ATI X600Pro, X800XT, X800XL silver stab connectors?

[jwillis84]

Dimensions on a diagram for male (mini DVI)
6 mm x 10 mm

Dimensions on a silverstab for male (mini DVI)
6 mm x 10 mm


The service manual for the
PowerBook G4 (12-inch 1.33 GHz)

Has a photo on comparing the USB type A port to a mini DVI port


Whatever the difference it seems to be within 1 mm difference on each side of the connector.

I do not know tooling but that might just be for fit tolerance.


Your calculation between 0.37 and 0.47 inches is 0.1 inches difference which is 2.54 mm, cut in half on either side.. that margin is a bit large from what I can see.. but not outside the realm of possibility.. especially since those pictures are at an angle.

Generally manufacturers don't size to odd dimensions, so I'm more likely to believe they landed on an even number 10 mm overall makes sense to me.

Also 0.37" and 0.47" dance right around 10 mm


But Hey.. you don't have to trust me.

The adapter cable is $13 off amazon or $3 off ebay from china.

You could also spot weld some 32 gauge wire wrap wire or use conducting glue.


I think I may have upset some reading the form.. so I'll back away from this for now.

Unless someone else wants the rest of the pinout, those were for the Purple Input connections.

The pattern of the signal connections suggests the Outputs are on the top rail, since these all fell on the bottom rail.

There were also similarities in the signal layout to the Apple mini DVI arrangement.. but I think talking about that may get me in trouble.

Goodnight.

[jwillis84]

Ok.. I've seen it all now.

Using a FFC cable back to back as a connector and breakout cable.


Homemade Macbook mini-DVI to VGA adapter

[jwillis84]

technical drawing for the mini DVI socket

[dpalomaki]

Thanks. The drawing makes things more clear.

Contact spacing on the ATI IO appears to be about 0.035" (~0.83 mm).

Contact spacing on the Mini-DVI drawing is 1.00 mm.
Contact width on the Mini0DVI is 0.40 mm leaving 0.6mm guard band.

That adapter kludge is my kind of guy

-- merged --

Have ordered a low cost Mini-DVI adapter to see if it will work/fit. Probably arrive late this week or early next week.

Thanks.

[jwillis84]

It should be a very interesting experiment.

The drawing comes from a place in China near where the original Wieson connector was made.

I could not find a drawing for the original ATI connector for the x600 pro.

I don't speak Mandarin or read Chinese.. but from what I could tell from forums in 2004, they referred to the early ATI AIW x600 pro as having MiNi DVI/LVDS connectors.

MiNi DVI is what we would later call mini DVI under Apple

LVDS is what we would later call DVI

I also couldn't find definitive (proof) this was an "early" design of what Apple used as their proprietary mini DVI, but it seems the design originated in 2002.. got adopted or modified "slightly" by Apple in 2003 and was briefly used in a few Apple laptops before Steve Jobs announced they would be unifying all desktops and laptops using mini display port.

(I am not Besmirching "Apple reputation" here.. it could be the opposite.. Apple may have designed it.. and once it got to China..Wieson may have appropriated and repurposed it.. I do not know.) the idiot proof "key" seems to be the difference. Maybe ATI stopped using because Apple didn't like the similarities.. (again I don't know).. all of that is not important to me.

Its all very (loose) research and inference on my part.. I'm not trying to write "history" here. That was a turbulent time.

I am sort of putting it out there that it does look like Wieson was commissioned by ATI to make these for the x600 and the x800 and then they stopped using them. I do not know why for sure.. but it seems (maybe) Apple using and then quickly abandoning them for display port was along the same lines. That is they wanted to adopt more conventional and accepted standards.

The tolerances will be very close.. and making sure the contacts make contact and don't short will be very important.

I am very tempted to get one of those very cheap mini DVI adapters myself.

