Verbatim DL Media - DataLifePlus -vs- Non-DataLifePlus

[pacocap]

Up until now I have been buying only Verbatim (MCC) SL DVD+R media from Sams Club because it was convenient, cheap, and reliable. Recently I went there to get a new supply only to find that they had replaced the best Verbatim MCC SLs with mediocre-at-best Memorex Indian-made discs. While I was there I was surprised to learn that 1) - they had DL discs and 2) - they were so cheap - less than $40 for 50. So I bought a spindle and took it home. I had to read the disc data to find out that they were second-tier Moser Baer discs. So they are going back and now I want to buy some Verbatim DLs online. I have read as much as I can stand about the various manufacturers and brand names of Verbatim discs here in the forums. Now I just want to buy some discs. I read somewhat conflicting views on what is good and what is not. Clearly DataLifePlus seems to be the first choice but what about lesser choices? Again, I see discussions and listings of the various manufacturers that actually make the discs and, one post (http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/show...04&postcount=2) goes so far as to say that

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as long as the discs are the "good ones" (NOT Value Series, NOT Life Series), then it honestly doesn't matter

So my question is, what is the difference between the DataLifePlus series, current PNs 95123 and 96862, at around $1.75 each in packs of 50, and the other lesser brands, PNs 95310, 96542, and 96577, at around $1.00 to $1.40 each in packs of 30 to 50?

Please answer only if you have knowledge of or experience with these brands. No speculation please. I need hard data so I can decide muy pronto, man.

[pacocap]

Here are manufacturer's links to current DVD+R DL discs I am talking about with links to best prices I could find:

Verbatim 95123 DVD+R DL 8.5GB 2.4X DataLifePlus White Inkjet Printable 20pk Spindle



$34.99 (Amazon)

Verbatim 96862 DVD+R DL 8.5GB 8X DataLifePlus White Inkjet Printable 50pk Spindle



$79.99 Meritline

Verbatim 95310 DVD+R DL 8.5GB 2.4X Branded 20pk Spindle



$27.85 (Amazon)

Verbatim 96542 DVD+R DL 8.5GB 8X Branded 30pk Spindle



$29.99 (Amazon)

Verbatim 96577 DVD+R DL 8.5GB 2.4X Branded 50pk Spindle



$59.99 (newegg)

[admin]

DataLifePlus, DataLife and AZO are all marketing terms or sub-brands within Verbatim. Right now, they all mean the same thing -- the "good discs" made by Mitsubishi. (AZO is actually a trademark for the dye materials used by Mitsubishi.)

The ONLY differences in the discs you've linked to is:

• burn speed -- 2.4x rated vs 8x rated
• surface materials -- inkjet vs branded

... and that's it.

The 2.4x discs are best burned at 4x in Pioneer drives, or 2.4x in anything else. The 8x discs are also best burned at 4x or maybe 6x -- better burns, less fails. DL media is still somewhat picky/touchy, even in the highest quality discs made.

Inkjet surfaces made for printers, branded surfaces for not printing. You can handwrite with a nice Sharpie market on either one just fine -- I do that all the time.

Those are all good discs. Buy based on price, the number of discs you want, and whether you need inkjet surface or not. Speed should not be a consideration -- not really.

I would suggest Amazon and Meritline have the best prices and shipping speeds. Those are the stores I've come to trust most in the past decade of blank DVD buying.

[pacocap]

Thank you kindly for your detailed answer. This is good news indeed. And I agree with you that speed doesn't matter and that discs are better burned at lower than max speed any way, though I don't understand why you recommend burning 2.4X at 4X in a Pioneer drive.

BTW I think you might maybe make a statement about the quality of these various Verbatim sub-brands on the main Blank DVD Media Quality page. It was the discussion of the various manufacturing plants for the same brand that led to much confusion about this for me, and I suspect, probably others as well.

Thanks for this site and the valuable information.

