SECAM-L color and sync audio/video issues?

[qcalv]

Hello,

in another post Best workflow for SECAM-L digitalization? I started almost two years ago my project. Still not working properly. First I had issues with a JVC HR-S9600-MS not playing linear audio on old tapes. Now after long search I finally got another JVC desk which is able to handle SECAM-L from France and seems to work properly.

So here is my gear now:
No TBC (out of my budget)
SVHS deck JVC HR-S8500-MS (bought in france)
VHS deck Samsung SV-125FK (used 2 years ago for first digitalization trials)
DVD recorder PANASONIC DMR-ES15 (bought in germany)
Laptop (OS Windows 7 Pro SP1 64 bits, SSD 1TB, CPU Intel i5-3230M CPU @ 2.6 Ghz, RAM 16GB Dual-Channel DDR3 @ 798MHz, MOTHERBOARD Lenovo 2355CTO)
VirtualDub 1.10.4 32bit
HuffYUV

I tried many workflows:

WF1 (previously)
Samsung SV125FK (SECAM-L) [SCART]
Pinnacle USB-500 [USB]
Laptop VirtualDub 1.10.4 32bit (SECAM-L)
Local SSD

WF2 (previously)
Samsung SV125FK (SECAM-L) [SCART]
Pioneer DVR 320-S (SECAM to PAL) [SVideo + Composite Red/White]
Pinnacle USB-500 [USB]
Laptop VirtualDub 1.10.4 32bit (PAL-B)
Local SSD

WF3 (now)
JVC HR-S8500-MS (SECAM-L to "DIRECT=SECAM-L") [SVideo + Composite Red/White]
Pinnacle USB-500 [USB]
Laptop VirtualDub 1.10.4 32bit (SECAM-L)
Local SSD

WF4 (now)
JVC HR-S8500-MS (SECAM-L to PAL) [SVideo to DMR + Composite Red/White to USB-500 direct]
PANASONIC DMR-ES15 (PAL to PAL TBCish) [SVideo only to USB-500]
Pinnacle USB-500 [USB]
Laptop VirtualDub 1.10.4 32bit (PAL-B)
Local SSD

Now here are the issues I am facing.

1. The conversion SECAM to PAL then to use the TBCish DMR-ES15 does not work always.
Sometimes I can't get a color video in VirtualDub. It's kind of B&Wish (while heads are automatically aligning with stripes diagonal) then goes to B&W.
I have only two options in the JVC: either output DIRECT (which would be SECAM) or PAL.
Using PAL leads to B&W via the DMR or even if I go direct without it.
Sometimes it works, and then at some point it does not anymore.

The tape I use had definitely some signal stability issue, eg. when I used WF2 I did get some pinking issue (I also wrote a post about it but did not get any answer there, what is it about).
Is this pinking? Can it be solved in VCR or in Avisynth?
I have the feeling that the SECAM signal is not really good anymore and thus conversion does not work, but I do not know if it "technically" make sense to say that.
Especially yesterday I managed to have 3h+ without any issue in color and then suddenly it switched to B&W.
The day before impossible to get color properly with this conversion to PAL.
I saw the image during play changing from color to B&W going with stripes of pink.
I had to stop the JVC desk, restart it, go into the menu play with the settings a bit and I finally got the color again.
But sometimes it did not work at all.

Any idea what's going on?
Any relation to BEST or Digital 3R setting (set to A=OFF)?

2. I do not get a stable frame rate at 25 fps during capture (see screenshot).
I used WF1 two years ago with the same laptop and I did not change anything apart from raising amount of RAM and updating SSD from 500 GB to 1TB. No windows update or such thing. I had the same issue in the past, but it was linked to the use of an external SSD. I solved it by using the local SSD. However now no matter what I try it is always changing frame rate after 1min or so and then I get soon audio out of sync. I tried all possible settings in VirtualDub without success.

And then yesterday, I retried WF4 and it finally got working. I have no idea why since I did not change anything special in my laptop...
The only thing I mention which is different is that if I tries to change too often the USB-500 parameters in VirtualDub, at some point pretty soon it gives me an error "could not start capture". The only way is to switch USB port or restart computers. The error in the log is: CapDShow: Unable to transition filter graph to run state: hr = 8007001f ()
Any further ideas what could still go wrong would be helpfull.

