Hi8 CCD no playback image, sound?

[Kenator18]

Hi folks,

I've acquired a PAL Sony CCD-TR780E recently and I have been facing some difficulties. I've tried to playback some Video8 tapes that play fine in another unit (CCD-TR350E) and noticed some distortion and no sound as if the tape was not landing properly on the heads (?).

I tried other tapes, cleaning the video heads properly with 99% IPA, checked if the guides were loose, reseated all of the connectors on the unit but it didn't do the trick... The Viewfinder works, the microphone works but it doesn't actually record on tape.

Does anyone have a clue of what's wrong? I've enclosed pictures of the video head and two captures of the issue (one of the tape playing and another one of me going frame per frame on the camcorder). I can provide more if needed.

Much appreciated!!

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[aramkolt]

In that second video, eems like every other field is kind of clear which suggests that one of the heads is either worn or is clogged. The bending at the top of the frame could be due to the lack of a line TBC as I don't think that model has a built-in TBC.

I haven't seen much in the way of head wear on VHS machines, but with Hi8 and Digital8, head wear or damage seems to be much more of a common problem.

12voltvids would recommend doing the "fingernail trick" while the head is spinning (to use the back of your fingernail lightly pressed up against where the heads rotate past while the tape is playing to clear off the heads. This gives you realtime feedback to know if the picture improves as you clean it and the idea is that fingernail has a much lower hardness than the ferrite in the heads, so it technically shouldn't wear down the heads while doing it. Cleaning tapes on the other hand are slightly abrasive, so they do wear down the heads some when used. If a lot of cleaning tapes have been through that machine before it made it to you, that would be the most likely reason for the heads to be worn down now.

Pinch rollers can also cause a lot of issues, mainly with tape path, but sourcing them is problematic.

Usually they say the telltale sign of dirty heads is significant picture improvement during regular fast forward that goes back to being bad once pressing play again.

[Kenator18]

Thank for your expertise, I'm going to try the fingernail trick! I've tried to clean the black pinch roller with IPA and there was either a lot of dirt on it or it is just the alcohol making it lose its color as it was very black.

Is there anyone that can tell if the heads looks damaged from the picture I sent? I can provide more if it is needed.

[timtape]

I wouldn't do "the fingernail trick". It risks destroying the fragile heads in an instant. There's a good reason manufacturers only spoke of using cleaning tapes. Proper manual cleaning is difficult. Access is difficult. The heads are fragile. Its easy to do more harm than good. Even taking useable photos of the tiny heads is difficult.

[aramkolt]

I agree with Timtape that there is the potential for the heads to break while using the fingernail trick. 12voltvids implies that he's never broken a head this way and he has probably done it to thousands of machines over the years. I don't think he'd risk damaging equipment that people pay him to repair if he wasn't confident in his own implementation of the technique and that the risk is very low.

I don't think I've ever seen a comment on one of his videos where someone said they broke their machine doing the "fingernail trick", but I have countless comments that the fingernail trick DID fix their own machines.

Because there is still a potential risk, I'd say only do the fingernail trick as a last resort.

I myself have done the fingernail trick exactly once on a Hi8 camcorder and it worked immediately. I only tried it after trying very expensive chamois swabs from MG Chemicals and 99% isopropyl alcohol as well as the paper method plus isopropyl alcohol. While there is potential risk involved, assuming the heads don't break, there should be less wear to the heads each time that is done compared to using a cleaning tape which is mildly abrasive because it is meant to be used dry.

For what it's worth, I've never had the "paper method with IPA" fail on any VHS VCR. Seems like whatever metal particle coatings or binders used in 8mm tapes are much more difficult to clear which is why I think the usual methods often don't work.

[NJRoadfan]

The fingernail trick is really for "captures of last resort". Those early 90s Sony 8mm tapes love to clog heads and using the fingernail is pretty much the only way to capture those tapes without going insane. At a minimum the cover modification makes it WAY easier to clean the heads manually.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

12voltvids .., and he has probably done it to thousands of machines over the years.

I highly doubt it was even hundreds of units, much less thousands. It's not like this sort of "redneck repair" is often needed. Try not to exaggerate or overestimate, for the good of other newbies. That's how myths start, that's how bad Youtube advice starts.

Quote:

I don't think he'd risk damaging equipment that people pay him to repair if he wasn't confident in his own implementation of the technique and that the risk is very low.