The ones made specifically by Apple, did not bring all the pins out. The ones made by third parties and Dynex (Best Buy) apparently did. I haven't looked at the DVD-D pins that the Apple mini DVD bring out.. they may be sufficient, or they may be missing one or two.. its a matter of checking the Apple pin mapping versus DVI-D

I think it will be a major win.. simply to know the physical connector "works" or "does not" work.

If it doesn't work.. well there will always be the flexible flat cable (FFC) approach.. lol.

I noticed there are actually quite a few "boxless" X600 pros up for sale around the web without the silver stab connector.. this could prove useful information for other people.

Also the x800 xt and x800 xl people use a silver stab, with a different pin out.. so that's potentially a lot of people.

[dpalomaki]

Wieson also made the VID I/O connector used in the ATI-based display/capture board made for use with Pinnacle Liquid Edition 5.5. Files on the display driver disk date to 2003. It was based on the ATI Radeon 8500, had the ATI Rage Theater chip, an IEEE1394 port, single DVI port, but no TV tuner. The VID I/O connector was a 5x6 matrix with a corner pin missing an one blank (28 net pins). The associated BOB has a 6-pin firewire port, S-VIDEO I/O, and RCA I/O for audio and CVBS.

Wieson also made the IEEE1394 port on the Pinnacle board.

[jwillis84]

x600_IO.jpg pin numbers

(inputs)

20 - Luma
22 - Chroma
24 - CVBS
17 - Audio Left
19 - Audio Right
9 - RF (TV)
1 - RF (FM)

(outputs) - composite / s-video connector block

4 - Luma
6 - Chroma
8 - CVBS
- Audio Left (no pins, connected to Green Tip of TRS) - comes from the sound card speaker out plug
- Audio Right (no pins, connected to Green Ring of TRS) - comes from the sound card speaker out plug
13 - Line out (blue)
26 - SPDIF (orange)

A clever arrangement.

Line out (blue) must be plugged into the sound card, so the sound card can record sound after it is decoded from the RF or routed from the audio inputs back out to the sound card.

Speaker out (green) must be plugged into the sound card, so the sound card can play sound and be routed back out to the audio outputs on the output connector block.

Digital out (orange) must be plugged into an external decoder, so its not routed anywhere, but remains available if a coaxial connection is made to a stereo or av amp with a digital input.

note (1): To successfully capture, Line out should be connected to the sound card line in (blue) or "no sound" will be captured, even though the audio Left and audio Right connectors may be attached to the video source.. because.. that is simply routed back out the Line out pin to the sound card.

note (2): The x600 card has an (internal) white sound connector on the Upper Left hand edge of the card next to the silver tv tuner shield. A "sound blaster" four pin connector can be used to attach this to the AUX input of a sound card without using the external Line in (blue) connector to connect the sound source to the sound card. This (optional) cable is not provided.

(outputs) - HDTV / YPbPr connector block

"to be continued"

-- merged --

Slight curve ball.

There are two (brown) molex headers just on the card.

The shorter one has pins for (Inputs) CVBS, Luma and Chroma

The longer one has pins for (Outputs) CVBS, Luma and Chroma

So.. it turns out.. you can by-pass the mini DVI connector entirely and simply use the molex connectors on the card for video capture.

And since decoded audio comes out of the white molex connector next to the tuner shield.

You could avoid using the mini DVI connector entirely.

In theory its a solution.

But in practice its a cabling challenge.

I still think it would be better to use the mini DVI connector.

But this is a distraction from working on the HDTV / YPbPr connector block.

