Video8/Hi8/Digital8/DV/Betamax Buying Guide for quality conversion

[BW37]

A factoid more than anything...

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

As far as I know TBC was used only on certain Hi8/D8 camcorders.

I'd assumed the same until reading through the manual for a Sony CCD-TRV87 I found this:

Menu_settings_for TRV17,37,57,67&87.jpg

The manual covers models CCD-TRV: 17, 37, 57, 67 and 87. The first 3 are Video8, the last 2 Hi8. The models vary in many ways but the (confusing?) manual seemed to indicate that ALL have the TBC and DNR functions. So, ever curious, I found a "parts only" CCD-TRV57 cheap enough to buy just to satisfy my curiosity. It has major problems, but the menu system works and Low and Behold, it does have a TBC option! I'll need to do some repairs (if I can) to tame it's run-away drum motor, etc. but I hope to actually confirm it's TBC functionality in operation at some point .

Since "working" units of these (17, 37 and 57) seem to cost as much on eBay as working Hi8 models, there is no reason to look for them since they do NOT have the desired s-video out. Only the Hi8 67 and 87 have that. Note also that the 67 is mono audio out while the 87 is stereo. Only the 87 has video/audio IN (can record from another video device).

BW

[HomeVideoProject]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

Well after checking that model it turns out to be a Video8 camcorder, As far as I know TBC was used only on certain Hi8/D8 camcorders. Only Hi8 and D8 (with analog playback) camcorders that have TBC and S-Video out are recommended for analog tapes capture. It has been mentioned numerous times on this forum.

The one on my desk has "video Hi8" printed on it's side. Picture attached.

[latreche34]

Look in the menu then to see if there is a TBC option, how hard can that be?

[HomeVideoProject]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

Look in the menu then to see if there is a TBC option, how hard can that be?

Yeah, I just confirmed a few posts back that I couldn't find anything related to TBC in the menu.

[BarryTheCrab]

I think the TRV-138 is to be removed. Correct me but no S-video.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarryTheCrab

I think the TRV-138 is to be removed. Correct me but no S-video.

No, not removed.

138 is 2005 release, one of last Hi8. Tracks better than most, and composite is not really soft like 99% of other composite devices. I keep both NTSC and PAL units due to tracking quality.

[NJRoadfan]

The earlier CCD-TRV128 has the S-Video jack, but is otherwise identical to the 138. The CCD-TRV138 is indeed the last analog Hi-8 camcorder Sony sold. The S-Video port omission was a cost saving measure.

[BarryTheCrab]

While watching a 12voltvid presentation, he was working on a Hitachi Hi8 camcorder. Hitachi VM-H675LA.
For kicks I looked up the manual and was surprised to see it has TBC as well as some kind of tape analysis function probably along the lines of BEST.
Is there some reason Hitachi is less-than-desirable for playback and capture? Asking for a friend...
A friend told me to watch the entire video and read the comments. Cheap, and not a Sony, but better than others.

[vwestlife]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarryTheCrab

For kicks I looked up the manual and was surprised to see it has TBC as well as some kind of tape analysis function probably along the lines of BEST.

If that's like Sony's ORC (Optimal Recording Condition), then it only affects recording, not playback.

Thanks to 12voltvids, I also learned that playing a Hi8 tape through a composite output is no different than using a Video8 player with Quasi-Hi8 playback. So that "last gasp" Sony Hi8 model without an S-Video output (CCD-TRV138) wasn't even actually Hi8, it was just Quasi-Hi8, unless you took out the tape you recorded on it and played it on another machine which did have S-Video output.

p.s. The circuit traces for the S-Video output are actually still there on the circuit board -- they just left out the S-Video jack and covered it up with a blanking plug.

[evilnat]

Hi all,

I've just received a CCD-TRV58E and I can tell that it has TBC/DNR, S-Video output and mono audio output, just in case you want to add it to the list.

[radiokom]

Mono audio output? There are a lot of Hi8 camcorders with stereo RCA output.

[BarryTheCrab]

What’s YOUR point? The poster states the camcorder has DNR and TBC and S-video out. Mono? Ok fine, it has the features that allow for consideration as a capture device.

[radiokom]

You can use that camcorder to reproduce tapes with mono soundtrack. All those with stereo out can reproduce both. I would avoid that with mono out.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by radiokom

Mono audio output? There are a lot of Hi8 camcorders with stereo RCA output.

Stereo vs. mono is such a silly argument, when consumer camcorders are being discussed. The "stereo" is not true stereo, as the recording microphone was single-sited. Actual stereo recording involves geographically distances microphones recording in tandem, to get the true ambiance of the sound approaching the eardrums from separate locations. No such ambiance exists in a single-sited consumer microphone.

