DV/MiniDV transfer recommended units?

[yumyum8]

Hi all,
I'm banging my head against the wall a bit here. I have a paid project coming up, number of Hi8 tapes (another forum post) and some MiniDV tapes.
I've done some digitization work with personal Video8 tapes before, using a GV-D800 and doing direct to DV output (and after reading forum posts, this may have been a minor mistake... might recapture to S-Video).

My one concern and need is: many DV/DVCAM deck units I looked at ONLY do SP Mode playback for DV tapes. I don't know what my client recorded in, they don't have the original camera or model. So I need a unit that has Firewire out, and that supports LP Mode, unless shooting in that mode was super uncommon.

Currently I have eyes on:
JVC BR-DV3000U (DVCAM+DV)
SONY HVR-1500 (DVCAM+DV)
Sony DSR-45 (DVCAM+DV)
Panasonic AJ-SD930 (DVCPro50)


BUT, after reviewing various forum posts, it sounds like a DVCAM deck is not recommended for MiniDV capture.
My question, beyond LordSmurf's post:

• Why are the pro decks not recommended? My impression is they're built like tanks and made to last enough, and that consumer camcorder units are gonna be junk. Yes they may have higher hours but many ads list run usages.
• If a pro deck IS fine, any issues getting a DVCPro50 deck as a "best in class" unit, Do It All machine?
  
• What consumer camcorder units are recommended then? Remember I need a unit that does FW output, and supports LP Mode Playback.
  

My software setup is Linux, using dvgrab. I used that for my video8 tapes no problem (another topic).
I capture S-Video to a hauppage, using ffmpeg for headless no-GUI transfers, saving to ffv1 lossless compressed format.

Oh and just to say, I'm no guy/gal doing 10$ craigslist transfers. I have a strong passion for archival work and doing things right, I just got excited when I got the GV-D800 and forgot to do some research before working!

And I agree with LordSmurf, DV to a file IS A TRANSFER, not a capture! Copy to copy, 1:1!
Thanks and everyone keep staying safe!

[lordsmurf]

I want to give some more context, to avoid any confusion.

For the VHS comments, that post refers to the EOL era of VHS, late 90s and early 00s, using prosumer HR-S###x and latter "Professional" SR-xx### gear. What you refer to is late 80s and early 90s "pro", which is different. Those decks were not intended for consumer VHS playback, and in fact often play those tapes with more issues. The decks were made for editing, recording, not really playback.

Most 80s/90s pro S-VHS decks were built like tanks, but it was due to abuse in those pro environments. Broadcast, medical, education, and government folks didn't own the gear, and thus didn't pay any attention to how it was treated. Also lots of interns, etc, people that didn't know what they were doing. So "built like a tank" can still be a bad unit -- and in fact, most often is the case. Some were even yucky, used in medical facilities, so the units may be crawling with unknown bacteria and viral agents, even if dead (hopefully!?).

DVCPro50 is entirely different. Those were generally used by shooters, who generally were a wee more careful than your average user in studio and broadcast.

You need avoid JVC DV VCRs (or combos). Their DV has design flaws, and will eat tapes eventually. Most decks already do, long since failed (2000s). In general, there's really no reason to own a MiniDV VCR. But for DVCPro50, you may be forced. However, a good camera is usually still better, those "multi-DV" (MiniDV, DVC, etc) VCRs still worked worse.

DVCAM, DVCPro, and MiniDV are all different.

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by yumyum8

Hi all,

...What consumer camcorder units are recommended then? Remember I need a unit that does FW output, and supports LP Mode Playback...

As a rule, the actual working condition of the camcorder now in 2021, even today, this minute, is more important than the brand and model. Only one tiny fault in any camera or deck is enough to stop it performing, regardless of how "pro" its pedigree. Of course this makes it harder to know what to buy but it's the sad truth. "Pro" gear is more likely to have more "miles on the clock".

The DV camcorders I am aware of recorded and played SP and LP, and had FW connectivity.

[dpalomaki]

Keep in mind that MiniDV tapes recorded at LP speed may have playback issues in a different machine from the original recorder. (See the warnings in the camcorder manuals.) This is due to the narrow track width and pitch. It is also why the professional format gear such as DVCAM does not support LP speed playback.