-- merged --

=== x600_IO.jpg pin numbers ===

(inputs)

20 - Luma
22 - Chroma
24 - CVBS
17 - Audio Left
19 - Audio Right
9 - RF (TV)
1 - RF (FM)

(outputs) - composite / s-video connector block

4 - Luma
6 - Chroma
8 - CVBS
- Audio Left (no pins, connected to Green Tip of TRS) - comes from the sound card speaker out plug
- Audio Right (no pins, connected to Green Ring of TRS) - comes from the sound card speaker out plug
13 - Line out (Left channel, connected to Blue Tip of TRS)
15 - Line out (Right channel, connected to Blue Ring of TRS)
26 - SPDIF (orange)

(outputs) - HDTV / YPrPb connector block

4 - Y (green)
6 - Pr (red)
8 - Pb (blue)
- Audio Left (no pins, connected to Green Tip of TRS) - comes from the sound card speaker out plug
- Audio Right (no pins, connected to Green Ring of TRS) - comes from the sound card speaker out plug
13 - Line out (Left channel, connected to Blue Tip of TRS)
15 - Line out (Right channel, connected to Blue Ring of TRS)
26 - SPDIF (orange)

=== Internal Headers on the Card ===

header (white)(Not certain this is a Sound Card connector)(next to tuner shield)

1 - GND
2 -
3 - GND
4 -

(inputs) header (brown short, JU3) (pin 1 starts from Left, facing the open side from inside)

1
2 - GND
3
4 - Chroma
5 - GND
6 - Luma
7 - GND
8 - CVBS

(outputs) header (brown long, J6)(pin 1 starts from Left, facing the open side from inside)

1 - GND
2 - SPDIF
3
4 - GND
5
6 - Chroma, Pr
7 - GND
8 - Luma, Y
9 - GND
10 - CVBS, Pb

[dpalomaki]

That info for the JU3 and J6 headers tends to make chasing the Silver Stab a moot issue. But when I get the Mini-DVI connector I will post results.

Thanks again.

Don

[jwillis84]

Maybe..

You could tool up your own side-by-side back plane connector which plugs into those headers for CVBS and S-Video (or YPbPr) and then use only the sound card for inputs and outputs of sound.

What I'm not sure about is with the PCIe cards they (may) have started capturing sound in the capture card or continuing to pass it to the sound card.. I (think) all of the T200 chip capture cards strictly passed audio to the sound card.. and it was only with the T550 and beyond hardware MPEG2 cards that imported the process of audio capture.

So.. all that to say.. yeah.. think so

Something like this $12 back plane bracket would make a good part to start with. Running video signals to the x600 and running separate audio cables to the sound card aux inputs.

A/V Bracket and Cable Set

Hauppauge also has a $14 back plane bracket that could be used

A/V Bracket and Cable Set with full height and half height brackets
Model number 01097

Sometimes chasing "solutions" you keep finding more "answers" than you need.. or ever expected. [The Best] solution is never obvious in the beginning.

-- merged --

Interesting "future" research news.

I checked an x800xt and x800xl I have at home and the x800xt "appears" to have two brown molex connectors and a white molex connector just as the x600pro. The x800xl only has one however.. it might be for inputs or outputs.

I checked a Euro 9600xt and it clearly has sections on the card with (no) headers but with plated through solder holes labeled in white silkscreen video in, video out, audio in, audio out.. those "may" be input and output connections.

I checked a N.A. 9600xt and it has anonymous plated through holes with (no) headers in a different location and no silk screening.

That sort of means there may be many occasions where these headers offer access to the inputs and outputs without the crazy Wieson dongle breakout cables.. if they eventually all get pinned out.

If it wasn't for looking deeply into the 'faux' mini DVI connector on the x600pro.. these may have remained overlooked and stayed in obscurity forever.

The same method of sourcing a parallel back plane with regular cvbs, s-video and audio connectors.. and running custom header connectors to the capture card, and to the aux in of the sound card may work for them as well.

At this point its mostly speculation.. but definitely appears possible with the x600 pro cards.

[dpalomaki]

That A/V bracket looks interesting. Your research is opening up a world of possibilities.

I note it is for a 10-pin header so it wound need modification or replacement for the 8-pin input header on the X600 Pro.

[jwillis84]

Some might choose to cut the "brackets" board connector off and rewire to a different female connector for the x600 board.

I'm a bit less destructive.. I'd think about getting a 10 pin male connector and daisy chain it to a new 8 pin female. That way you could rewire in transit from the original bracket connector to any position you like in the final 8 pin connector. Also some of the wires would need to connect to an internal sound card four pin position connector for the AUX input of the sound card.