Stereo is essentially mono on these camcorders. At very most, the mic semi-shotgunned in two different directions, but it's always wonky. When viewed in a visual audio timeline, it's obviously not stereo whatsoever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by radiokom

You can use that camcorder to reproduce tapes with mono soundtrack. All those with stereo out can reproduce both. I would avoid that with mono out.

Soundtracks? It's a camcorder. We're lucky if the audio is clear, not redlined/distorted, and lacks wind noise. These are just old home movies. Maybe B-roll for old news segments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwestlife

Thanks to 12voltvids, I also learned that playing a Hi8 tape through a composite output is no different than using a Video8 player with Quasi-Hi8 playback.

No, 12voltvids is wrong.
- Video8 can only play low-resolution SD video.
- Hi8 is high-resolution SD playback quality, even if constrained by composite output.

12voltvids is fountain of knowledge for repairing low-end consumer VHS VCRs. But with many other things, especially higher-end equipment, he spouts a lot of BS. I've confronted him several times on his misinformation, as have others.

Quote:

So that "last gasp" Sony Hi8 model without an S-Video output (CCD-TRV138) wasn't even actually Hi8, it was just Quasi-Hi8

No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilnat

Hi all,
I've just received a CCD-TRV58E and I can tell that it has TBC/DNR, S-Video output and mono audio output, just in case you want to add it to the list.

Thanks, added.

[radiokom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Stereo vs. mono is such a silly argument, when consumer camcorders are being discussed. The "stereo" is not true stereo, as the recording microphone was single-sited. Actual stereo recording involves geographically distances microphones recording in tandem, to get the true ambiance of the sound approaching the eardrums from separate locations. No such ambiance exists in a single-sited consumer microphone.

Stereo is essentially mono on these camcorders. At very most, the mic semi-shotgunned in two different directions, but it's always wonky. When viewed in a visual audio timeline, it's obviously not stereo whatsoever.

Soundtracks? It's a camcorder. We're lucky if the audio is clear, not redlined/distorted, and lacks wind noise. These are just old home movies. Maybe B-roll for old news segments.

Yes it is. But anyway, in my opinion, those cassettes recorded with "stereo" microphone and/or "stereo" microphone input should be reproduced as "stereo". However later (most of time) I simply made mono mix from both channels because in this case (as with any consumer camcorder) audio does not benefit from stereo.

Ok, not "soundtracks" but audio tracks Sorry for my English I am not from English speaking country

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by radiokom

Ok, not "soundtracks" but audio tracks Sorry for my English I am not from English speaking country

Ah, that makes more sense.

[radiokom]

One thing what benefits if "stereo" (or 2 channel) audio track is digitized as 2 track with later mono mix is possibility to make digital phase correction. If audio track is recorded with "stereo" microphone there can be noticeable phase shift. Premiere 6, for example, has a nice option for audio tracks "edit with Adobe Audition". So you can open audio track in Adobe Audition, look at phase spectral display, use automatic phase correction option and then mix to 2 channel mono (along with hiss reduction if necessary and some other filters), normalize to (for example) -3dBFS etc.. And then simply save and go back to Premiere.

[evilnat]

Hello,

I've just bought a DCR-TRV125E PAL Digital8 camera and it also has Video8/Hi8 playback with TBC/DNR. I haven't checked it yet, but according to the manual it should have stereo output too: https://www.sony.com/electronics/sup.../30588722M.pdf

Anyway, could it be that all D8 camcorders with Video8/Hi8 playback have TBC and stereo sound? At least the three I have state that in the manuals: DCR-TRV125E, DCR-TRV230E and DCR-TRV355E

[vwestlife]

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilnat

Anyway, could it be that all D8 camcorders with Video8/Hi8 playback have TBC and stereo sound?

Yes.

Older models don't have a TBC option in the menu, but that just means it's always on. The TBC option gives you the ability to turn it off.

[dpalomaki]

With all this discussion of Video8/Hi8 audio, keep in mind that as implemented all audio is nominally recorded as Hi-Fi. While VHS Hi-Fi is recorded as a left and right channel at separate frequencies, Video8/Hi8 records audio as a mono track (L+R) plus a difference track (L-R). Akin to how FM radio broadcasts stereo. There is no linear track (although the original 8mm video design provided for one, it was rarely if ever implemented) .

This design provides backward compatibility with mono playback devices yielding a HiFi mono signal.

The quality of the stereo effect recorded by the camcorder will depend on the individual camcorders audio design. But in general camcorder mounted mics do not provide good audio, they can provide ambient sound from the venue or of a large ensemble, with poor rendition of talent located more than a couple feet from the camcorder. Further they often suffer from AGC effects and intrusion of sound/noise sources closer to the camcorder.