I use the Canon MiniDV camcorders, such as the VIXIA HV-series for Playback of both MiniDV and HDV tapes. They also offered HDMI and component outputs.

[cbehr91]

I'm confused, do you have more than just MiniDV tapes? If you just have MiniDV tapes just get a camcorder with FireWire. The brand doesn't really matter. If your PC lacks a FireWire port buy a card from Newegg or something.

[latreche34]

You're little late to the party, I snatched the Sony HVR-M15AU back when they were around $150 on ebay, Those suckers play every DV format (DV, DVCAM, HDV) in both full size and mini size cassettes, PAL and NTSC in 480, 720 and 1080 at 60i, 50i, 30p, 25p and 24p, They are a size of car radio, pretty compact and slick.

If you have a lot of work and full size cassettes that cannot be done with a camcorder it might be worth it to get one for around $600 if you're lucky, they usually go for $1500 for less than 100 hrs use.

[yumyum8]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I want to give some more context, to avoid any confusion.

For the VHS comments, that post refers to the EOL era of VHS, late 90s and early 00s, using prosumer HR-S###x and latter "Professional" SR-xx### gear. What you refer to is late 80s and early 90s "pro", which is different. Those decks were not intended for consumer VHS playback, and in fact often play those tapes with more issues. The decks were made for editing, recording, not really playback.

Most 80s/90s pro S-VHS decks were built like tanks, but it was due to abuse in those pro environments. Broadcast, medical, education, and government folks didn't own the gear, and thus didn't pay any attention to how it was treated. Also lots of interns, etc, people that didn't know what they were doing. So "built like a tank" can still be a bad unit -- and in fact, most often is the case.

Oh... now I've pieced it together. Despite the pro-decks being built to be used by pros, the pros abused them because of high workloads and limited concern for using it caringly.
I've had a hard time finding an S-VHS deck for myself. I feel anxious to order one from ebay given how sensitive those units are, and you can pack so well but still, packages get abused in transit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Some were even yucky, used in medical facilities, so the units may be crawling with unknown bacteria and viral agents, even if dead (hopefully!?).

I was wondering why you said this specifically in your original post, now it makes sense!

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

DVCPro50 is entirely different. Those were generally used by shooters, who generally were a wee more careful than your average user in studio and broadcast.

You need avoid JVC DV VCRs (or combos). Their DV has design flaws, and will eat tapes eventually. Most decks already do, long since failed (2000s decks). In general, there's really no reason to own a MiniDV VCR. But for DVCPro50, you may be forced. However, a good camera is usually still better, those "multi-DV" (MiniDV, DVC, etc) VCRs still worked worse.

DVCAM, DVCPro, and MiniDVD are all different.

Yeah for this project, no DVCPro50 or DVC large format tapes, so fair enough I don't need a full deck. The client has offered the original miniDV camera too, which I'm hoping has DV out (wouldn't all of them?).

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpalomaki

Keep in mind that MiniDV tapes recorded at LP speed may have playback issues in a different machine from the original recorder. (See the warnings in the camcorder manuals.) This is due to the narrow track width and pitch. It is also why the professional format gear such as DVCAM does not support LP speed playback.

I use the Canon MiniDV camcorders, such as the VIXIA HV-series for Playback of both MiniDV and HDV tapes. They also offered HDMI and component outputs.

Thanks for the tips! My client has offered their original camcorder so I should be safe if any were recorded in LP mode. The VIXIA HV series lookin credible, but quite pricey on ebay.
Any comment on the Canon Elura's? Seem like more budget oriented models, finding a few at good prices. They have S-Video and DV out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbehr91

I'm confused, do you have more than just MiniDV tapes? If you just have MiniDV tapes just get a camcorder with FireWire. The brand doesn't really matter. If your PC lacks a FireWire port buy a card from Newegg or something.

I only have MiniDV tapes right now, and I do have FireWire ports. I'm eyeing some other camcorders as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

You're little late to the party, I snatched the Sony HVR-M15AU back when they were around $150 on ebay, Those suckers play every DV format (DV, DVCAM, HDV) in both full size and mini size cassettes, PAL and NTSC in 480, 720 and 1080 at 60i, 50i, 30p, 25p and 24p, They are a size of car radio, pretty compact and slick.

