Setting ATI TV Wonder USB 2.0 audio levels?

[dudemcgraw]

I have been digitizing some old VHS tapes and some of them have pops here and there which I fear might be audio clipping from the recording and not actually present on the tape. My workflow is JVC S-VHS -> AVT TBC -> ATI TV Wonder USB 2.0 -> Windows XP machine -> VirtualDub. I have tried changing the audio level in VirtualDub but it doesn't seem to make a difference. The system setting takes me to the Windows menu for the built in soundcard but it is at zero because I'm not actually using it.

Is there a way to bring the level down on the capture device? I can't seem to find any way to adjust it.

Thanks!

[mputerio]

I am new to this forum but my first thought is to use an external audio mixer (you can get a cheap 4 channel mixer on Amazon for like $20) and use that before the capture card to adjust your audio levels.

[dudemcgraw]

I had actually considered that, but bringing in another piece of hardware is not ideal. I would prefer to find a software solution before going that route, if possible. Thanks!

[mputerio]

I’ll preface this with the fact that I am not an expert as I indicated earlier, but I believe that if your audio levels are exceeding the range of the capture card and are therefore clipping, your audio signal is already degraded before it gets to the software layer so I think you would have to either lower the audio level coming from your VCR, or use an external volume control/mixer to bring down the levels to where the A/D on the capture card can see the whole signal. You could also try bypassing the TBC for the audio which I have seen lordsmurf recommend in other threads but I don’t know if that necessarily has anything to do with the volume levels. Good luck 👍

[nicholasserra]

My ATI TV Wonder 600 USB requires tweaking a registry value to adjust the volume. Is it the same for this card?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudemcgraw

and there which I fear might be audio clipping from the recording and not actually present on the tape.

Possible, though not as likely with this card. The audio processing of the AIW USB isn't as nice as the TBSC paired to internal AIW, but it's still superior to most everything else.

Quote:

I have tried changing the audio level in VirtualDub but it doesn't seem to make a difference. The system setting takes me to the Windows menu for the built in soundcard but it is at zero because I'm not actually using it.
Is there a way to bring the level down on the capture device? I can't seem to find any way to adjust it.

Almost all USB capture cards have fixed audio values, generally at a proper 50-60% range. The cards wanted to protect users from themselves (aka, user error, input too loud).

Quote:

Originally Posted by mputerio

I am new to this forum but my first thought is to use an external audio mixer

Correct.

Quote:

(you can get a cheap 4 channel mixer on Amazon for like $20)

I'm not sure I'd want to use a $20 mixer. I have a Tapco (essentially same as Mackie, Behringer), and it was under $75 back when I got it (20+ years ago?). Mine has multi EQs. These days, $60 gets the name brand mixer, small foorprint unit, minimal 1-2 EQs. Budget to $100 or so, and you get at least 3-6 EQs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudemcgraw

I had actually considered that, but bringing in another piece of hardware is not ideal. I would prefer to find a software solution before going that route, if possible. Thanks!

There isn't one. The audio must be handled externally, pre-ingest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mputerio

I’ll preface this with the fact that I am not an expert as I indicated earlier, but I believe that if your audio levels are exceeding the range of the capture card and are therefore clipping, your audio signal is already degraded before it gets to the software layer so I think you would have to either lower the audio level coming from your VCR, or use an external volume control/mixer to bring down the levels to where the A/D on the capture card can see the whole signal.

Correct.

Quote:

You could also try bypassing the TBC for the audio which I have seen lordsmurf recommend in other threads

Only the TBC-1000 has audio input, as part of the distribution amp VP299. It should never be used, possible degrade of audio for non-split. It should be passed, not processed or attenuated in any way. Bypass audio from VCR to capture card.

^ This isn't a concern here, as he's using a Cypress model TBC, video in/out only.

Quote:

but I don’t know if that necessarily has anything to do with the volume levels.

