Ideal PC and OS for digitizing VHS?

[goofy11]

This website is a wealth of information regarding digital video, but among the various articles and guides, I haven't found anything about the ideal PC setup. This has been a bit surprising since I've discovered that the PC and corresponding capture software are critical elements to a successful workflow. Perhaps this is because the range of acceptable PC's is too broad with too many variables, but it would be nice to have some information regarding general recommended specs.

From reading through a variety of forum posts, it seems Windows XP and Windows 7 are the preferred operating systems (in that order?), but would love to confirm this. Aside from that, I don't have a good sense for recommended performance specs (32 vs 64 bit, RAM, CPU, Graphics Card, HDD, etc.). I first tried using relatively new PC's running Windows 11. No-go. Next, I've acquired an old 32-bit machine running Windows XP Media Center Edition, but have been told it may not have enough horsepower.

So what is the ideal PC setup and how do you get it? Is there a range of computer build years that seems best (e.g. 2010-2015 model years)? Are people buying 5-10 year old computers (that likely have Windows 10) and installing Windows 7 or XP? Just curious what people's approach has been on getting a good PC setup going?

[lordsmurf]

There is no ideal, mostly due to card and OS, as well as others like costs. So many variables.

XP/7 best -- no specific order for some cards, such as the card you have.

XP MCE is not XP. That may be your issue there. The current hardware may be passable (not great), with the OS being the actual issue.

It somewhat depends on budget.
Do you want best?
Note that I'm not suggesting some ridiculous/expensive/fancy gamer play toy, but a decent work system for reasonable costs. Just not dumpster dive costs, not Walmart costs, not a limited budget setup, no MicroPCs or netbooks, etc. But it has to be built, it's not ready-made. Or find somebody experienced to build it for you (not just a random kid down the street).

[goofy11]

I found a few paths to building a "customized" desktop relatively inexpensively. One is a local pc repair shop that also sells refurbished machines. They can modify the machines by request.

I also found a guy that refurbs pc's as a side hustle. He has a Dell OptiPlex 7010 (2012 release date) with i5 3.20 GHz quad core, 16GB RAM, 500GB hard drive, and a fresh install of Windows 7. Price is $70. This seems like a pretty good option, so planning to pick it up today to give it a try.

[lordsmurf]

Don't get ahead of yourself, don't start buying random things...

The Dell OptiPlex 7010 is maybe a starting point, but not a stock system. For starters, it must have a boot SSD, and a separate second large 2.5" HDD (or cheap Leven 2tb/4tb SSD). That exact 7010 also has known issues when it has 16gb in all 4 RAM slots -- and you only need 8gb anyway (actually not even that much, not for mere capture).

This is essentially dumpster diving for systems. That only works to acquire parts, a base.

That Dell, for example, has crap power supplies (loud heat pumps). Zero space also traps heat, bad for all internals. You'd do vastly better to migrate the system guts to a normal MicroATX desktop case. A case with plenty of front/top air vents, and bottom mounted power supply (but NOT fan-down!). Dell does use custom connectors, but you can get adapters from Harbin Repairs.

[goofy11]

Ok, thanks for the additional information. Having some of these "rule of thumb" recommendations is quite helpful. I shared this back with the guy selling the Dell 7010, and he replied that he has several variations on hand that may be a better fit (though I'm sure not perfect). He has another Dell 7010 with a "minitower" / bigger case. (pics attached)

He can set it up with a new 512GB SSD boot drive along with second used 2tb HDD. This one would be $110. Again with Windows 7.

Thoughts on this? I'm sure I could take the time and spend even more money to build the perfect machine, but I'm also not sure I need perfect (law of diminishing returns), and I'm trying to keep my costs manageable given my current circumstances and being new to this.

If my choices are between:

1. $110 for a machine that checks most of the boxes and is "pretty good"
--OR--
2. $1,000 for the perfect digital conversion pc

I'd go with #1 at this point, again largely due to budgetary constraints. But feel free to tell me that's a bad decision. I value the wisdom of the experts here and don't want to be doomed for failure.

[lordsmurf]

There is a lot of play between 110 and 1000.
- That $110 machine is going to give you grief, I guarantee it.
- That $1000 machine can be heavily pared down, cut corners due to need to save costs.

That Dell desktop is still just a crap Dell case. What I refer to is a non-OEM (non-proprietary) case, such as Fractak Designs (~$50 from Newegg). That's cheap for a case.

The system cooler needs to also be something quality, such as the Cooler Master 212-EVO or comparable (Thermaltake, Noctua, few others).

Better PSU can be a mere $35 for a Apevia from Amazon.

Not just any random SSD or hard drive. You don't want some cheap/loud/slow problem drive. Yes, it adds some costs. But again, it's the difference between a decent tool, and dumpster dived hardware.

I've rescued systems from the side of the road, from friends/family trash cans. It was good for parts, but only to build something better. Trying to rehab their POS was not going to work. Remember: these things were junked for a reason. Don't simply punish yourself trying to use junk, but rather recycle it into something better. They had money to junk and buy new. You can do the upgrade that they rejected (lack of time, lazy, needing better/newer, whatever).