If you have a lot of work and full size cassettes that cannot be done with a camcorder it might be worth it to get one for around $600 if you're lucky, they usually go for $1500 for less than 100 hrs use.

Wow... this looks incredible, I definitely missed the boat on video hardware in general it seems
Gonna set an ebay alert for these, I see a few around 600-700 range, but I don't need one yet.
The HVR-1500A looks like a similar model and support but with explicit front-loading.

[hodgey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by yumyum8

Yeah for this project, no DVCPro50 or DVC large format tapes, so fair enough I don't need a full deck. The client has offered the original miniDV camera too, which I'm hoping has DV out (wouldn't all of them?).

Part of the advantage of DV over earlier analog formats was that it was digital so one could dub and edit without generation loss, thus having the firewire output was pretty important. Never heard of any comsumer camcorders lacking DV out, but I know some of the later compact Sony ones had the firewire port on a "handycam station"/cradle thing that they slot into, so one has to make sure it comes with all the accessories. (Granted, at least the two I have that has that system are also made so you have to take the camcorder out and re-plug the power cable to insert/eject a tape unless you have a working battery, so they're not really ideal anyhow.)

Also, as far as I know, most (or all?) Sony camcorders will play back miniDV tapes that were recorded DVCAM format (used in more high end professional-oriented cameras), but not sure if other brands will.

I do think there are some of the big-ass pro DV format VCRs that did not always have a firewire output included though, relying on SDI output instead but that's really only something one would mess with if dealing with the broadcast DV variants.

[dpalomaki]

Quote:

Part of the advantage of DV over earlier analog formats was that it was digital so one could dub and edit without generation loss, thus having the firewire output was pretty important.

Additional advantages include:
- More luma bandwidth: 500 video lines vs. 240 or 400 for VHS/S-VHS and V8ideo8/Hi8.
- Much more chroma bandwidth: On the order of 120 video lines vs 40 lines for the analog formats.
- Better signal to noise (subject to the limitations of the original camera head).

Some other items of mixed blessing
- A generally solid playback if the tape could be read. It was essentially all or nothing, not the gradual loss of image playback quality/stability often seen in the analog formats.
- The tiny tape (6 mm wide) made tape defects such as drop outs more problematic. LP recording speed was especially problematic due to track pitch.
- The DV format was good for initial capture, especially of low noise video, but not not as an intermediate format for clean-up/restoration. The reduced chroma (4:2:0 or 4:1:1) and compression allowed for higher cumulative artifact buildup than the preferred 4:2:2 loss-less formats. Cuts-only editing could be lossless if no recoding was involved.

I have encountered a few MiniDV tapes where a S-VIDEO capture worked better than firewire because the camcorders internals applied dropout compensation to the analog output.

Worth noting that s-video chroma output from VHS/S-VHS/8mm/Hi-8 is crippled by the color under AM recording format that cuts the potential chroma bandwidth to around 1/4 of what s-video can carry and allows more noise to enter compared tho the FM used for luma. (A product of the tapes ~620-730 kHz chroma carrier frequency vs 3.58 mHz color carrier for s-video chroma).

There are various claims about video tapes losing signal over time. The larger problem is physical deterioration due to storage conditions; apparently a stable 30% humidity and 62 F are best. Swings in temp and humidity are to be avoided.

Some research has indicated that the level of recorded signal on magnetic tape may decline perhaps 10-20% over 25 years. That will of course depend on the tape formulation. This decline will mainly impact the AM recorded portion of the tape initially; e.g., chroma and linear audio. AGC in the player should correct for this, but not all gear will do that and it may account for tales of color fade with VHS tapes over time.

Excluding the issue of physical damage, fading video is not likely a crisis for most people and tapes - from the standpoint of the tape there likely is time to do it right, but we still need to do it while we can.

FWIW: I have VHS tape from back as far as 1979 and audio tapes from the early 1960s, stored in normal home/residential environments, that still play OK.

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpalomaki

...There are various claims about video tapes losing signal over time. The larger problem is physical deterioration due to storage conditions; apparently a stable 30% humidity and 62 F are best. Swings in temp and humidity are to be avoided.