It does not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicholasserra

My ATI TV Wonder 600 USB requires tweaking a registry value to adjust the volume. Is it the same for this card?

Not for this card.

[dudemcgraw]

Whatever the card is outputting, VirtualDub is recording with peaks right at 0db for the most part. I have found some evidence of overmodulation, but I can't tell if that's from the source tape or not. I think some of the pops I am hearing are from the tape, but when I run the same segment twice they don't always appear in the same place or sound exactly the same. I don't have a good way of independently monitoring the audio with my current setup.

Is there a mixer you would recommend? I was looking at this one as it is small and doesn't require power. It's passive so no EQ, but I am trying to keep things as simple as possible.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...OLL3J3K6&psc=1

Thanks!

[lordsmurf]

BTW, also realize that speakers can cause pops. So what are you using? Realize that most people think they have "good speakers", but few actually are. What matters is the response curve. I use near-reference Monsoons still in top condition, never abused.

"doesn't require power" is almost never good. Ironically, the reason is various feedback. I guess it has no shielding like powered units. You can try it, but it may make issues worse. I have little to no faith in that sort of item.

[traal]

I use this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07GRLV7XG/

[dudemcgraw]

The pops are definitely present on the recording and not coming from the speakers. I can see them visibly on the spectral view of the waveform when I open it up in Adobe Audition. I can even "heal" them. They don't exclusively coincide with the the peaks at 0db either, so they could be the result of an old tape. It could just be that I'm looking for problems, and thus finding them. I'm still relatively new at this and finding my way.

That being said, it would be helpful to have some more control over the final audio levels that are being recorded in VirtualDub. This equipment is expensive and difficult to service, so when I run a tape I want to make sure it's done exactly right. Is there a mixer that you would recommend, since not the one I've been looking at? If need be, I can make space for something small in my setup if it would improve the audio quality.

Thanks!

[lordsmurf]

I would rather you seek problems, then seek ways to fix, rather than be oblivious (including intentionally oblivious, aka head up ass, aka many Youtubers that give terrible "advice"). You care.

And now you're learning about possible fixes, as well as limitations (ie, cannot be fixed, either well or at all).

You're in a good place right now.

Any Behringer or Mackie in the $60 range is small, and quality.
This is a tiny little thing, probably smaller than your TBC: https://amzn.to/3IhsUXh

[dudemcgraw]

I appreciate the advice and encouragement. Since I'm adding a component, I'm going to get new RCA cables as well just to make sure that cabling isn't an issue. Is there a particular brand you would suggest? I think I'm going to get everything from B&H because they're local. They seem to recommend Kopul. Thanks!

[Hushpower]

I use one of these:

https://www.ebay.com.au/p/902630581

[mputerio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudemcgraw

I'm going to get new RCA cables as well just to make sure that cabling isn't an issue. Is there a particular brand you would suggest? I think I'm going to get everything from B&H because they're local. They seem to recommend Kopul. Thanks!

I agree that B&H is great and have ordered from them a few times before. Personally I just bought some new cables from Amazon, from the "PigHog" brand, and am impressed with the quality of these cables: https://www.amazon.com/Pig-Hog-Cable-Black-PDRCA06/dp/B017Y499NS

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I'm not sure I'd want to use a $20 mixer. I have a Tapco (essentially same as Mackie, Behringer), and it was under $75 back when I got it (20+ years ago?). Mine has multi EQs. These days, $60 gets the name brand mixer, small foorprint unit, minimal 1-2 EQs. Budget to $100 or so, and you get at least 3-6 EQs.

