JVC vs. LG capture noise?

[johnEtna]

Hi!

I'm capturing my old memories in VHS, using a JVC S771 (TBC on) -> Blackmagic Intensity Pro (not 4k) -> Virtualdub.

It seems to reproduce everything right, but I've noticed the recorded quality is not so good as I would expect, because if I compare the same VHS digitised with a LG w904 (no TBC, same capture card), it seems to retain more details and colors look better sometimes.

I share some samples, all deinterlaced using QTGMC fast.
In "artifact.mkv" you can observe a strange moving effect obtained with JVC VCR, that is not present in the LG version. I can really see something, but it is not so evident.

In "more details.mkv" you can see the left video, acquired with LG, that has better color (maybe they are just more saturated), but the details in the inscription "Bank of England" are way better than the JVC version (on the right), and also the border lines of the characters are heavier and more defined.

I know my setup could be better, but I'm using the same capture card. What am I doing wrong? Is there any setting that could help me to obtain the more possible from this setup?

Thank you so much!

[aramkolt]

These are some interesting results.

The LG looks like it is outputting an incorrect aspect ratio for one, I believe the JVC (on the right) is scaled to the appropriate 4:3. I could see it partially being possible that the compressed horizontal resolution makes the LG look a bit better detail wise, but visually, the LG looks much sharper without noticeable negatives that are typically associated with oversharpening such as repeating patterns, halos, or ringing. Or it could be I am just not identifying issues that may stand out to others.

I couldn't find info on either of the VCR models you listed, so perhaps they were mistranscribed? The aspect ratio think might be different if this is PAL content maybe?

The JVC is certainly softer, but seems to have better dropout compensation (DOC) as there's far fewer noticeable horizontal line static moments. Actual software that addresses dropouts might more easily identify them if they remain as the static though, so I can't say for sure that the JVC is preferred there either.

Seems a bit odd to me that the same capture card would give different aspect ratios if everything else is left the same?

I can't exactly see the artifact you mention other than chroma noise, so can't comment on that.

Where these captures made over S-Video or composite?

[johnEtna]

Hi, thank you for your answer.

The PAL VCRs I used are:

1. LG w904p (VHS), this is the only trace on the Internet I found of it (https://www.manualeduso.it/lg/w904p/manuale)
2. JVC HR-S7711 (S-VHS)

I had to give some more details, I do it now.
I digitise using the LG VCR some months ago, the only setting I used was saturation medium, in a scale from 1 to 6 if I remember well. The wrong aspect ratio was depending by my ignorance about the Pixel Aspect Ratio.
The JVC results were obtained in the last week, using B.E.S.T. mode, picture auto and Digital R3 on (it's wrong, butI was sure it was off). Anyway today I tried turning it off, trying BEST on and off, and all types of different image settings, but there was no big difference.

I captured these VHS with a Scart to S-Video adapter.

The artifact I see is like a moving watery surface, I googled it and yes, it is the chroma noise you are saying.
Anyway I was able to remove it almost entirely using VLC luma spatial intensity filter, that also lose a little bit of detail, smoothing everything.

This was my setup. I'm still confused by I thought the JVC to be perfect in every aspect, but maybe if I add an ES10 and a frame TBC to the LG the results could be amazing. Anyway I tried an ES10 some months ago and it adds its own noise.

I hope this informations are useful, I'm now very curious about this weird behaviour.

[aramkolt]

Ah yes, PAL does have more vertical resolution in exchange for a lower frame rate, so kind of explains why the captures are sharper than what I am used to. Part of me kind of wonders if the capture settings were different enough to cause this.

Maybe redo the capture with the same settings for both and see if you still have that difference?

[themaster1]

White horizontal lines are dropouts (worn out tape and/or bad tracking), can be fixed with avisynth. I'm not sure a TBC would cure this (partially at best)

some lecture for you: https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...ntal-line.html

[johnEtna]

Yes aramkolt, I could try to repeat the experiment, but it would take some time. I need to have the LG VCR back.

Thank you themaster1 for the definition. I didn't know it, anyway it doesn't bother me because the TBC solves it almost entirely.

I'm still confused by the LG superior ability in capturing details.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

Ah yes, PAL does have more vertical resolution in exchange for a lower frame rate, so kind of explains why the captures are sharper

PAL isn't sharper. The few extra pixels once digitized make no difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnEtna

it seems to retain more details and colors look better sometimes.
but the details in the inscription "Bank of England" are way better than the JVC version (on the right), and also the border lines of the characters are heavier and more defined.

