, i don't know if you remember the marks of lacquer on the edges, but that's not early signs of delamination and are from manufacturating right?

Nothing more to say, thanks i and really hope your help, because this is a pain in the ass, and i take notes about your info, i am going to move my entire collection to a wall with minimum sunlight (always in the shade), put a big deshumidifier and open the windows just in the morning to ventilate, that i thing that could be enough, i guess

Sorry if the images are BIG but i cant reduce them anyway xD
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  #10  
05-16-2021, 07:39 PM
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You need to attach images to posts. Hotlinked IMG tags break within minutes due to those sites and object caching. So I can't see anything that you tried to post.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. It's not aluminum, but an alloy.

The lasers that read discs use IR and UV.

Rough edges are just sloppy bonding when created. Not separation. When a disc separates, the oxidization is quickly obvious. With dye-based media, it's almost instant. When pressed media, it's harder to see with the naked eye. Discs are essentially vacuum sealed.

Move to wall with minimal light and heat. Try to put on an interior wall, on "that side" of the house (shaded, least sun, etc) if exterior wall.

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  #11  
05-16-2021, 08:30 PM
ZetaSuprema ZetaSuprema is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
You need to attach images to posts. Hotlinked IMG tags break within minutes due to those sites and object caching. So I can't see anything that you tried to post.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. It's not aluminum, but an alloy.

The lasers that read discs use IR and UV.

Rough edges are just sloppy bonding when created. Not separation. When a disc separates, the oxidization is quickly obvious. With dye-based media, it's almost instant. When pressed media, it's harder to see with the naked eye. Discs are essentially vacuum sealed.

Move to wall with minimal light and heat. Try to put on an interior wall, on "that side" of the house (shaded, least sun, etc) if exterior wall.
Sorry i am dum dum i though that the website make a cache of the images posted, i uploaded again, i use this time the upload option of the website

Can you confirm me for reference if there is a potential problem of reading of these discs or in the future?

And about the wall, yes! It's a internal one, so the windows it's covered by a shelving so light not get easily

And talking about shelving.... it's recommended to put glass doors?

With a little space open to let air flow between the cases and the outside but let the dust away, my idea is to make a handmade shelving, but i don't know if put glass doors (in theory blocks UV) is good and which wood is recommended to be used, to avoid humidity problems at all (wood absorbs humidity)

A dehumidifier all day (except for the night, i need to sleep, and where i have my discs is in my beedrom so... xD) running is another thing i am thinking

Sorry again for the big pictures, and i would appreciate your help

Edit: About cleaning discs... how can be safely cleaned? I use a microfiber cloth but the grime and fingerprints of older discs are difficult to remove it just with that (on second-hand for example), alcohol isopropyl or water can be a good option?

And about scratches... resurface the disc is a good option too? Or could with the time delaminate the disc?


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Last edited by ZetaSuprema; 05-16-2021 at 09:24 PM.
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  #12  
05-16-2021, 09:34 PM
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It's hard to see what's in those images, not great photos. Most look fine. That last one has an oddity in the inner ring, but again hard to see.

Glass shelves = allows light pass = no.
Then again, if air flow needed, you really have no choice.

Yes, isopropyl alcohol, soft cotton cloth. Microfiber can still scratch, use high pile if microfiber. Never paper towels (ie, rubbing tree bark on a disc!)

Deep scratches = resurface.
But that's only viable 1-2 times, before the disc starts to go out of spec.

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05-16-2021, 09:51 PM
ZetaSuprema ZetaSuprema is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
It's hard to see what's in those images, not great photos. Most look fine. That last one has an oddity in the inner ring, but again hard to see.

Glass shelves = allows light pass = no.
Then again, if air flow needed, you really have no choice.

Yes, isopropyl alcohol, soft cotton cloth. Microfiber can still scratch, use high pile if microfiber. Never paper towels (ie, rubbing tree bark on a disc!)

Deep scratches = resurface.
But that's only viable 1-2 times, before the disc starts to go out of spec.
The second and the last picture are the same disc, i uploaded again, it's difficult to see it but it's a strange mark, the first photo is safe? It's looks like early delamination but maybe is glue in the inner disc, i suppose that for the bubbles

And the pinholes, well that's ilustrative, we talked before, that's how it looks like

Thanks for the info, about the wood... could potential be bad for the humidity absortion to made a cabinet for the discs? Although it would be varnished

Talking about this, i usually live at a place at 18°C in winter and 28°C on summer with 60% of middle term all the year, with the door of the room closed so and at night humidity rises 69% at much so... could be this humidity a danger?

Basically ask this to find a dehumidifier that turn on and turn off when reach at for example 40/50% and it's silent if i have to turn in on at night, or could safe to leave the door open while I sleep even if the humidity rises to 69% during the hours of sleep?

For me it would be one less problem, since the electrical cost would be there and as the truth i would sleep better xD

The problem it's that the flat is old, so although my room controls the terms of humidity and temperature, if I open the door, the air mixes through the rest of the rooms and it is a non-stop of ups and downs, although my room is not hermetically closed, it has exit and entrance grilles of air

What would you recomend?


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  #14  
05-16-2021, 09:57 PM
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With no AC, you're probably doing all you can do.

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05-16-2021, 10:02 PM
ZetaSuprema ZetaSuprema is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
With no AC, you're probably doing all you can do.
Well, we have it (broken but this winter xD) but cost a lot of electricity so...

Which ranges could be safe of temperature and humidity more or less?

Basically for the deshumidifier case, i have one but it's really little, so i have to find another more big

At what i said, i live in a tropical climate? xD
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