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03-29-2023, 09:14 AM
cnole cnole is offline
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Hello. First time posting.

I recently purchased a Datavideo TBC-5000. When I received it yesterday and inserted it into my workflow, I did not notice any discernible difference in the footage I was trying to capture (VHS and VHS-c tapes I have previously had issues with).

A bit of background...I'm using a MacPro (trashcan edition). My current workflow is AG-1980 (s-video out) > Black Magic Analog to SDI miniConverter > Black Magic UltraStudio miniRecorder > Mac via Thunderbolt 2. I generally capture into Black Magic Media Express, and this setup usually works pretty well for me. The most common issue I am having is footage bouncing slightly up and down, which is most noticeable when the date/time stamp is there. Long story short, after finding this forum, I realized I was missing a frame TBC and hoped that would solve most of these issues. Like I said before, so far it has not.

I am currently trying to troubleshoot. As you probably know, trying to digitize with Black Magic without a TBC results in constant loss of signal and black screens. When I am playing out of the AG-1980 with the TBC on, it is fine, with or without the TBC-5000 in the middle. However, even with the TBC-5000 in the mix, when I turn off the deck's internal TBC, the signal drops return. My first question is, if the footage is running through the TBC-5000, should that signal loss be happening? Or should it be stable?

Thanks in advance for your time and any assistance you can provide.
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  #2  
03-29-2023, 10:28 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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As per PM, the TBC-5000 is fine.

Frame TBCs should have no discernible difference to image quality, aka good transparency. The reason for the frame TBC is to remove standard signal issues, which will cause issues in a capture workflow that lacks TBCs. Frame TBC cleans/fixes the signal for digital acquisition.

Frame TBC is not line TBC.
Line TBC is what cleans the image, removes timing wiggles, etc.

A defective frame TBC makes the signal worse, which isn't the case here.

The issue is likely that Blackmagic card. BM cards are infamous, known for allowing (or inducing) dropped frames (or other frame based issues, just as jitter, AV desyn, etc), even with line+frame TBCs in use. The cards simply suck at consumer analog formats (VHS, etc), something that BM finally now admits in more recent years.

The 5000 choke point is below 1000, above TBC(ish), near the Kramer 400. If the 5000 drops here, the BM is simply not properly accepting the signal being input.

The issue you're running into here is independent of any TBC. The hope was that frame TBC could correct your issues, as it does with other cards. But sometimes the BM card is simply a monumental PITA and cannot be compensated for.

"Bouncing" (laymen jitter; not technical "jitter") is usually a byproduct of the initial frame lines being missing or damaged. The frame TBC prevents those from creating further mess downstream, and sometimes removes or mitigates it. And sometimes not. The exact cause and extent of the signal damage causing the jitter matters.

Are you properly capture interlaced SD as interlaced SD? No deinterlace, no HD capturing, etc?

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  #3  
03-29-2023, 11:18 AM
cnole cnole is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Frame TBCs should have no discernible difference to image quality, aka good transparency. The reason for the frame TBC is to remove standard signal issues, which will cause issues in a capture workflow that lacks TBCs. Frame TBC cleans/fixes the signal for digital acquisition.
I guess I misspoke. I would expect the image to have the same quality, but without the technical issues, ie. jittering.

Quote:
A defective frame TBC makes the signal worse, which isn't the case here.
Not trying to imply that it is broken. Was wondering if I was doing something wrong or if it just wasn't the right tool for what I was trying to accomplish, given my existing tools.

Quote:
The cards simply suck at consumer analog formats (VHS, etc), something that BM finally now admits in more recent years
That may be generally true, but I have found it to work pretty well with the AG-1980 and my JVC with line TBC.

Quote:
The 5000 choke point is below 1000, above TBC(ish), near the Kramer 400.
I don't know what this means.

Quote:
Are you properly capture interlaced SD as interlaced SD?
Yes, interlaced SD.
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  #4  
03-29-2023, 11:55 AM
jjdd jjdd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cnole View Post
Hello. First time posting.

I recently purchased a Datavideo TBC-5000. When I received it yesterday and inserted it into my workflow, I did not notice any discernible difference in the footage I was trying to capture (VHS and VHS-c tapes I have previously had issues with).

A bit of background...I'm using a MacPro (trashcan edition). My current workflow is AG-1980 (s-video out) > Black Magic Analog to SDI miniConverter > Black Magic UltraStudio miniRecorder > Mac via Thunderbolt 2. I generally capture into Black Magic Media Express, and this setup usually works pretty well for me. The most common issue I am having is footage bouncing slightly up and down, which is most noticeable when the date/time stamp is there. Long story short, after finding this forum, I realized I was missing a frame TBC and hoped that would solve most of these issues. Like I said before, so far it has not.

I am currently trying to troubleshoot. As you probably know, trying to digitize with Black Magic without a TBC results in constant loss of signal and black screens. When I am playing out of the AG-1980 with the TBC on, it is fine, with or without the TBC-5000 in the middle. However, even with the TBC-5000 in the mix, when I turn off the deck's internal TBC, the signal drops return. My first question is, if the footage is running through the TBC-5000, should that signal loss be happening? Or should it be stable?

Thanks in advance for your time and any assistance you can provide.
Hi i have a Datavideo TBC-5000 you need to change VTR ON on the Dip Switches if the source is bad

VTR: Revision picture quality when VHS source

here is a picture from the user manual


Attached Images
File Type: jpg TBC-5000.jpg (38.3 KB, 14 downloads)
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  #5  
03-29-2023, 12:05 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Good call! Now it should already be set. But shipping sometimes has a way of moving switches. These are tiny, but it can happen.

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  #6  
03-29-2023, 05:06 PM
cnole cnole is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjdd View Post
Hi i have a Datavideo TBC-5000 you need to change VTR ON on the Dip Switches if the source is bad
Which is "on," up or down? All the switches are up currently.

-- merged --

Let me ask you this: if I were able to output from the AG-1980 to a broadcast monitor (without the 5000) AND separately to the computer through the TBC-5000, should I be seeing the same thing on both? Or would the monitor show the jitter and the computer would have an adjusted picture?

-- merged --

I think I now understand what you meant by line TBC cleans the image, frame TBC cleans the signal. I've been so focused on trying to fix the vertical jitter (now I know that's what it's called), I wasn't grasping everything else. I thought that problem was in the signal. Had a conversation with a co-worker yesterday that led to my previous question. I spent some time searching through the forum and found some more explicit explanations of the difference between them, as well as some discussion about vertical jitter, and it finally clicked for me. Thanks for your help.
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datavideo tbc-5000, signal loss, time base corrector, vhs capture

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