Analog VHS signal to SDI?

[ahmed12h]

Hey guys ,
Hope u all doing great .
I am one who looking for best quality all the time . Recently when I
Saw many videos I just figure out that best quality
From vhs player need to be “ component “
After that need to A/D ( analog to SDI ) then sdi
Capture device
My question
If my system is mesecam/secam and signal convert
From analog to digital ( sdi ) then this signal goes to PC
What would the signal be ! Does is still secam .. or how would be converted into
Another signal like NTSC ? Does that effect in quality ?
Plz plz if any one have answer tell . This method I did not tried it yet
But I am wondering about it theoretically. What would signal is in last stage

[lordsmurf]

No, not component. That requires processing Y/C to YUV/RGB, and can be just as bad as down processing to composite.

SDI is not best, just different. Closed loop system, though can be viable under some conditions.

SECAM differs from MESECAM.

Going back, I'm not aware of SDI device that accepts SECAM. I know some do not.

[latreche34]

If I understand your question correctly, you want to know what the video signal will be after being converted to digital, the answer in general is an AVI digital video file in the same format in terms of resolution and frame rate, but chroma will be processed into YUV 4:2:2 if lossless route is used for all analog video formats, This has nothing to do with SDI, Firewire, USB, Thunderbolt or PCIe, The conversion and processing to digital happens before hitting that digital port.

PAL, MESECAM and SECAM become the same after capturing into digital (YUV 4:2:2, 720x576, 50 fields/sec), NTSC and its variants are different in resolution and frame rate (YUV 4:2:2, 720x480, 60 fields/sec).

Some home theater upscalers, HDMI output devices and analog to HDMI converters use YCbCr digital component, These are not recommended for analog capturing.

[ahmed12h]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

No, not component. That requires processing Y/C to YUV/RGB, and can be just as bad as down processing to composite.

SDI is not best, just different. Closed loop system, though can be viable under some conditions.

SECAM differs from MESECAM.

Going back, I'm not aware of SDI device that accepts SECAM. I know some do not.

Hey friend,
thank you for your reply and clarification. as I understood , the way of capturing would like :
VCR ( component signal ) ------- blackmagic converter A\D ( sdi ) ------ sdi capture pcie
So, the signal goes through this stages , A\D would convert signal into digitial signal
as I see , composite is the worst signal can be captured so we stay a way from it . some proffisional
VCR are having sdi out put built in , so we need to use it as first choice but if we do not have we will go for the next choice which is componenet last thing is composite.
Any way , let us back again , if we have a sdi output from the VCR we will use same method ,
VCR ---- sdi capture Pcie .
am I right ?

in my way I focus just to have the clearest signal ever. ofcourse what I am saying is just theory and did not try any thing yet.

[latreche34]

If you are talking about consumer formats judging by MESECAM then there is no VCR with SDI out or component, Just to clarify SDI is a BNC digital port not analog, S-Video (a.k.a Y-C) is the best output to capture analog tape formats from whenever possible. Now rephrase your question to see if we can help you.

[ahmed12h]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

If I understand your question correctly, you want to know what the video signal will be after being converted to digital, the answer in general is an AVI digital video file in the same format in terms of resolution and frame rate, but chroma will be processed into YUV 4:2:2 if lossless route is used for all analog video formats, This has nothing to do with SDI, Firewire, USB, Thunderbolt or PCIe, The conversion and processing to digital happens before hitting that digital port.

PAL, MESECAM and SECAM become the same after capturing into digital (YUV 4:2:2, 720x576, 50 fields/sec), NTSC and its variants are different in resolution and frame rate (YUV 4:2:2, 720x480, 60 fields/sec).

Some home theater upscalers, HDMI output devices and analog to HDMI converters use YCbCr digital component, These are not recommended for analog capturing.

Thank u for ur reply, yes it was my question and I understood from you that when ever we capture the tape ( pal ) into digital , so it will be like Mp4 . there is no more color system in digital.
this is cool . I have question why in some devices addressed issue specially in Mesecam and Secam when capture and most of picture become with no color or it will be vibrating all the time if the output video after digitization will be same ( ex Mp4 )
why the out put of VCR could be effected by the color system while digitizing and how to avoid these issue

I saw in some A\D to select the input signal ( analog NTSC or SECAM or etc ) even if I select the same color system still there is an issue of signal captured

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

If you are talking about consumer formats judging by MESECAM then there is no VCR with SDI out or component, Just to clarify SDI is a BNC digital port not analog, S-Video (a.k.a Y-C) is the best output to capture analog tape formats from whenever possible. Now rephrase your question to see if we can help you.

ah, yes I know the sdi is BNC and some Betamax player has player with BNC.
so let us make example of this one .
I have betamax player with BNC output and composite audio output .