[pacocap]

I should also ask, is the extra cost of the DataLifePlus brand really justified? Is it that much more reliable?

[admin]

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speed doesn't matter and that discs are better burned at lower than max speed any way

Just be sure not to confuse this with "burn at the lowest speed available" -- which is just as bad as burning too fast. Discs are rated for a certain range more so than a specific speed. Of course, to keep it simple, the rating is almost always shown as a single number representing the maximum within that range. (The max is shown because consumers falsely think "faster is better" for pretty much anything.)

Lower than max, but within the acceptable range, is the best advice. For 16x DVD-R, for example, 12x or 8x is generally better for burn quality. Burning at 18x-24x is, quite frankly, stupid and ridiculous, saving mere seconds at best, with great risk to burn errors.

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though I don't understand why you recommend burning 2.4X at 4X in a Pioneer drive.

This goes back about 5 years in time. In those early days, Pioneer really had the only drive that could burn DVD+R DL with any success.

If you relate the rotational velocities of 8x-16x SL discs, the most prevalent media of the time, to DVD+R DL, you'll see that 2.4x is really slow comparatively. A 2.4x DL is more like a 4x SL, while a 4x DL is equivalent to an 8x SL. The 2.4x media can burn fine at faster than 2.4x, assuming the drive works well. Therein lies the issue -- most burners are crappy with 2.4x discs, and honestly with DL burning in general. Most drives are locked in at 2.4x or 4x by the drive manufacturers for a reason. Only a few select burners, mostly Pioneers and some NECs (anything using the NEC chipset), burn fine at 4x. The 6x speed is pushing it, and has a high coaster ratio.

The next disc from Mitsubishi was a 8x DL. Many assume the speed "skipped" 4x speed (in comparison to SL media lineage), but it's not really correct. Based on the evidence, DL media started with 4x in mind, and it was achieved for many burners. The 2.4x is a step-down to insure better burning quality among various burners.

With 8x discs, there seems to be wider acceptance for burners. And while many burner makers could probably go back and allow for faster-than-2.4x speeds on the first generation discs, it's likely that manufacturers consider such a move "backwards" because it addresses "older" tech that will phase out anyway.

The conundrum, however, is that 2.4x media is still manufactured and sold. And the 2.4x/"up to 6x" labeling tends to confuse people regularly.

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is the extra cost of the DataLifePlus brand really justified?

Don't confuse the issue.

Verbatim is a subsidiary company/brand owned by Mitsubishi Chemicals Corp (a.k.a. Mitsubishi Kagaku Kabushiki-gaisha ~ Mitsubishi Kagaku Media), and is part of the "Mitsubishi" family of companies that is also known for motorcycles, cars, etc.

For most of its CD/DVD blanks history, Verbatim has exclusively used media manufactured by it's parent company. The monikers "DataLife" and "DataLifePlus" have come to mean different things through the years. As such, they've basically lost all meaning.

• Side note: If this conversation of branding interests you, see http://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum/show...ntity-2390.htm.
  There's a complex discussion of marketing and branding going on there right now.
  

In the 2x era, "DataLife" meant CMC discs, while "DataLifePlus" meant MCC discs. The CMC usage only lasted a short while, less than a year. For all of the 4x and 8x generation, all Verbatim discs were MCC discs (excluding the European "pearl" series discs that were Taiyo Yuden). Most of the last 5 years worth of 16x generation were also MCC discs.

DataLife and DataLifePlus doesn't even appear on all packages anymore. Many simply use "AZO" now. All three markings more or less mean "Mitsubishi discs" right now. This could always change, since the sub-brand markings don't seem to have a historical continuity.

The discs to avoid are the "Life Series" and "Value Series" discs that are not Mitsubishi media, even though it's under the Verbatim branding. Life/Value discs are low-grade budget crap from Ritek or CMC, mediocre second-grade discs at best. For the price, and used in the right contexts (duplication only, never masters/archives), those are fine for the value. But I'd rather spend another $5-10 and locate Mitsubishi Verbatims or switch to Taiyo Yuden discs.