There is so many options/possibilities to put this workflow that I get lost what is the most probable source of error.
Right now I would be happy if I get for certain decent color image and sync audio/video using JVC deck.
Right now it seems more to be luck and I have to cross fingers while I capture 1h by 1h.

Thanks for any direction where/how to look for the error source in a methodically way, and which things are irrelevant for the issue (eg. composite versus S-Video output?).

PS: I put some screenshots of what I think might be relevant.

fran

[latreche34]

If the tape is physically bad you do not use B.E.S.T, It works on non damaged, non worn tapes, It's a calibration process and you don't calibrate on bad tapes or else you will have a biased reading, this is why on rental tapes it is recommended to turn the feature off.

Capture native SECAM, don't convert just because you want to use a DVD recorder, it doesn't work all the time, If you are having frame stability issues this is the time where a frame TBC cannot be replaced by a DVD recorder.

[qcalv]

Hi latreche,
yes, I tested this anyway to see if it changes something. It does not.
Actually, I moved now to the next tape. Which in the past did not show issues to play in SECAM with the Samsung Deck. I managed to capture without any issue in color with the DVD passthrough. However, as soon as I rewind a bit, it lost the color. I tried everything since then to get it back, not possible. Without the passthrough it works though but then I get stuck with my sync issue. So either I get B&W or I get audio desynchronization...
Interestingly sometimes I see some stripes (see attachment). Could it be the dynamic drum system being damaged? When I make pause, the image is well stable (but in B&W of course when it does not work or in color if it works for the conversion).

[themaster1]

Not a dynamic drum issue, the DD is used during pause and when you fast forward or rewind during that pause to get the clearest pictures.

I deal with Secam-L got plenty of vcr's i always get color.I concur for the B.E.S.T feature of JVC's don't use it for overused tapes.
By the way i made a post about it, i did plenty of tests (with like 5-6 vcrs) my jvc HR-S7700MS (or the 8600MS) is nothing special for secam tapes.
The best vcr i have that make minimal "pink/red" bar on the sides is a Toshiba V733EF (Pro drum series)

I did try the transcoding feature secam->pal of the 8600 it worked ok for standard home recordings, not that well for macrovision protected tapes (horizontal color stripes may appear).

Have you tried without the Panasonic in the chain / direct to tv. Do you get consistant color.
Also you should try a composite cable and check your scart adapter for a possible losening (it happenned to me)

[qcalv]

Hi themaster,

thanks for your input.

Direct without the Panasonic is working for video BUT not for audio sync. I always got the issue No. 2 I wrote in my original post. I don't get it why suddenly on my config the USB500 does not correct sync anymore as it used to do in the past when I was capturing SECAM-L directly. Maybe I forgot what happened in detail 2 years ago but I am pretty sure I had no jitter shown in Virtual Dub and constant 25 fps even after 1h of capture.

I tried after I got this B&W issue again this afternoon to capture not via S-Video + composite audio but via SCART adapter and composite (I have actually 2 adapters). No matter what I did, it got the same result: still B&W. In the end, I connected back with S-Video and Crossbar and at some point without knowing WHY I got color again, so I capture quickly the rest of my VHS. It is maybe a wrong contact somewhere but then I guess rather inside the VHS deck and not outside. What pin would lead to that B&W?

Since I still have my other JVC HR-9600MS deck (which does not work playing NORM/Linear audio), I am thinking if I cannot use it as SECAM > PAL converter to see if it makes a difference. But that would be kind of crazy having 2 JVCs + 1 DVD in a row... I'm getting tired of this hobby .

Best,

fran

[qcalv]

I tried now to combine both JVCs I got in passthrough plus in the end the DMR-ES15. I managed to get some stable color and some audio/video sync.

If I do not use the DMR-ES15 there is no way I get 25 FPS stable. As I was trying and trying without it, I finally took out an older laptop and install a fresh Win7 SP1 plus the pinnacle drivers and tested with this config. I get the same result. so I do not believe the problem lies within the PC configuration... what else can it be? Why would a DMR-ES15 with PAL output would be the only way to get with VDUB no jitter shown on bottom of capture windows and a stable 25 fps?