As you stated yourself, you're new to all this. You don't know what you don't know. Don't let money cloud your judgment, push you into a longer term bad situation with wasted money (negative economics). Get something more ideal now, not later. People have a bad habit of punishing themselves with junk, having problems, then just quitting video because it's "too hard", But the "too hard" part had nothing to do with video, everything to do with willingness to spend some bucks on good/proper tools.

That $110 system is a starting point. But better case, cooling, power needed. This is a known Dell OEM system issue, for literal decades now. Add about $200 for these parts and the Dell adapters, and then you have something that won't fail you. These decade-old Dell boxes really are crap. But the motherboard, CPU, RAM ... all good to reuse.

I know a lot about Dell systems because I've rebuilt many in this way, as capture systems for others.

[goofy11]

Finally circling back on this. Because there was some uncertainty about the Dell system, I decided to pass. I've got someone local that will build a custom new machine with the following specs.

CPU: i5-3470
CPU Cooler: ThermalTake Assassin https://a.co/d/3hsvSXr
Ram: 16gb 1600mhz
Storage: 2 TB HDD https://a.co/d/go3ACno - 512gb SSD https://a.co/d/gUsUKmZ
Case: GAMDIAS ATX https://a.co/d/7Q0Kht6
PSU: Rosewill 450w 80+ gold
OS: Windows 7 & 10 (dual boot option)

Should I have any concerns about this PC build?

[goofy11]

I had a new PC built with the specs noted above. Finally got to test it out tonight, but still facing the same problem. Running Windows 7 64bit. So frustrating.... Really just want to start digitizing tapes, but can't even get to the starting line.

[lordsmurf]

There is a solution to this. Email me.

[Eric-Jan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

There is a solution to this. Email me.

yeah….. we know LS…. JVC AIW TBC

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric-Jan

yeah….. we know LS…. JVC AIW TBC

Not here. Different workflow.

Also, this is somebody that has my contact info, prior dealings, and this will be easy to sort with a hardware swap.

[Eric-Jan]

Using a computer to capture, has many things that can go wrong, my only good experiences were with Firewire and Thunderbold2, but choices are very limited, on both MAC and PC, you need to make an combination that has to be very exact, because of hardware compatability: computer & capture device, Operating system and drivers, when you downgrade those, you also limit the data throughput on such a system.
On a new system it's just great to have fast SSD's USB-C or latest Thunderbold interface.
but analog video capturing stays a niche in it's own, with almost no devices available for that, the consumer devices available lack correct video standard settings, VCR's can give to high video levels, that are not corrected, like they will in prosumer products.
btw an other trapdoor is also perfection, the analog recording is all you've got with it's imperfections you did not see on a CRT tv. a 32inch lcd/oled screen is a good size to watch your captures.

[goofy11]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

There is a solution to this. Email me.

Email sent. Thanks.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric-Jan

Using a computer to capture, has many things that can go wrong, my only good experiences were with Firewire and Thunderbold2, but choices are very limited, on both MAC and PC, you need to make an combination that has to be very exact, because of hardware compatability: computer & capture device, Operating system and drivers, when you downgrade those, you also limit the data throughput on such a system.

Most people don't seem to realize how important the OS is. Newer is not better, just more recent. It determines how drivers work, what hardware is allowed, and (for internal cards) what motherboards are allowed. It often takes workarounds and hacks/mods to get what is needed, for the legacy task of capturing SD consumer analog video. Even the Chinese items give problems now, as those were also designed for Win7, not 10/11.

Quote:

On a new system it's just great to have fast SSD's USB-C or latest Thunderbold interface.

I'm in process of dumping all hard drives now. For me, it's about heat and noise (and vibration, aka more noise), not just speed. It gets sketchy with WinXP, but it can work if planned properly. There are lots of system settings to mod from default, limitations and care needed. But doable!

Quote:

btw an other trapdoor is also perfection, the analog recording is all you've got with it's imperfections you did not see on a CRT tv. a 32inch lcd/oled screen is a good size to watch your captures.

VHS can look good with a wall-sized screen. The limiter is always playback hardware at the time of capturing.
- Cheap/wrong gear, bad results, tiny viewing only.
- Good hardware, not really an issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goofy11

Email sent. Thanks.

And when the bad weekend weather passes, I shall reply.

[Hushpower]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricJan

Using a computer to capture, has many things that can go wrong, my only good experiences were with Firewire and Thunderbold2, but choices are very limited, on both MAC and PC, you need to make an combination that has to be very exact, because of hardware compatability: computer & capture device, Operating system and drivers, when you downgrade those, you also limit the data throughput on such a system.
On a new system it's just great to have fast SSD's USB-C or latest Thunderbold interface.
but analog video capturing stays a niche in it's own, with almost no devices available for that, the consumer devices available lack correct video standard settings, VCR's can give to high video levels, that are not corrected, like they will in prosumer products.