The extra $5-10 price for Mitsubishi is absolutely justified over the non-MCC discs (Life/Value Series media).

[pacocap]

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Originally Posted by admin

Just be sure not to confuse this with "burn at the lowest speed available" -- which is just as bad as burning too fast. Most drives are locked in at 2.4x or 4x by the drive manufacturers for a reason.

Yeah well my Plextor is locked in at 2.4X. I haven't yet tried it with DL media.

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Don't confuse the issue.
For most of its CD/DVD blanks history, Verbatim has exclusively used media manufactured by it's parent company. The monikers "DataLife" and "DataLifePlus" have come to mean different things through the years. As such, they've basically lost all meaning.
DataLife and DataLifePlus doesn't even appear on all packages anymore. Many simply use "AZO" now. All three markings more or less mean "Mitsubishi discs" right now. This could always change, since the sub-brand markings don't seem to have a historical continuity.

But the DataLifePlus (I haven't come across DataLife) are consistently more money. $1.60-$1.75 each at best as opposed to $1.00-$1.40 each for the other brands mentioned. Even from the same suppliers. So why the price increase? There must be some quality difference. It may be not that significant but it must be there, else why would people pay more? The plain black on white labels also make them appear more "professional".

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Side note: If this conversation of branding interests you, see http://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum/show...ntity-2390.htm.
There's a complex discussion of marketing and branding going on there right now.[URL="http://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum/showthread.php/online-branding-identity-2390.html"]

I will definitely check this out.

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The discs to avoid are the "Life Series" and "Value Series" discs that are not Mitsubishi media, even though it's under the Verbatim branding. Life/Value discs are low-grade budget crap from Ritek or CMC, mediocre second-grade discs at best. For the price, and used in the right contexts (duplication only, never masters/archives), those are fine for the value. But I'd rather spend another $5-10 and locate Mitsubishi Verbatims or switch to Taiyo Yuden discs.

The extra $5-10 price for Mitsubishi is absolutely justified over the non-MCC discs (Life/Value Series media).

I am using them for DVD backup so I'd rather spend the extra bucks for sure.

[admin]

Inkjet surfaces cost more than branded surfaces.

[pacocap]

Quote:

Originally Posted by admin

Inkjet surfaces cost more than branded surfaces.

So is that the only difference? Is the AZO coating the same?

Another question. Are the 8X discs inherently higher quality than the 2.4X, i.e., given that both are available for the same or similar price, should you always buy the higher speed discs? This assumes that you will not burn at the highest speed as discussed above.

[admin]

From the links/images you posted, yes, the inkjet surface is the only difference.

AZO is not a coating. AZO is the name of the metallic-stabilized dyes used by Mitsubishi for CD-R and DVD-R.

The 8x discs are not necessarily better, no. There is some empirical evidence that shows the 2.4x media may be superior to 8x discs, but the variables are not always fully defined, so the statements are inconclusive in my opinion. I would suggest either disc is fine for your use. And I would burn 8x discs at 4x, using a known-good burner.

My personal preference is for 2.4x media, but it's mostly due to price, easy availability, the ability to burn 4x in my Pioneer drives, and that I have about 200 of them on the shelf. I have nothing against the 8x discs, however.

[pacocap]

Quote:

Originally Posted by admin

AZO is not a coating. AZO is the name of the metallic-stabilized dyes used by Mitsubishi for CD-R and DVD-R.

When I read things like

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the organic recording layer for BD-R LTH TYPE media can be applied using the same dye spin coating process as CD-R or DVD-R media

Source:

Verbatim Showcases Expanding Line of Blu-Ray Media at CES

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A new push–pull azo dye-doped polymer material has been developed for short wavelength write-once optical recording by means of a spin-coating process.