Some research has indicated that the level of recorded signal on magnetic tape may decline perhaps 10-20% over 25 years. That will of course depend on the tape formulation. This decline will mainly impact the AM recorded portion of the tape initially; e.g., chroma and linear audio. AGC in the player should correct for this, but not all gear will do that and it may account for tales of color fade with VHS tapes over time. ..

I'm not sure whether tapes routinely lose some of their magnetic imprint. We need a controlled sample which hasn't been played or otherwise demagnetized and which has had the levels of the initial recording documented and confirmed. Very easy for errors to creep into the assessment.

[dpalomaki]

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

I'm not sure whether tapes routinely lose some of their magnetic imprint. We need a controlled sample which hasn't been played or otherwise demagnetized and which has had the levels of the initial recording documented and confirmed. Very easy for errors to creep into the assessment.

This has been studied. Search topic is "magnetic remenance decay"
1994 appears to have been a watershed year when Sony introduced a "Reformulated Metal Particle" tape with much lower decay rates. The old iron oxide tapes appear to be more stable.

sportsvideo.org/main/files/2010/08/video-tape-white-paper.pdf
provides one source of information and cites studies by Adv. Dev. Corp., Sony, and Fuji. (The paper also provides information on other forms of tape deterioration.)

While it did not speak specifically to the consumer formats, key extracts are attached as a quick reference.

Because chroma is recorded as an amplitude modulated signal on the consumer formats, this gradual loss (e.g., perhaps 2 dB over 25 years) can have an effect on what you see.

[timtape]

I found Dr Richard Keatinge's White Paper quite confused. Many facts correct but some strange conclusions drawn. Do you know in what field he received his doctorate?

If the topic is the tape's loss of magnetic remanence, then the tape should be the focus, not the format. It shouldnt matter whether it is 2" Quad, 1" Sony Type C, or the electronic arrangement of the signal on the tape such as Betamax vs VHS.

I agree with you that in practice, natural loss of remanence in tapes stored well over many years doesnt seem to be a major problem, at least compared to potentially more serious problems such as tape flooding, mould, damage from the playback machine etc which can be catastrophic. I believe Metal formulation tapes (MP and ME) are very vulnerable to water damage. Once the pure metal particles are exposed to water, they oxidise and swell, and the tape is unplayable. That applies to Video 8, Hi 8, SVHS, DV etc.

[dpalomaki]

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

I... Do you know in what field he received his doctorate?

If the topic is the tape's loss of magnetic remanence, then the tape should be the focus, not the format. ...

Don't know his PHd field. The underlying studies were done at Cal Tech and Bureau of Standards.

Focus was on format because that is how the target audience for the article thinks, not the chemistry of the tape's magnetic layer. (I believe the piece was written for end users of tape - probably sports broadcasters, and was trying to reach the suits that make the spending decisions.) Also, the various formats tended to share similar chemistries among the several brands. e.g., DV and DVC are mainly MP and ME (Metal Particle and Evaporated technologies).

Per the studies, high humidity is the single greatest threat to tape. It makes an interesting read.

[cbehr91]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

I do think there are some of the big-ass pro DV format VCRs that did not always have a firewire output included though, relying on SDI output instead but that's really only something one would mess with if dealing with the broadcast DV variants.

I have never not seen FireWire (a.k.a DV in/out) on a DV or DVCAM deck, but it was largely an afterthought on DVCPRO equipment due to the format being targeted toward broadcasters, where the decks would be dropped in to existing composite and/or SDI infrastructure at a TV station without the need to upgrade/change existing video routing systems. (Remember it was the late 90s when analog NTSC broadcasting was composite.)

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpalomaki

...Per the studies, high humidity is the single greatest threat to tape...

It's more than that. On its own, Binder Hydrolysis, to use his term, doesnt necessarily render a tape sitting on a shelf for 50 years useless and irretrieveable. The real problem is unwittingly trying to PLAY such a tape in that state. In some cases just trying to spool the tape directly to a take up reel -however carefully - is enough to rip the magnetic coating of the base layer, bye bye recording.

Which leads naturally to "What do we do now with our videotapes with Binder Hydrolysis?"