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  #1  
03-22-2021, 12:10 AM
collegearchivist collegearchivist is offline
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Hello, as this is my first post i'm aware so maybe seems a little sudden but just kind of jumping in with both feet after someone told me this is where I should be able to find answers. Seeking general advice on WHICH CAPTURE CARD to consider buying multiple of for a larger project.

I have alot of videotapes that I am interested in digitizing. It's enough (possibly as many as 1000 or even more) that it is beyond just ripping one per night as I sit at the computer but not so much that only a team could ever even attempt it, but it's like the difference of the guy that buys a flatbed "to scan a dozen slides" vs the guy looking for an auto slide loader because it will pay for itself over the time saved.

Some of the video stuff is personal, some of it is historical for an underfunded college that i'm offering to make this my workstudy equivalent for. (ideally I might get them to pay for the equipment even, but even if not i'm seeking equipment for personal use even if it wouldnt be for as many tapes but they have the larger chunk of the collection of To Be Digitized)

My knee jerk digitization response is to go buy a dozen VCR's and a dozen DVDRW recorders to just rip in realtime then digitize the DVD into the computer for re-encoding. Yet i'm wondering if its better/cheaper/easier to do the same sticking multiple USB capture boxes to one or more desktops/laptops. Ive seen film production mocap people record 4 (to USB2, apparently 6 to USB3 works too) 640x480 USB camera streams to one ten year old core 2 duo laptop with no trouble I mean, and my assumption is it's more about USB bottlenecks, capture boxes that work with one another, whether something might have an issue with macrovision, workflow, etc...

I'm willing to spend up to a few thousand dollars all in on hardware though I have more time than money and ideally things would have more than one use. (multiple computers/older laptops it's no big deal) If it could happen for just hundreds of course that's even better. (just for capture units, not incl computer or VHS players) Like whether it's as simple as hooking four $25 BT878 USB capture units each to 2-3 old thinkpads great but I assume it's probably not. The budget is more determined by "how many hours of time does this save me?" and how many realtime old SD captures per computer in realtime is feasible without fear of dropped frames and such.
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  #2  
03-22-2021, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by collegearchivist View Post
Hello, as this is my first post
Welcome.

Quote:
WHICH CAPTURE CARD to consider buying multiple of for a larger project.
What OS, and version?
Hint: Win7 and WinXP best, Win10 and Mac = problems

Quote:
It's enough (possibly as many as 1000 or even more)
That's a lot, but doable. However, you MUST have the right hardware. At that quantity, you will have many tapes that simply fail to capture well, or at all, if using the wrong gear. Not just a good capture card, but good VCR, and TBC. Otherwise you're a glutton for punishment.

Quote:
but it's like the difference of the guy that buys a flatbed "to scan a dozen slides" vs the guy looking for an auto slide loader because it will pay for itself over the time saved.
Good. Again, back to quality VCR > TBC > capture card, standard workflow.

Quote:
My knee jerk digitization response is to go buy a dozen VCR's and a dozen DVDRW recorders to just rip in realtime then digitize the DVD into the computer for re-encoding.
That will look like crap -- not just being DVD low/mid bitrate compression, but especially if just random recorders. Some DVD recorders (JVC LSI) work quite nicely, but are content based. Source quality needs to be excellent, purified by good VCR and TBC.

Quote:
Yet i'm wondering if its better/cheaper/easier to do the same sticking multiple USB capture boxes to one or more desktops/laptops.
Multiple capture cards = multiple computers.
1 card = 1 computer, 2 = 2, 3=3, etc. Computers cannot multitask capturing. Overlay, HDD, and some aspects will fail. BTW, capturing also cannot be done in a VM.

Quote:
Ive seen film production mocap people record 4 (to USB2, apparently 6 to USB3 works too) 640x480 USB camera streams to one ten year old core 2 duo laptop
Analog capture is different. There are also very special setups that will allow this, it's not just a random computer with random cameras. 640x480 is really not what you want either, but Full D1 (720x480, or 704x480)

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with no trouble I mean, and my assumption is it's more about USB bottlenecks, capture boxes that work with one another, whether something might have an issue with macrovision, workflow, etc...
Yes, all of that and more.

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I'm willing to spend up to a few thousand dollars all in on hardware
That budget works well, exactly what's needed. (Note: Remember the marketplace subforum here, as myself and sometimes others have gear available in there. You don't want to run to eBay and buy random gear, even if BS claimed as "tested" and "working", which is never really is. Then they generally ship it so poorly that it breaks in transit.)

