Panasonic DMR-ES10 review, with proc amps

[msgohan]

So AVISource("vivanco.avi",pixel_type="YUY2") actually works for you? For me it throws an error message because the Blackmagic 4:2:2 decoder only allows RGB output.

[Goldwingfahrer]

AVISource ("H: \ vivanco.avi") #, pixel_type = "YUY2")

only # works the UYVY edition

capture with Blackmagic Media Express [BM 4: 2: 2]

with the Canopus NX or via HDMI with Edius is the stream in YUY2.
but via HDMI it comes only with the DMR EH65
---------------------------

test...ADVC110 S-Video-colorbar--->vivanco---> Canopus NX

[Goldwingfahrer]

The Vivanco I do not need when I'm working with the NX card.
CVBS or S-Video

there are even more settings

[msgohan]

Vivanco_NX.avi confirms that the Vivanco can output extra-high levels which the DMR-ES10, sadly, clips.

Thanks! It's good to know that a proc amp can be used to generate these levels for testing rather than having to find an overexposed tape.

If you have time at some point and are willing, I would also appreciate a test of your Panasonic DMR-EH to confirm that it also clips such input.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldwingfahrer

AVISource ("H: \ vivanco.avi") #, pixel_type = "YUY2")

only # works the UYVY edition

So you have the same conversion-to-RGB issue with the Blackmagic decoder as I do. One way to confirm the pixel type output by the decoder is to place Info() directly after AVISource in your script.

I have the NX myself, if you recall our conversation previously regarding its lack of jitter correction for NTSC.

[sanlyn]

This is all quite surreal. I don't seem to be having any of the problems described. I don't even know where or when I could put this information to use. But it's been fascinating enough for me to save a copy of all of it in the event I encounter other users with the same problems.

[lordsmurf]

I noticed a high variation in luma between the JVC S-VHS, Panasonic S-VHS (with and without TBC), the ES10, the AVT-8710/CTB-100, and the DataVideo TBC-100/1000 -- and that's outright ignoring other hardware that I could list. My issue is with homemade tapes more than not, especially anything filmed in overly bright or dim light. There's some sort of tape-based issue at play.

The AG-1980P further confounds with capacitor issues, as you're never 100% sure if the caps are at fault. I'm having that problem right now.

Sometimes the ES10 doesn't correct really wiggly tapes (bad horizontal jitter), and is best for top-frame tearing use. I experienced that just today. The wiggles caused frame drops and inserts.

It's obnoxious. Sometimes I just want to throw the tape against a wall.

[Goldwingfahrer]

Quote:

One way to confirm the pixel type output by the decoder is to place Info() directly after AVISource in your script.

as requested

[Goldwingfahrer]

Quote:

So AVISource("vivanco.avi",pixel_type="YUY2") actually works for you? For me it throws an error message because the Blackmagic 4:2:2 decoder only allows RGB output.

solution see screen "A_solution"
original article

post 4
http://forum.gleitz.info/showthread.php?47141

Post 6 + 7
http://forum.gleitz.info/showthread....drastic+codecs

Post 2
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=140820

[msgohan]

That's the setting I meant when I referred to VDub using its own decoders. I thought it was enabled by default, but now I don't know.

There was something in the extremely long readme file for the Drastic codecs that scared me away from using them. I forget what it was. Can you have Drastic installed at the same time as Blackmagic's decoders?

[Jarvis]

Checking this from my phone right now so can't look at all the tests. But thanks so much to you guys for actively participating in the thread, I appreciate it.

On a separate note, I made a suggestion in the past that the forum should have a mobile version, but it was knocked back. Would DigitalFAQ reconsider? It is very inconvenient to use the desktop version on mobile displays.

Anyway, moving onward -

Quote:

Originally Posted by msgohan

Vivanco_NX.avi confirms that the Vivanco can output extra-high levels which the DMR-ES10, sadly, clips.

Thanks! It's good to know that a proc amp can be used to generate these levels for testing rather than having to find an overexposed tape.

The main tests I'd like to see are
1. How the ES10 handles an overexposed video after levels are lowered by the Vivanco
2. Whether the Vivanco negates the ES10 line correction. I'm assuming it won't if Vivanco doesn't frame sync, but then I'm not educated on how proc amps operate internally and whether that's the only factor.

Regarding #1, I understand color bars are a convenient method for testing, but they do not account for the constantly fluctuating analog signal which may be a factor in how levels are handled. My biggest fear concerning the ES10 is that it will always revert to the same range irrespective of proc amp adjustments. Based on the footage it may be an acceptable result or it may not.

Based on tests I've read by VH member 2Bdecided, if I understand correctly, the ADVC-110 is one device that does just that. As I said before, its white peak is slightly wrong, acceptable but still imperfect. Refer to this thread over at VideoHelp.

An excerpt:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2Bdecided

You can see a transitory effect if you change the gain rapidly, but the ADVC110 quickly adapts to counteract the change, giving an identical result over a very wide range of gain settings.

I'm fairly sure the ADVC110 is measuring the sync pulse amplitude, and AGC-ing the entire signal to bring it back to where it thinks it should be.