I will take the out put signal from sdi from player into A\D
cuz even player has sdi ( BNC ) it means signal is analog and need to be converted into digital
analog sdi into digital sdi
I hope my idea clear

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

If you are talking about consumer formats judging by MESECAM then there is no VCR with SDI out or component, Just to clarify SDI is a BNC digital port not analog, S-Video (a.k.a Y-C) is the best output to capture analog tape formats from whenever possible. Now rephrase your question to see if we can help you.

how many format consider as a consumer formats ? any one formats used for normal people or what

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahmed12h

why in some devices addressed issue specially in Mesecam and Secam when capture and most of picture become with no color or it will be vibrating all the time if the output video after digitization will be same ( ex Mp4 )
why the out put of VCR could be effected by the color system while digitizing and how to avoid these issue

I saw in some A\D to select the input signal ( analog NTSC or SECAM or etc ) even if I select the same color system still there is an issue of signal captured

You are confusing input with output, To get to digital the capture device has to process chroma, If the capture device does not have the capability to process MESECAM or PAL60 or whatever, that is a design limitation it has nothing to do with the digital output.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahmed12h

ah, yes I know the sdi is BNC and some Betamax player has player with BNC.
so let us make example of this one .
I have betamax player with BNC output and composite audio output .

I have never seen a Betamax with BNC, It's either composite or coaxial RF, There is no such analog SDI, SDI is digital only, If not sure post a picture of the back of you VCR and I will name the ports correctly for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahmed12h

how many format consider as a consumer formats ? any one formats used for normal people or what

All the formats sold for consumers from analog reel to reel all the way to D-VHS/HDV.

[ahmed12h]

last question and I really needd answer theoretically.
how would PAL ( 25 fps ) or NTSC ( 29.29 ) or secam ... with diefferent resulution can be converted to digitial and captured
the signal goes through by composite ,, how would A\D knows and re adjust all signal to be in one form ( digital ) and captured . So why in some hardware supposed to be update the inpust signal with fps also .. and how PC captured the signal .
i read many times about chroma and luma in composite and componenet and computer captured signals in this situation
if any one help me or send me a link

[latreche34]

Your question is a career in itself a video engineer designer would go through, When capturing you don't need a degree in the field to get the analog converted to digital, All you need to know is find the right capture device and software for you tape format and press the capture button. Some capture devices can detect the format and frame rate automatically, some you have to specify the video standard and frame rate manually, usually in consumer capture devices.

If you want to dive into how a VCR works, how a capture card works, there are plenty of materials online, some are free, some are not, but they are not too expensive if you are willing to learn, You may not understand everything as a lot of that stuff designed for engineers not the average person.

[ahmed12h]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

You are confusing input with output, To get to digital the capture device has to process chroma, If the capture device does not have the capability to process MESECAM or PAL60 or whatever, that is a design limitation it has nothing to do with the digital output.

I have never seen a Betamax with BNC, It's either composite or coaxial RF, There is no such analog SDI, SDI is digital only, If not sure post a picture of the back of you VCR and I will name the ports correctly for you.

All the formats sold for consumers from analog reel to reel all the way to D-VHS/HDV.

I am very impressed by tour knowledge, ur answer like u r a master in this field . thank u again
So, the A\D device which resposnsible for processing chroma, and when this device has a limitation for only PAL it means it could not process the other color system.

this point my discussion to another point, as I discussed previously that digitize signal by composite is bad
due to this wire single and it has to deliver chroma and luma in a single cable , while if I have component cable or S-Video cable will chroma and luma deliever in more space and give me more colorful picture.
more cable capacity = more data

I am realy wondering about this issue

Two are VHS player with componenet + S video
The second one proffisional deck vhs with Sdi , but I use bnc adapter to use as composite
Third one is betamax

last question , to have better chroma and luma data transfer from device to A\D I need to use good cable , So if I have
digital 8 camera and I have to use either AV cable or Fire wire ? should I fo with firewire because it will give true color
and much data that AV

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahmed12h

I am very impressed by tour knowledge, ur answer like u r a master in this field . thank u again
So, the A\D device which resposnsible for processing chroma, and when this device has a limitation for only PAL it means it could not process the other color system.

this point my discussion to another point, as I discussed previously that digitize signal by composite is bad
due to this wire single and it has to deliver chroma and luma in a single cable , while if I have component cable or S-Video cable will chroma and luma deliever in more space and give me more colorful picture.
more cable capacity = more data

Yes to both of your questions.
It is rare to see component (RGB or YPbPr) in consumer tape formats, Mostly composite (CVBS) or S-Video (Y-C).