No, this is wrong. The LG is fake boosting sharpness, the main sign is it adds halo/ringing. It's harder to see on animation, but as a toon collector I can see it immediately.

If you want to boost sharpness, do it in Avisynth, with vastly better methods available.

The DOC is also terrible, no DOC on the LG.

Quote:

In "artifact.mkv" you can observe a strange moving effect obtained with JVC VCR, that is not present in the LG version. I can really see something, but it is not so evident.

I see nothing.

Quote:

with LG, that has better color (maybe they are just more saturated),

No. "more saturated" is not better. You can boost or butcher post-capture much better than a cheap VCR that just "turns to knobs to 11".

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

the LG looks much sharper without noticeable negatives that are typically associated with oversharpening such as repeating patterns, halos, or ringing. Or it could be I am just not identifying issues that may stand out to others.

No, I see halos for sure.

Quote:

The JVC is certainly softer,

No, not softer. The JVC is not fake boosting sharpness.
- The JVC is a natural beauty.
- The LG has makeup caked on like a clown.

Quote:

Seems a bit odd to me that the same capture card would give different aspect ratios if everything else is left the same?

VCRs interpret AR like anything else. AR of analog data is not precise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnEtna

I'm still confused by I thought the JVC to be perfect in every aspect,

Faithful, true -- not fake, boosted, butchered.
Decent in, excellent out. Garbage in, less garbage out.

Quote:

but maybe if I add an ES10 and a frame TBC to the LG the results could be amazing.

No, DOC will not be resolved.
ES10/15 adds artifacts, far more than what you think the JVC does here.

Quote:

Anyway I tried an ES10 some months ago and it adds its own noise.

Correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by themaster1

White horizontal lines are dropouts (worn out tape and/or bad tracking), can be fixed with avisynth. I'm not sure a TBC would cure this (partially at best)

No, better VCR required here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnEtna

I'm still confused by the LG superior ability in capturing details.

It's not superior in the least. It just has boosted values + very obviously inferior issues.

Animation also hides flaws, so the tests here have limited use.

[hodgey]

The B.E.S.T setting on the jvcs will adjust deemphasis/sharpness depending on tape signal (and possibly also adjust noise reduction settings) so it can result in tapes being overly soft/look overprocessed in some cases. Turning it off and using the edit picture setting may or may not help if the JVC overprocesses the image too much.

The 3D DNR in the JVCs with 3D DNR/TBC is also not a transparent process, and it is active to some degree even with the TBC function turned off. I found that at least on my HR-S8600 it causes some luma ghosting/afterimage on scene changes as well (whether or not the TBC feature is on) so there is some tradeoff with it.

Some of the early 2000s JVCs (seems to be mainly the HR-Sx8xx and HR-Sx9xx models) also have some flaw (not sure if it's a design issue or something that happens over time) with the dropout compensation that causes the masked dropouts to not be output correctly which causes them not to line up with the rest of the video and throws off the tbc making which kinda ruins them. Can't quite tell from the sample whether that's the case here though or it's just the very long dropout that's throwing off the TBC. I think the LG may also have had dirty heads or something as it seems to not masking dropouts quite as expected either.

As for sharpness, there isn't really a strictly anything like a vcr that outputs a "correct"/"what is on tape" image. The image is massively sharpened (emphasis) during recording, and then "un-sharpened" (deemphasis) when playing back to reduce noise during playback. VHS HQ added further optional sharpening stuff during playback and recording and manufacturers did various tweaks to this so during playback the vcrs just have to approximate something and JVCs engineers decided to set the output a bit more on the soft side by default.

[johnEtna]

Thank you all.
I'm now convinced that LG colors are only oversharpended, and that I could achieve that result with Avisynth. Anyway, the JVC looks very natural, and I don't need to use Avisynth for this, maybe for some cartoon.
Unforunately I used Digital 3R in almost half of my VHSs. I was convinced it was off but no, because the JVC reset the setting at every reboot.
I hope it doesn't have a big impact. I tried to do some comparisons and it looks the same keeping it on/off, even if I know it's not the case.

I'll be more careful in the future. Do you know ho to let the JVC keep the settings even after I turn it off?