A (second) bracket could be used to bring the second brown connector signals out to a Third side by side back plane connector set for Outputs. If you care about Outputs.. in this day and age.. I can't imagine why anyone would.

I tend to like the modular "snap together" leggos look.

So:

1. original card backplane, mini DVI, DVI, VGA
2. Inputs backplane
3. Outputs backplane

This by-passes the need for a Purple "Barney" connector block for Inputs, or similar Domino connector block for Outputs. Some people might actually prefer that discordant looping nest of colored wires.. but to each their own.. it doesn't exclude that possibility.

But if you want a "Purple "Barney" solution, the $12 eBay solution looks better since it has spare round (din) connector spots already in the top of that bracket that are empty and unused.. perfect for inserting female din connectors to accommodate those connection spots.. without resorting to a mini DVI. Or you could just use the holes to thread female din connectors through and wire them to the new board connector directly and not worry about trying to fit or mount them in the bracket holes. Or remove the bracket board entirely and simply use the bracket to let threaded female Din to board connector cables through the case with minimum effort.

And then none of "that" means the original mini-DVI from Apple, or a Silver stab couldn't also be used if one is ever found or salvaged from a lost or deceased board.

So many possibilities.

[dpalomaki]

Interesting that ATI used so many different A/V connectors. Even among the Mini-DINs they had several different pin counts, pin spacings, and polarizing splines. And none clearly marked as to which system once they are out of their bag and the part number is no longer visible.
.

[jwillis84]

You bring up good points.. things I've wondered about myself.

But the more WST parts numbers and ATI parts numbers I see, they sort of start to make sense.

There appears to be a builders code embedded in the string of numbers which specifies how the breakout cable or puck is built. Wieson actually has the ATI Purple "Barney" connector displayed on old copies of their website in archive.org as a demo of their OEM cable solutions. -- Its usually printed in small Grey white letters on the axial length of "one" of the black cables coming out of the proprietary connector. It can be (very) hard to see, even under a magnifying glass.. but its usually there.

I do not know the scale of ATI as a company back then, they were pretty famous and altruistic I believe.. participating in a lot of education and pure research activities in Canada. But these Theater 200 cards generally ran at the high end in price > $400 or more.. (with inflation > $557.38 today) so they weren't for the typical masses.

Their cabling strategies were innovative but they had to find someone to manufacture them and "try" different things. Wieson was a contractor that would do small batches on spec.. so it looked like a good fit for them.

All of the connections were not "standardized" in 2003 - 2004, how to connect HDTV (analog), DVI (digitial), what to do with audio? analog or digital. A lot of people including Apple seemed to think Firewire was the future. MPEG2 still cost money to license. That ATI brought some semblance of "order" to it was a miracle. I've developed a lot of respect for that scrappy little Canadian company.

Today.. the suite of cables and connectors appear confusing and mystifying.. and unnecessary.. but at the time.. they were the Best of the Best.

They were also struggling with NTSC video.. ATSC was barely on the horizon in the US and Canada delayed picking a system to see how it worked out in the US.. I think they were very smart for doing that.

They were better than Hauppauge and AverMedia at the time I think.. but now they are gone.. and Hauppauge and AverMedia are the only two with Windows 10 solutions on the market. But streaming has eclipsed that for the most part.

These ATI Theater 200 cards are still the "Best" for NTSC video capture.. but they are getting harder to find and learn to support. They're almost two decades old.. and people still use them!

I don't knock them anymore for using such a bizarre selection of custom connectors to bring out adapters to common familiar A/V ports.. but its not a pursuit for the casual user.. you have to want to understand them, and use them right.

Finding the "optional" IDC header by-pass on many of the cards.. is practically game changing.. until now, loosing those dongles or silver stabs has been a death sentence for these cards. But not any more!