I'm a master in a complete different field, This is just a hobby for me, I grow up with VCRs, audio cassette recorders and tinkering with them at a young age, I was also a video tech, HiFi and electronics magazines reader, My favorite magazine was Science & Vie in french language, I was always up to date when it comes to technology.

I don't understand your pictures, I need exact model numbers for each machine, Again SDI is digital only, it cannot output composite, The name of the connector is BNC not SDI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahmed12h

So if I have
digital 8 camera and I have to use either AV cable or Fire wire ? should I fo with firewire because it will give true color
and much data that AV

Depends on what the D8 is playing back, if D8 tape then firewire will be a one to one transfer, If a V8 or Hi8 tape is being played, S-Video is better.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

I don't understand your pictures, I need exact model numbers for each machine,

I see a DVD-VHS combo player/recorder. Internally, all VHS is composited. Output is not true component or Y/C on 99%+ of those.

[latreche34]

I spot the combo, but his description seems out of order, That combo I believe S-Video is for DVD only.

[ahmed12h]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

Yes to both of your questions.
It is rare to see component (RGB or YPbPr) in consumer tape formats, Mostly composite (CVBS) or S-Video (Y-C).

I'm a master in a complete different field, This is just a hobby for me, I grow up with VCRs, audio cassette recorders and tinkering with them at a young age, I was also a video tech, HiFi and electronics magazines reader, My favorite magazine was Science & Vie in french language, I was always up to date when it comes to technology.

I don't understand your pictures, I need exact model numbers for each machine, Again SDI is digital only, it cannot output composite, The name of the connector is BNC not SDI.

Depends on what the D8 is playing back, if D8 tape then firewire will be a one to one transfer, If a V8 or Hi8 tape is being played, S-Video is better.

Wow , respect

Thats what is going with me , it is a hobby and I digged more about VCR and signals transfer and all about old tech.

you r right it is BNC connector. maybe I was confused about it . but this mean BNC connector give analog signal still . should I capture this analog signal with RCA or BNC cable to have better video

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I see a DVD-VHS combo player/recorder. Internally, all VHS is composited. Output is not true component or Y/C on 99%+ of those.

yes u r right it is VHS + DVD recorder .
I did not tried componenet cable in this device cuz I did not have those cable. But it is on the way to recieve
it next moth I will try it

So, all VHS , betamax tapes has only composite signal ,,, these signal need to be captured by A\D
is the same idea with betacam and umatic since it is a proffisional tape and need to be playedback with
pro deck ...
I have one betacam player with no composite out ,,,,, it is only XLR for sound and BNC for video
now it means the video canbe delivered with BNC
am I right

last wondering about digitize , as I red in many Docs , it required some wiered setup like to capture VHS with
Loessless and sampling 4:2:2 ...etc
those setup never can be done with bad A\D ..
so what is the purpose of this hard setup if the output will be the same

last point .. what I understood that all analog tapes include vhs betamax D8 Hi8 vhsc umatic betacam
having composite output and must be captured as is ... which would be the main roll for good quality in the setup then ? A\D or vcr if we have same signal

[latreche34]

Composite can be output over RCA or BNC, there is absolutely no difference, Both low quality composite, If you want high quality capture get a S-VHS deck built in line TBC for VHS tapes, Betamax via a ED beta machine that has S-Video out for Betamax tapes, V8/Hi8 using a Hi8 camcorder built in line TBC for 8mm tapes, Those machines are not cheap, expect over $1000. For Betacam there are machines that have digital SDI output.

I'm not going into the nuts and bolts of the entire thing, start reading the forum and learn as much as you can, if you have questions about a particular issue you can open a new thread for that exact subject.

[lordsmurf]

It need also be mentioned that heads and transports on higher-end gear is also much better, allowing for more stable playback and transfer. The difference in gear is not solely line TBCs, but everything about the units. Cheap gear is cheap from top to bottom, everything is minimal quality.