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(multiple computers/older laptops it's no big deal)
The best setups use XP and 7, and are early 2010s systems (desktop, few good laptops).

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If it could happen for just hundreds of course that's even better.
Not unless you buy Chinese crap, Goodwill VCRs, no TBCs, and random comptuers. And you'll find yourself in video purgatory, where nothing gets accomplished, aside from your own misery.

Quote:
(just for capture units, not incl computer or VHS players)
I'll assume that leaves TBC as part of the "capture card" budget? Or no?
It's good that you've excluded the quality VCRs and computers, isolated those to a separate budget. You have a healthy budget here, and can do exactly what you're wanting.

Quote:
Like whether it's as simple as hooking four $25 BT878 USB capture units each to 2-3 old thinkpads great but I assume it's probably not.
No.

Quote:
The budget is more determined by "how many hours of time does this save me?" and how many realtime old SD captures per computer in realtime is feasible without fear of dropped frames and such.
Good budget = good equipment = lots of saved time, saved stress. Those are valid worries. A little video project planning, including workflow, goes a long way to getting good results, saving time, saving sanity.

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  #3  
03-22-2021, 02:40 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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With that kind of budget you should be able to buy like multiple computer setups from Lordsmurf, When you buy a system from him you take the guess work out of the equation because he knows what parts go into it, Just hope that he has enough pieces to make multiple systems.

But this is one of the instances where a hard drive stand alone recorder shines, A system will be like VCR - TBC - Analog2SDI converter - SDI HDD Recorder/encoder to the final playback format, Multiply that by 10 and you will be capturing 60 tapes a day (assuming tapes are 120min and working 12 hrs a day changing tapes), It will take you 20 days to go over 1200 tapes.
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  #4  
05-21-2021, 07:56 AM
collegearchivist collegearchivist is offline
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I'm sorry that this took more than 60 days to respond, I was in the hospital and had some medical complications. Still recovering but future responses this summer will be slow.

On the POSITIVE side the "time crunch" that "all this has to be done ASAP" has relieved considerably. I thought I would have to do them all faster but now I can do it at a more leisurely pace. (because the college that I thought would only have a one year access to the videos it wanted to digitize instead bought outright a library, and now just wants them digitally available "Eventually" though that means about 2-3 years prioritized by topic, ie english language over foreign language and similar/get all the straggler videos at some point)

Lordsmurf THANKS for the wonderfully detailed response. Instead of commenting line by line in a multiquote i'll still respond, but just while composing offline.

Which OS and version is up to me, i've got more than one (paid for) older key I can use, but I was just planning on using Windows 7 with hardware of the same era. (from Core2duo through more recent) I hate Windows 10 so this just convinces me - it will be Windows 7.

On quantity Yes I will need to at least manually review captures, this honeslty will probably be the biggest bottleneck of all. I dont have to view minute by minute but I can scan through looking for trouble areas, or flagging tapes for attempted future recapture. I want to get the low hanging fruit first, and set aside the troublemakers for second or third future attempts.

I've had other people tell me to just use DVD recorders and some have seen tolerable quality - but yes it's not my favorite solution, just an expedient "rip it at any quality or lose it" solution that came to mind. Now that the timeframe has eased a bit I can take it slower, including my own workflow speed. (doing 4 tapes at a time well, instead of 12 fast, etc)

Multiple captures on one computer is possible, I know this from Motion Capture for Film Production - https://docs.ipisoft.com/iPi_Recorder - these guys will throw 4 streams at a time thru USB 2.0 and up to 6 streams to USB 3.0 of video from webcams, though I havent yet asked on their boards whether I can do the same with capture cards though they DO add features on request. Just because I know it can be done doesn't mean that I planned to do it that way - just that I planned to ALSO have the hardware to DO it this way because I was building a motion capture rig for film student use and the more I can buy multipurpose hardware that works for that, as well as capturing 1000 videotapes, so much the better. Ie - expect multiple ThinkPads (like 3-4 laptops minimum, i'm planning at least a 16 camera capture rig - they can only combine the input from up to 16 cameras for one motion capture session but i'm pretty sure I can overlap session video too/I already have a caseload of PS3 Eye webcams for systems beyond 16 streams) with Windows 7.
That said, i'm willing to look into what one capture per computer looks like for better quality and for nothing to contest system resources causing dropped frames and such. Preferably not costing more than $200 per card new or used since I still have to budget for TBC and other things but it's about total system cost mostly. I want to capture to D1 standard def TV from VHS.