So I'm hoping that is not the case with the ES10.
Out of my hardware collection, I've found my JVC DR-M10 is the standard for capturing full luminance. That's what I'm using as my reference for other devices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by msgohan

If you have time at some point and are willing, I would also appreciate a test of your Panasonic DMR-EH to confirm that it also clips such input.

Yes I agree that is a good idea, would also like to see that. I'll also be performing some more tests that haven't been done yet. Not sure if they'll be of use but I've got some ideas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

This is all quite surreal. I don't seem to be having any of the problems described.

If you don't mind, what was your combination of hardware, and types of footage, when you were using the ES10?

[msgohan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarvis

The main tests I'd like to see are
1. How the ES10 handles an overexposed video after levels are lowered by the Vivanco
2. Whether the Vivanco negates the ES10 line correction. I'm assuming it won't if Vivanco doesn't frame sync, but then I'm not educated on how proc amps operate internally and whether that's the only factor

If Goldwingfahrer doesn't have an overexposed tape available, perhaps one could be generated and then captured to fulfill both of these tests at the same time.

DVD test pattern with vertical lines -> Vivanco with luminance cranked -> record on VHS

Then:
Play high-luma VHS on different VCR -> Vivanco with luminance lowered -> DMR-ES10 -> capture device

The confounding factor would be how the VCR's AGC handles the overly-bright input at the first stage. If it does some clipping on the recording side, or lowers gain to bring the bright source into standard range, things will get confusing.

Quote:

My biggest fear concerning the ES10 is that it will always revert to the same range irrespective of proc amp adjustments. Based on the footage it may be an acceptable result or it may not.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but the user Mini-Me on VH posted about how he used his proc amp to prevent his Philips DVDR3475 from clipping and flickering due to overly bright tapes.

EDIT: I also wouldn't take 2Bdecided's testing to indicate that placing a proc amp before the ADVC110 is ineffective at reducing the contrast. He said this was a "simple video amplifier". I take this to mean it's amplifying or reducing the entire video waveform without the ability to target the actual active picture level.

[Goldwingfahrer]

post 29

Quote:

Can you have Drastic installed at the same time as Blackmagic's decoders?

yes

http://www.drastic.tv/index.php?opti...ions&Itemid=95

I can send the email address of Mikey Lee Jones them

[Goldwingfahrer]

Quote:

If Goldwingfahrer doesn't have an overexposed tape available, perhaps one could be generated and then captured to fulfill both of these tests at the same time.

DVD test pattern with vertical lines -> Vivanco with luminance cranked -> record on VHS

Then:
Play high-luma VHS on different VCR -> Vivanco with luminance lowered -> DMR-ES10 -> capture device

I work at the moment a lot of capture ..

a recording on VHS tape can do that create itself.
There are many devices that output a standard color bars

Vivanco was just an example
it also works with a Kramer SP-11D
or potentiometer adjustment in the recorder

[Jarvis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I noticed a high variation in luma between the JVC S-VHS, Panasonic S-VHS (with and without TBC), the ES10, the AVT-8710/CTB-100, and the DataVideo TBC-100/1000 -- and that's outright ignoring other hardware that I could list. My issue is with homemade tapes more than not, especially anything filmed in overly bright or dim light. There's some sort of tape-based issue at play.

Spot on, I've experienced just the same. I don't think any one of my devices outputs the exact same range of luma. The DR-M10 though, as I said, is the best of the lot at reading levels. I bought a couple of the JVC DVD recorders a long while ago under your recommendation, a good combo when paired with the JVC VCRs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

The AG-1980P further confounds with capacitor issues, as you're never 100% sure if the caps are at fault. I'm having that problem right now.

The NV-FS200 is the closest PAL equivalent of the AG-1980 and if I recall, one or even both of my units clipped luma with TBC active. A logical reason for it would be that as an editing VCR, it's programmed to legalize values. I know one of the units has deteriorated a bit and applies a green tint to the video too. This is one model where behaviour is wildly different depending on the condition of the unit. It's been a while since I even plugged them in now, I mostly use JVCs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Sometimes the ES10 doesn't correct really wiggly tapes (bad horizontal jitter), and is best for top-frame tearing use. I experienced that just today. The wiggles caused frame drops and inserts.

I've personally never seen a tape where the ES10 didn't straighten out horizontal jitter. However there was one rare case where it caused constant vertical jitter on one scene, and I actually had to activate the JVC's TBC to stabilize it. Either that or one of my JVCs has a problem with the TBC indicator and I may have actually been turning the JVC TBC off. I can't remember now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by msgohan

If Goldwingfahrer doesn't have an overexposed tape available, perhaps one could be generated and then captured to fulfill both of these tests at the same time.

Yes, that setup you posted looks like a good solution.

Quote:

Originally Posted by msgohan

I also wouldn't take 2Bdecided's testing to indicate that placing a proc amp before the ADVC110 is ineffective at reducing the contrast. He said this was a "simple video amplifier". I take this to mean it's amplifying or reducing the entire video waveform without the ability to target the actual active picture level.