Thank you for your input! I have been learning a lot reading these forums over the past week or so, especially your posts. I am setting up to digitize my parents' collection of video8 camcorder tapes (okay and somewhat of an excuse to build a home multimedia studio) and got:
- Mackie 802vlz4 audio mixer
- ATI AIW 600 USB capture card,
- ES10 DVD recorder for TBC-ish passthrough
- CCD-TRV615 and DCR-TRV530 camcorders for the actual playback.
(ebay for everything except the mixer to save $$)

I couldn't find a "reasonably priced" TBC anywhere, and finally realized it was going to cost a lot, so I bit the bullet and ordered the Singmai sm03 video processor for use as a full frame TBC. We will see how it works. No offense intended to you or anyone on the marketplace, but I figured in this price range I would try a new product vs an older used TBC. Maybe I will regret this decision. The sm03 outputs SDI and I opted for the magewell pci-e SDI capture card that Singmai sells as an optional accessory with their product. I plan to compare this vs using the ES10 for passthrough into the AIW USB. I thought I struck gold when I found the Datavideo TBC100 on Omegamultimedia.com, only to have them inform me that this product was no longer available (as I feared). I found a Cypress CTB-100 on Neobits.com for ~$550 but given your numerous posts expressing iffy quality with these which I understand to be equivalent to the black AVT8710 boxes, this also pushed me toward the newer but less well known sm03.

I also likely have some VHS tapes to digitize so I found a JVC SR-VS30U on ebay that says the MiniDV drive eats tapes but the VHS side works, and figure that should be perfect.

Still waiting for a few things to come in but I feel much more prepared to get the best video quality from these tapes vs my original plan of a $20 composite capture card before I stumbled on this forum. And good knowing that there is a healthy secondhand market for these products if I decide to sell everything when done.
Anyway, sorry to hijack this thread..

[Hushpower]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mputerio

The sm03 outputs SDI and I opted for the magewell pci-e SDI capture card that Singmai sells as an optional accessory with their product. I plan to compare this vs using the ES10 for passthrough into the AIW USB.

This will be very, very interesting. Make sure you tell us how it goes, perhaps in a new topic.

[mputerio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hushpower

This will be very, very interesting. Make sure you tell us how it goes, perhaps in a new topic.

Will do! I saw another thread where Lordsmurf was commenting on this device where someone else was basically asking the same question I had "is this another potential TBC" and it looked like nobody had an answer. Singmai told me last week that they were going to start building another batch of the sm03 on 7/11 (yesterday) and had to order the pci-e card (I only bought it through them since it was cheaper than buying separately) and I haven't heard back since, so hopefully they ship it out soon. I'm new to all of this but have experience with VirtualDub from many years ago so I'll have to figure everything out once I get all the hardware but I'm looking forward to it.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mputerio

I couldn't find a "reasonably priced" TBC anywhere, and finally realized it was going to cost a lot, so I bit the bullet and ordered the Singmai sm03 video processor for use as a full frame TBC.

I highly doubt that will be the outcome. So far, it seems to be just another SDI converter. TBC is also never claimed, but merely "enhancer and synchroniser." The problem here is that it can mean almost anything, especially in performance, especially for consumer analog sources. Oversampling gets lots of attention, but historically that's always a gimmick. Some of the other claims are also dubious, statements I've seen on devices for 20+ years now (and most are often nonsense). I'm not paying $1k to test another paperweight. If they want me to try it, they can send one here.

Quote:

the AIW USB.

ATI 600 USB is not ATI AIW USB. Different cards.

Quote:

I thought I struck gold when I found the Datavideo TBC100 on Omegamultimedia.com, only to have them inform me that this product was no longer available (as I feared).

Most sites have ghost listings, especially anything from DataVideo.

Quote:

I found a Cypress CTB-100 on Neobits.com

Anything sold new will be guaranteed defective.

Quote:

Still waiting for a few things to come in but I feel much more prepared to get the best video quality from these tapes vs my original plan of a $20 composite capture card before I stumbled on this forum. And good knowing that there is a healthy secondhand market for these products if I decide to sell everything when done.

Well, you're sort-of on the right path. I think you're making the mistake of getting lost in the tech, mostly due to budget/cost-cutting, as opposed to buying and using the tech (and reselling when done) that is known to give results. Experimenting is fun and all, but not when you have a task to complete.