[dpalomaki]

Possible connector pigtail for the 8-pin header.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/JST-PH-2-0m...gAAOSwj1haiaJ4

[jwillis84]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpalomaki

Possible connector pigtail for the 8-pin header.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/JST-PH-2-0m...gAAOSwj1haiaJ4

Very nice !

[dpalomaki]

I cut open the cable on a purple AV input puck (PN 6140004600). These appear to be readily available at moderate prices. They contain S-VIDEO, and CVBS, left, and Right audio RCA connectors at the puck and a special 8-pin mini-DIN connector at the other end.

The wires in the cable connect to the following at the puck:
Red shielded - for Right audio RCA and its shield
White shielded - for left audio RCA and its shield
Black shielded - for CVBS RCA and its shield
A foil wrapped bundle containing a drain wire and four small wires
The foil and drain are connected to the 8-pin mini-DIN's metal shell, but not not the grounds in the purple puck.
Small white - Luma
Small red - Luma ground
Small Green - Chroma
Small black - Chroma ground

The 8-pin mini-DIN connector is not a standard connector - it has 4 special splines in the metal shell that do not match with the typical 8-pin mini-DIN connectors that have 3 splines.

Have attached a pin map for the connector and a photo of the conductors in the purple puck's cable that I played with.

[jwillis84]

I put the information in the other Thread about the x800 series of connectors, they are "labeled" as AV In and AV out headers, and the white molex connector is labeled "Line out".. significant information.

I think eventually.. both these threads should be consolidated or collapsed into a simplified "How to work around not having a Silver Stab adapter" or something like that.

The famous 9600 series looks hopefully to be in a similar (if not more complex) situation.. I'll have to take a long look at those. They had a (lot) of different models that shared that crazy 26 pin "box" connector.. great cards.. but hmm.. I don't know.

[dpalomaki]

The "$12 back plane bracket" in post #29 has a 10-pin connector, but it has 0.10" (2.54 mm) pin spacing, not 2 mm, so it will not connect to the ATI header. It also has a bit of PC board that apparently contains 10 tiny(180-10459-0000-A00 printed on the board, and 800-10459-0001-000H in a paper tag).

The 10 pins on the bracket's header: 5 pins correspond to a common ground and the other 5 correspond to the left & right audio, Y, C, and CVBS signals. The bracket has two empty holes that labeled for FM and TV, and jacks labeled for SVID IN, CVID IN, LAUD IN, and RAUD IN. The leads are about 10" shielded.

The header pin mapping is attached.

[jwillis84]

This Pin out may be reversed if its (actually) the same as the European Pin out included in their User Manual for a AIT 9000 from Connect3D.

I rather like that because it would mean a confirmation of this discovery. Until now we just didn't have documented Proof of what the headers were for, it also is starting to look like this an ATI "standard".

(inputs) header (brown short, JU3) (pin 1 starts from Left, facing the open side from inside)

1
2 - GND
3
4 - Chroma
5 - GND
6 - Luma
7 - GND
8 - CVBS


From the AIW R9000PRO User Guide.pdf User manual

Pin	Signal
1	CVBS / Y in
2	Video Ground
3	Luma / Pr in
4	Video Ground
5	Chroma / Pb in
6	Audio Left in
7	Audio Ground
8	Audio Right in

[dpalomaki]

FWIW I mapped the 8- and 10-pin headers on my AIW X600 PRO 128M to the 32-pin stab connector (pin map in post #8) as follows:

The 8-PIN: (counting from the top edge of the card)
1 - ?
2 - Gnd
3 - ?
4 - 22 (C in)
5 - Gen
6 - 20 (Y in)
7 - 23 (?) - [differs from what jwilis84 found]
8 - 24 (CVBS in)

The 10-PINcounting from the top edge of the card)
1 - 8 (CVBS out)
2 - 12 (?)
3 - 4 (Y out)
4 - GND
5 - 6 (C out)
6 - ?
7 - Gnd
8 - ?
9 - 26 (SPDIF out)
10 - Gnd