I've sat on the sidelines of these debates up until now. Here's my two bob's worth: a lot of the above is misleading. I have a Win 11 system (i13700K, RTX-3060ti), coupled with a JVS SVHS VCR, an ES-15 (or EH-57) (and a DVK-200 if I can be bothered to pull it out) and an IOData GV-USB2 or Startech USB3HDCAP. It works great. You could add a Hauppauge USBLive2 as long as you have stabilisation. The purists will probably pick it apart but it is more than enough quality for my "reasonably" high standards.

This catastrophist doom and gloom about how hard this is is simply misleading.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricJan

VCR's can give to high video levels, that are not corrected

That has nothing to do with the topic. It doesn't matter what the computer system is if the VCR output is poor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricJan

btw an other trapdoor is also perfection, the analog recording is all you've got with it's imperfections you did not see on a CRT tv. a 32inch lcd/oled screen is a good size to watch your captures.

My experience is exactly the opposite. My VHS recordings look better on my 55" TV than on my computer monitor (probably because my monitor is closer to my eyes). I am continually impressed with the quality of restored VHS on the big screen. Unless your original video is BAD or you don't apply a bit of restoration to it, it will come out OK on a big TV, normally great.

[Eric-Jan]

Just reading this….(and Goolged some of the items mentioned) you can even spend less money to achive good quality.

-- merged --

A computer with consumer grade capture or converter devices will only bring up problems,
"just" get the video signal stable then use a prosumer analog to digital converter, that converts to SDI and use a prosumer PCIe SDI input card to record, you have a better choice of brands that way, with consumer devices you keep tinkering and adjusting, using tools that have a steep learning curve, that are only available on windows, that's not ideal, once you have captured your source the wrong way, you can hardly correct that in post.
Consumer USB dongles or PCI tv-cards give you no control over quality, or correct capturing your analog source.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric-Jan

A computer with consumer grade capture or converter devices will only bring up problems,

That's not accurate as written.
A - it's not the job of a capture card to stabilize the signal
B - SDI is just a comms channels
C - certain SDI devices are closed-loop ecosystems, and simply trade problems

Note that you replied to spammer, and that post was deleted.

[Eric-Jan]

I'm sorry, that you're getting me wrong… what i mean is, one should try to get the analog video signal stable,
that can't be done by the capture or converter, that's correct, but once the video signal is stable, more than half of the work is done, it only depends what you can get hold of, most people can't get a real good TBC, only very few JVC VCR's have a good TBC so that's also not an option, most VCR's don't have a s-video output connection
more VCR's do have a s-video input to transfer footage from camcorders, so most camcorder footage is already a second generation copy, that has been stored.
your point B > SDI is just a comms channel is even more valid for USB, where SDI was made for video,and holds up a standard for video, USB wasn't made for video at all, and may be the cause for all kind of problems, with legacy hardware and OS..
A lot of reasons to not use a computer for capturing video, only post production should be done with a computer, for the post production no downgrade is needed.

btw the post you deleted was just a link for advise on computer hardware…..

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric-Jan

I'm sorry, that you're getting me wrong… what i mean is, one should try to get the analog video signal stable,

Ah, okay then.

Yes, stabilize signal in VCR/TBCs.

Quote:

your point B > SDI is just a comms channel is even more valid for USB, where SDI was made for video

external USB/Firewire/Thunderbolt/SDI/etc and internal AGP/PCI/PCIe/etc ... all just communications/comms methods. Devices matter, not the comms (with analog SD video; other uses obviously differ due to speed/compat needs).

Being "made for video" is misleading, as 1980s broadcaster settings are not at all the same as 2000s-2020s consumer format analog capture settings.

Quote:

USB wasn't made for video at all, and may be the cause for all kind of problems,

Again, just comms. Devices and data being trasmitted is what matters. Video can be relayed over a coat hanger, though clearly not to any degree of quality.

Quote:

btw the post you deleted was just a link for advise on computer hardware…..

But also spam that had nothing to do with this conversation.

[Eric-Jan]

"just comms" is what you get when you're trying to get an analog signal into a computer, a computer is digital yes, and that's about different parts communicating, and has to do with the basic things of a computer, that's also my point in this case, and your side track to D-rail what video is about, video is about the processing of the signals, which is the part where it goes wrong with consumer electronics, mostly out of a commercially point of view, to make things as cheap as they think is possible, but electronics and computers getting better over time,
but has it's price, an analog recording is what it is, maybe AI can slightly make it look better to the eye, otherwise one should just watch analog video like it was made for …. on a CRT tv.
Problem with bringing VHS analog video into the digital domain, is, that nobody has the same equipment to do this, most good solutions are in the pro domain but not "calculated" for something like VHS, i still think a lot of the Panasonic devices made over those years with the DIGA/VHS refresh feature are an easy way to (passthrough) transfer video, maybe not the best, but any analog vcr source will spit out different signal levels, it's something you have to live with, any adjustment to that, means somewhere else quality is taken away.
I do agree with you, that there is no cheap way to digtize analog video, but really expensive it doesn't have to be, PCIe SDI/HDMI input cards are affordable these days, any recent or better computer will do, when more money is available, an Atomos Ninja V or Video Assist recorder will do nicely, these are even cheaper then computers..