Reading back on it that sounds correct. I don't think I thought out my reply at the time, as it should be possible to reduce the level. I've got a lot of testing to do, hopefully get a chance in the coming days. I think I'm also going to buy one of those Vivanco proc amps. It's either that or a Vidicraft I've had my eye on, since I like the metering feature.

Does anyone know if Vidicraft proc amps eg. PRC-100 are PAL compatible?
If someone has an answer please let me know asap.

[Goldwingfahrer]

Quote:

The NV-FS200 is the closest PAL equivalent of the AG-1980

Yes I have the 200 also

Quote:

I know one of the units has deteriorated a bit and applies a green tint to the video too.

but these were only the newer model
I had the 121 and the latest 930
Both green + darker image

Quote:

Vidicraft proc amps

Did you mean something ??
http://www.vidicraft.com/VSC-2112.pdf

http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/2...imate-detailer

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarvis

Quote:

If you don't mind, what was your combination of hardware, and types of footage, when you were using the ES10?

Sorry, I thought I replied to this. I guess I lost track somehow.

vcr's (excluding those not used for 3 years or more): Panasonic AG-1980P, PV-S4670 SVHS (circa 1996), PV-4665 (circa 1996), rebuilt SONY SLV-585HF (circa 1990). I used JVC in the past but they didn't last long and started eating tapes.

frame tbc (when required): AVT-8710, new in 2004. Pumps gamma somewhat, but I can't say it has been excessive.

pass-thru tbc: Panasonic DMR-ES10 and DMR-ES15, Toshiba RD-XS34.

proc amp: Sign Video PA-100 (new in 2005).

capture: ATI AIW 7500 and 9600XT AGP Radeons, VirtualDub capture to lossless huffyuv.

Tapes: occasional homemade analog tapes from sister and other relations, some made by pros (wedding, bar mitzvah, baptism, etc), the last of which I digitized about 18 months ago. Several ancient retail VHS prints (one obviously trashed by Macrovision). Hundreds of hours of home EP/SP tapes recorded off cable tv, still have several SP and SLP tapes. Except for bad lighting situations, the home camera tapes tended to be slightly underexposed, or maybe they're just old, or like my sister they use batteries until the Bunny dies. Several years ago I worked with some DV. The experience kept me away from DV ever since. Analog has its own problems, but I don't get bright "spikes" or burnout all over the place. I see it often with DV. When someone asks me about transferring DV, I suggest digitalfaq.

[Jarvis]

Sanlyn,
Thanks for posting your hardware / capture info. It doesn't look anything out of the ordinary however so I don't see how the ES10 issue could've been omitted. If you still own it though then it's certainly worth another look.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

Several years ago I worked with some DV. The experience kept me away from DV ever since. Analog has its own problems, but I don't get bright "spikes" or burnout all over the place. I see it often with DV. When someone asks me about transferring DV, I suggest digitalfaq.

Please understand that the DV format is in no way relevant to the issues in this thread. The discussion here is that ES10 does not capture the correct luminance. If you recall post #1, it shows that the JVC DR-M10 DVD recorder and the ADVC-110 capture near identical luma range, which eliminates ADVC from being a variable. Both of them are exemplary in that regard, though the former more so. The ES10 has also been tested with other (non-DV) hardware and produced the same problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldwingfahrer

I had the 121 and the latest 930
Both green + darker image

I don't own 121 or 930, but the green tint on my NV-FS200 appears to be a result of degradation. I don't believe it is inherent to the model.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldwingfahrer

Did you mean something ??
http://www.vidicraft.com/VSC-2112.pdf

http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/2...imate-detailer

Not the VSC-2112, as I need a proc amp without frame sync. Otherwise the ES10 line correction will not work.
Thanks for the VideoHelp link though. There seem to be very mixed reviews about PAL compatibility for Vidicraft / Signvideo gear. It would be nice to get a definitive answer if possible, the model I'm currently looking at is PRC-100.

[Goldwingfahrer]

use cash cow ;-)

http://www.signvideo.com/products/pr...o-proc-amp.htm

Feeder ----> passthrough Pana AG7750 ----> ES10
or
Feeder ---> ES10 ----> passthrough Pana AG7750

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarvis

Please understand that the DV format is in no way relevant to the issues in this thread. The discussion here is that ES10 does not capture the correct luminance.

I'm not using what you're using, other than the ES10. My point is that it works properly for me when I use it. With or without the ES10 I get the same incoming capture histogram and I make the same luma adjustments to suit the tapes I'm working with. This is based on hundreds of hours over the years of capturing VHS with the gear I listed, and with similar gear before I owned an ES10. Before I got my ES10 and ES15 I used an ES20 and the Toshiba I mentioned, but neither were powerful enough as a tbc for really bad tapes. So many initial histogram readings over the years have been so similar that I use those settings as defaults. When I do encounter differences it's always the VCR and/or specific tapes that require adjustment to the defaults.

Your notes are still of great interest, even if I don't have the components to repeat your tests.

[msgohan]

I saw this the other day: http://www.tgrantphoto.com/sales/ind...n-modification

I would be worried that the unprocessed image bottom would negatively impact the ES10 AGC.