[mputerio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I highly doubt that will be the outcome. So far, it seems to be just another SDI converter. TBC is also never claimed, but merely "enhancer and synchroniser." The problem here is that it can mean almost anything, especially in performance, especially for consumer analog sources. Oversampling gets lots of attention, but historically that's always a gimmick. Some of the other claims are also dubious, statements I've seen on devices for 20+ years now (and most are often nonsense). I'm not paying $1k to test another paperweight. If they want me to try it, they can send one here.

That makes sense. In my email to Singmai I told them I was looking for a full frame TBC/synchronizer and they told me this is "exactly what their product is for". So of course that's from the people selling the thing, and will have to be determined in testing, to your point of "my toaster has a TBC if it says it on the box". I saw your post expressing this concern in another topic and ordered it understanding I was taking a risk into uncharted territories.

Quote:

ATI 600 USB is not ATI AIW USB. Different cards.

Thank you for the clarification. I realized my PC that I revived for this has a PCI (non express) slot, so that should open up my options if I have issues with the hardware I have now.

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Most sites have ghost listings, especially anything from DataVideo.

Anything sold new will be guaranteed defective.

At least my instinct here was right.

Quote:

Well, you're sort-of on the right path. I think you're making the mistake of getting lost in the tech, mostly due to budget/cost-cutting, as opposed to buying and using the tech (and reselling when done) that is known to give results. Experimenting is fun and all, but not when you have a task to complete.

This is a fair point. Fortunately this is a task for my family with no rush or immediate deadline, on tapes which seem to be in good shape. I'm not going to attempt to counter this, since you're hitting the nail on the head here, given I've been lost in tech most of my life

I know this wouldn't cut it for a professional/client job, but this project started when a coworker at a previous job gave me a great condition Sony video walkman GV-S50 a few years ago, which allowed me to play these family tapes for the first time since the camcorder they were recorded on broke who knows how long ago. My father who wants the video on DVD was happy with the quality of video output from the GV-S50 composite out onto his 40 or 50" (I forget) plasma TV.

So while I know this is a point you discredit in the articles on this main site talking about "what makes a professional", the bar for acceptible quality here should be easy to beat given what I have now + I see it as a learning opportunity (and expensive hobby) for myself.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mputerio

So while I know this is a point you discredit in the articles on this main site talking about "what makes a professional", the bar for acceptible quality here should be easy to beat given what I have now + I see it as a learning opportunity (and expensive hobby) for myself.

I need to finish the opposite article "What makes a home/hobby workflow?" because it's not random items. In recent times, "I'm not a professional, so I don't need XYZ" has come up. But that's also not true. The article does touch on non-pro (which FYI, is how I started into video, video is merely my unintended/accidental career). There is a wider range for home use, lots of caveats need to be listed, between bottom-barrel options (cross fingers, pray), mid grade, and pro gear. But not random, not whatever Amazon has for $1 on Prime Day.

But you know this. Mostly posting for other readers that may stumble into the thread and read.

[mputerio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I need to finish the opposite article "What makes a home/hobby workflow?" because it's not random items. In recent times, "I'm not a professional, so I don't need XYZ" has come up. But that's also not true. The article does touch on non-pro (which FYI, is how I started into video, video is merely my unintended/accidental career). There is a wider range for home use, lots of caveats need to be listed, between bottom-barrel options (cross fingers, pray), mid grade, and pro gear. But not random, not whatever Amazon has for $1 on Prime Day.

But you know this. Mostly posting for other readers that may stumble into the thread and read.

I would be interested to read that article. I appreciate your honest take on all thing A/V since while of course myself and others will attempt to justify less than professional gear as "acceptable" mostly to ourselves as an excuse for not being able to afford or for not selecting the right gear, everyone would prefer to have the best setup possible given the opportunity.

I came across a number of threads on other websites/forums from people complaining that "I don't want to hear about needing a TBC, most people can't afford a $1500 device" and found that advice less than helpful .