You suggest XP and Windows 7 - done. I'm expecting late 2000's for laptops or early 2010's desktop hardware to be available if the Thinkpads aren't enough, I need to set up multiple (up to 3 so far) early 2010's workstations for a different purpose anyways and making them dedicated video rippers as a second purpose is just fine. Warning accepted on "chinese crap" - I can provide the laptops and desktops and OS, it's just about figuring out the best VHS, TBC, and video cards now I guess. Computers aren't a part of the budget/they're already assumed and covered for other uses.
I've seen rips with TBC's and rips without but i've no clue what they cost to do properly or which ones will work. Hell if I had access to an old Amiga with a Video Toaster 4000 and a couple Kitchen Sync's would they somehow work to TBC video for ripping, or is that only for realtime switching?? :-P I dont mind out of the ordinary or unorthodox solutions here, or buying 'wierd' or unusual hardware - as long as it does the job with decent reliability.

To Latreche34 I dont know if i'll have the budget for totally dedicated everything, i'm not doing this as a professional but as a preservationist and a hobby, and some possible college credit. I dont know what some of that hardware costs but I do know my ultimate limit will be seat time to view the finished videos for no more than ( x) time per day while i'm going to college and doing multiple other projects. This can never be more than a side job with maybe 2-3 hours per weekday MAX and that's if i'm churning out like 8 videos a day I think/time will be my limit. The budget is about saving that time as much as possible, i'm not made of money, and i'm borrowing on student loans to make this happen - but it's something important to me to do.
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05-21-2021, 12:13 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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A few general observations:

- Define your ultimate customer(s)/user(s) and their capabilities and limitations. Who will care and feed the system once you move on?
- Determine the ultimate distribution media and format(s) as well as the archival formats. Do you need a low bandwidth easy viewing product as well as a maximally accurate archival copy for possible future processing?
- Do you intend to do any editing and/or sweetening/restoration of the captured video?
- Be careful with using proprietary formats; their support may end suddenly and you end up with orphaned files. A quick glance at the ipisoft web link did not leave me with a warm and cozy feeling.
- Macrovision was mentioned. It was intended to protect intellectual property rights. Be sure you are good on this with respect to digitizing protected material.
- 1000+ tapes is a major undertaking. VCR heads are generally rated for 1000 hours service (record + playback + pause time) before replacement is recommended. The remaining life in used gear is usually unknown.
- Keep in mind that maximum theoretical speed for USB transfers are seldom if ever achieved in the real world. The actual speed achieved will depend on everything else that is going on in the PC and storage media in use, not the least of which is the impact of AV.
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  #6  
05-21-2021, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by collegearchivist View Post
i'm not doing this as a professional
You're also NOT getting advice on how to do it professionally.

Too many people use that phrase to (attempt to) dismiss hardware (or even software) due to unrealistic overly-low budgets. A budget for converting video is not the same as a monthly Netflix fee, regardless of the fact that "both are video".

The statement was actually odd this time, as you do have a good $$$$ budget for getting everything needed.

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  #7  
05-21-2021, 09:01 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Generally speaking, a "professional" has special knowledge of a specific area and gets remunerated for employing that knowledge - it is a significant part of his/her work life. Examples: plumber, electrician, doctor, Foley editor. We all know instances where the a "professional" may be sorely lacking in the expected special knowledge or try to exceed their knowledge limits..

But then non-professionals also can have special knowledge of specific areas.

Some tools and software are identified as "professional" because they are marketed to professionals, fit into the typical professional work flow, often have a corresponding price point, and may be deigned for use by people who do not own the gear, but are hired help. And they may assume specifics about the inputs and outputs, and thus not work well with inputs that depart from those assumptions (not uncommon with consumer home video).

Typically professional gear is expensive, designed to work 7 days a week all day, tolerate ham-handed use, is bulky/heavy, and often so ugly that only a true geek would like to have it on the shelf in their den entertainment center. Price point is not a significant factor in the design, but reliability is.

On the other hand consumer gear is designed to meet a price point and be relatively idiot proof (except for maybe the VCR clock) , and often is a throw-away rather than repairable item.

The focus here tends to be on what works for the people participating here dealing with the various consumer/home video media and formats whether they are professional, amateur, artist, hobbiest, etc..
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05-22-2021, 01:49 PM
collegearchivist collegearchivist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpalomaki View Post
Generally speaking
Ultimate 'customer/user' - for the college videotapes it's digital instruction of future students on a shoestring budget for an underfunded growing school - the future is digital, so putting everything up for 'private streaming' is the goal. For personal videotapes it's me and online preservationists who like things like old television shows not even available on DVD (or no longer available in their original format).