Source:

Thermal and optical characterization of push–pull azo dye-doped poly(methylmethacrylate) thin film as short wavelength optical recording media

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The dye is then applied using spin coating

Source:

DISC CONSTRUCTION AND MANUFACTURING

I don't know what else to call it.

[admin]

The dye is spin-coated onto the platter during disc construction. But it's not a "coating" -- it's a dye.

There's a few videos on Youtube that show CD-R being spin-coated at the lacquer stage. The lacquer could be considered a "coating", however, as that is the function it serves -- to coat the foil layer.

Several parts of a disc are spin-coated during manufacturing.

[pacocap]

Quote:

Originally Posted by admin

The dye is spin-coated onto the platter during disc construction. But it's not a "coating" -- it's a dye.

Then it becomes a question of semantics. The dye molecules must be suspended in a carrier of prescribed viscosity which is then spun on at a predetermined speed in order to produce an even layer of given thickness. I worked in the semiconductor business

[admin]

Semantics? Not really. I'd say that it's more of an issue of proper context.

The dye is not meant to be a coating. Indeed, it's the primary material that gives the item functionality. I'd say use of "coating" for the general public would be misleading, as "coating" has a protective connotation to it.

Being from the semiconductor business, you're taking the engineering perspective. So in that light, I can see how "coating" is more accurate from your vantage point.

Jargon vs non-jargon, to a degree.

[pacocap]

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Originally Posted by admin

Semantics? Not really. I'd say that it's more of an issue of proper context.

Come on. The context, "proper" or otherwise:

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Is the AZO coating the same?

should be fairly self-explanatory to anyone I think. Am I getting the exact same AZO coating or layer, if you prefer, regardless of the branding? It's that simple.

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The dye is not meant to be a coating. Indeed, it's the primary material that gives the item functionality. I'd say use of "coating" for the general public would be misleading, as "coating" has a protective connotation to it.

As I already pointed out, you need a carrier for the dye. You don't just spray it on. The result of any spin-coating process is a coating of some kind. The same dye could be used in different coating processes which could produce very different results.

[admin]

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Am I getting the exact same AZO coating or layer, if you prefer, regardless of the branding?

All Mitsubishi media uses AZO metallic stabilizers in the dyes, yes.
That would encompass DataLife, DataLifePlus and AZO sub-brands right now, yes.

[pacocap]

Quote:

Originally Posted by admin

All Mitsubishi media uses AZO metallic stabilizers in the dyes, yes.
That would encompass DataLife, DataLifePlus and AZO sub-brands right now, yes.

¡Excelente!

I have already ordered the 94812s from Meritline. BTW when you check out, it does tell you that you are getting 2x50pks.

I was about to order some DVD+R DL 8.5GB 8X Branded 30pk Spindle but the price just went from $29.99 to $39.99 in one day from both newegg and Amazon. I'll have to do a new search or wait another day maybe. Prices seem to change daily.

Thanks for all the information and thanks again for this wonderful site.

[admin]

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Prices seem to change daily.

Yes they do, and often for no obvious reasoning. I remember tracking the prices of a Nikon D700 earlier this year, and it could swing $100 at any given time, be in stock, out of stock, etc. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...SIN=B001BTCSI6

Online prices can be like riding a bucking bronco.

[admin]

Best deal I really see today is $26.50 (free shipping) for 2.4x 20-packs from Supermediastore.
I didn't compare to Amazon.

[pacocap]

Quote:

Originally Posted by admin

Yes they do, and often for no obvious reasoning. Online prices can be like riding a bucking bronco.

You'd think they were auctioning off gold or something. I imagine the wholesalers raised their prices on NEW stock so the retailers all raised them to what they would have to if they had bought new stock at the current price, despite the fact that they bought the old stock at a price which allowed them to charge the previous price and still make a desired profit margin. They are trying to see if the market will bear the new price. If it won't then they will have to lower it but I don't expect it to go to the previous low any time soon. I'll wait a few more days just to see.