I don't necessarily think I can agree to that either. He's been pretty rough on gear and tapes in some of his videos. Things I'd never do, things I'd consider somewhat risky. He often bashes buttons, drops things, sometimes even throws things when frustrated. Just in general, he "man handles" things, no finesse. We've had comments in the forum, from other members, in the past.

That's the one issue I've always had with his channel. I was taught to be gentle with AV/photo gear.

Quote:

Because there is still a potential risk, I'd say only do the fingernail trick as a last resort.

I'd only do it if the next step was buying a new Hi8 camera.

Quote:

For what it's worth, I've never had the "paper method with IPA" fail on any VHS VCR. Seems like whatever metal particle coatings or binders used in 8mm tapes are much more difficult to clear which is why I think the usual methods often don't work.

While the "copy paper method" (CPM) is also somewhat "redneck maintenance", I've only had it fail a few times. And by "fail", I mean head damage, sometimes irreparable damage. The problem is that the IPA dries so quickly that you can end up rubbing cheap 20lb paper on the heads, which isn't good whatsoever. You have to be really careful.

Proper swabs are much better to use, safer, but those have become hard to acquire And no, before somebody randomly links an Amazon/etc link, understand the quality of what is now sold isn't at all like the quality of what existed in the 00s and 10s. It's all Chinese crap now.

DSLR sensor swabs were great, more trustworthy than chamois/foam swabs in the late 2010s. But both DSLRs and the need to clean sensors is vastly reduced from the 90s/00s.

CPM is definitely cheaper, quicker, easier. Walmart or Dollar General for 90%+ IPA, paper from printer, and go.

Anything is better than Q-tips. You'd ne better off having your cat/dog lick the head clean.

[timtape]

These little video format heads werent designed to handle a tape splice at high speed - which of course will always be at high speed as the video drum rotates at high speed. If for example a tape breaks in the middle into two sections, the correct salvage method is to put each of the two separate tapes into different cassette shells and splice in the extra leader needed so the deck never encounters a splice, just as with standard undamaged tapes. And remember the splice tape is on the opposite side to the video drum so the heads dont encounter it, but they will encounter the joint in the tape. Even that join, that small gap between the tape ends is a risk to the fast moving video heads.

This is about inertia. With speed comes inertia. That's why a small bullet at high speed can do so much damage. It's the stored energy suddenly released in the collision which does the damage.

There's a big difference in the ruggedness of the video heads compared to the A/C head. The A/C head is a solid cube with a smooth, polished face so the lamination and gap section within it is supported on all sides. There's much less chance for anything to "catch". Whereas the video heads are NOT supported in the same way by the drum in which they are mounted. They're just mounted by the wafer they are glued to and there's spaces on all sides. They're a sitting duck for high speed damage.

The reason we can safely used Q tips on A/C heads but not near video heads is that the video heads can easily "catch" on a loose strand of cotton which can be enough to rip the tiny head off its mount and destroy it.

The Ferrite video heads in VCR's and camcorders often do have much longer life than standard Permalloy or Sendust heads as in the A/C control head, but only because they are made of much harder material which doesnt wear down as quickly in normal use. But the downside of hardness here is that they are brittle and if they impact an object at high speed they can shatter or chip like glass.

Naturally when just one of the tiny heads fails, the cash value of a machine plummets. The video head drum is a precision unit made to exacting tolerances. It's really the mechanical heart of the deck or camcorder. Nobody is remanufacturing them to my knowledge.

In his video 12voltvids is talking about capturing a faulty tape which repeatedly clogs video heads.
At 10:08 he says that since the one faulty tape is clogging up the heads repeatedly "I'm gonna have to do this multiple times". It's already bad enough that even a short touch of the fingernail will mean multiple collisions with the fast spinning heads, but because this may only clean the heads for a few minutes if that, the fingernail thing will have to be repeated multiple times during capture of the one faulty tape. The risk of damage multiplies even further.

He also shows us the offending Sony MP tape but makes no mention of the possibility of cleaning or otherwise treating the tape, ie: treating the problem at its source, before playing the tape. He just plays it as is. Maybe he knows something we dont, that the tape definitely cant be treated. If so it would have been good if he'd said so, so we dont have to resort to risky methods.

Having said that I like his mod on the Digital 8 camcorder for much quicker access to cleaning the video drum and heads. It helps when using normal cleaning methods such as with copy paper and IPA.