Nobody should need to digitize videotapes once they are all up - both collections are limited in size I mean. For the school my suggestion was for data will be backed up to multiple redundant LTO Ultrium tapes in case the next IT person is an incompetent because it's too much work to do again. If i'm lucky i'll get the school to pay for the LTO drive and the video capture hardware/TBC if I provide the computers to drive them.

Editing/restoration could happen - step one is to just capture the originals as close to raw as possible. Even the video tapes are "good enough" for 30 year old instruction - this is about bringing things into the modern age so people can stream and learn online/from home what they do in class.

Understood on proprietary - that's also what i'm seeking, suggestions on how to future proof this. It's one reason i've settled on storing the eventual workfiles under LTFS on LTO Ultrium tapes, in whatever standard container is fine. H264 or H265 are as common as mp3 but I could be talked into other formats.

Macrovision is only an obstacle to some things. I'm a retro media preservationist - sometimes a TV show was released on videotape, and never on DVD. People at the school heard and asked me to help digitize instructional videotapes from China - the copyright situation with "old video tapes from China" is all over the place including people 'protecting' things they don't own and stole from someone else and all sorts of other bizarreness - under US law i'm using arguments of archival, preservation of rare media, and perhaps fair use for educational purposes. The videotapes were already used for instruction for 20 years in class.

Yes video decks or service as 'expendables' needs to be a part of the big picture. :-P I'll respond to other users later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
With that kind of budget you should be able to buy like multiple computer setups

But this is one of the instances where a hard drive stand alone recorder shines, A system will be like VCR - TBC - Analog2SDI converter - SDI HDD Recorder/encoder to the final playback format, Multiply that by 10 and you will be capturing 60 tapes a day (assuming tapes are 120min and working 12 hrs a day changing tapes), It will take you 20 days to go over 1200 tapes.
If such a system is relatively hands free, no setup or frustration or whatever "just knowing it will work, and work well" and I can just swap and feed it tapes endlessly to fill a hard drive.. yes that might do the job, but what are the costs on that new and used?

Part of my thinking for use of multiple desktops and laptops is "hardware I had to have anyways" - but yes there is also hassle, checking final videos, coordinating multiple computers without being able to multitask other things.. that all adds up too. :- /

I'm fine literally designing up 2-3-4 ways to solve this problem, before finally choosing one when the situation presents itself since I can't act on this for multiple months anyways. At least i'll go in with eyes open.

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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
You're also NOT getting advice on how to do it professionally.

Too many people use that phrase to (attempt to) dismiss hardware (or even software) due to unrealistic overly-low budgets.

The statement was actually odd this time, as you do have a good $$$$ budget for getting everything needed.
Well lemme give an example of where I originally came from... the last time I tried to solve this problem was about 8 years ago. I came about the problem from a different angle - namely that of the final storage system which I thought at the time would be a NAS, so I posted on I think one of the FreeNAS related boards which I was told was going to be all super friendly and nice and wonderful. I wanted to use ZFS to prevent bit rot and plan for things like mirroring and migration of a data archive that could be fairly large.

All I got were sales pitches ranging from $30,000 to well over $100,000 for anyone to even talk to me selling me everything from consulting to redundant Storage Area Networks - or people seemingly either over-complicating the things they were telling me (was that just a sales pitch, ie "youre too stupid to understand this just hand me a check"?) or telling me it was impossible to do what I wanted to on the budget that I had available. It didn't matter if things were charitable, or historical, or that I was trying to preserve things for which there was probably only ONE videotape of something in the entire United States of America, slowly turning to vinegar on a shelf for. (and which now has 8 more years of rot) The helpful community was less helpful than I hoped and I just sh__canned the whole project because everyone kept telling me how impossible it was.

Not to be ungrateful, but absolutely no thanks to the freeNAS people, I found other ways to accomplish the ultimate redundant storage end goal for a few thousand dollars max - of what basically will amount to a redundant array of inexpensive tapes (I can literally lose like two volumes of a set of ten for instance even without a mirror and recover everything) using open source open standards methods all focused on recoverability, so that if all this work is done once it's not in vain. The only remaining bottleneck for me to figure out - is getting that data from videotape source, into the computer in the highest raw quality possible - whether or not it's further processed or re-encoded or anything else.

When I eventually show how I figured out how to do this (after I verify more testing but so far things worked) people will call it a hack or a kludge or 'unprofessional' and yet for $3000 i'll be doing what the people who quoted me $30,000-100,000 to even get started couldn't. If the hacks work I take pride in them, it's about the end product and goal mostly.
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