In the end after capturing another VHS completely I wanted to double check image quality. I compared to previous capture I did 2 years ago with the Toshiba Deck which does not have any S-Video output and is just a basic one. I realize the newest capture was actually worse with kind of "blurry" effect. So I narrowed down to testing again the all chain and ended up putting only the JVC 8500MS with S-Video output into my Pinnacle USB-500. No TBC active, no BEST. Still I get a poor image blurry. See both images attached, go from one to the other and you'll see the stripes or grass being blurry. What is that? Is it only a playback issue with wrong setting in VLC like interlace? I tried few options but still do not get good results? I tried to activate/deactivate the digital TBC or BEST but still do not get better results. So now I am kind of frustrated why I would not get a better image than I had before with a standard Toshiba deck?!

1. Any idea what else I could do regarding the issue with audio desync? Would it help to use the DV firewire output from the USB-500 instead of the USB output?
2. Or shall I buy another capture external hardware?
3. What is the issue regarding the blurry effect of the JVC 8500MS? Is it something I can control via settings or cleaning head or something like that?

[themaster1]

audio desync= > a good external TBC

The "blurry effect" is the result of the AUTO setting most likely. I did notice the same thing on my 7700ms (did not happen with the 8600ms i recall) Just use the edit setting to make the sharpest copy

[qcalv]

What do you mean AUTO or EDIT? In what submenu?
I do not think this has anything to do with TBC to be honest.
2 years ago I capture all my VHS with the Toshiba and I never had any unstable FPS issue. The only time I had this is when I plugged external SSD and capture on it, which I do not do right now.
VirtualDub is not showing drop frames, just this jitter on bottom status and changing the 25 FPS to 24.99 FPS whatever starting after 1min or so. And I see so many posts about it, having as final solution using AmarecTV but it does not work for pinnacle USB-500 as far as I try. It never starts the graph and report an error.

[themaster1]

The picture mode : auto, edit, shap+/-
Stay on edit mode
For your variable frame rate. I don't know precisely, i've always captured on standard internal sata 3.5 inch/7200 rpm drives. Sometimes on external USB ( not a fan i don't recommand).
I also optimize my drives/ partitions for large videos files> 16K cluster size

Try Virtualvcr (old app i still use on Win7)

[qcalv]

Virtualvcr does not work with Pinnacle USB-500.
The setting you mention I do not have it on the JVC.
That's for other model.

[themaster1]

Edit a.k.a "copie" in french, double check please
AUTO, SHARP +/- >> Never use that, i hope i'm clear
And if you disable the B.E.S.T you'll have the Norm (Normal) mode available which is preferable imo

Pinnacle is notorious for "locking" its drivers with third party softwares, i'm not surprised. I guess you're stuck with the pinnacle app unless you find alternative drivers.

Apparently people report that AM Capture can work and VirtualdubMOD with a similar card (it's unclear how they managed that though)

source: Here

[hodgey]

Did you try to output SECAM from the JVC and let the Panasonic handle the input as SECAM instead of going through the converter inside the VCR?

[qcalv]

Hi hodgey,

yes, I tried that actually few times. I tried so many combos... But yesterday evening, as I was again restarting playing with the different combos, to my huge surprise, it worked on one tape: color was there. I was like "am I stupid...did I miss something in all combos I tried"? Then after finalizing the acquisition, I moved to another tape which showed in the past pink frame issue with standard deck. And then it did not work. No matter what I tried, the signal getting out of the DMR-ES15 is B&W. I did buy two years ago another DVDR from Pioneer (DVR-320). And to my huge surprise, the color was back. I did not try it until now. The only drawback is the contrast/brightness/gamma higher so everything is very bright.

So conclusion is:

I can only make acquisition if I have DMR or DVR DVDR in the loop, otherwise I have sync audio issue (jitter info in VirtualDub, no drop/inserted frames).

1. JVC 8500MS > SECAM > DMR-ES15: works on certain tapes, I get color
2. JVC 8500MS > SECAM>PAL > DVR-320: works on "pinked frames" tape, I get color but brightness very high
3. JVC 8500MS > SECAM > DVR-320: still works but actually the picture quality is less better than 2., because the JVC seems able to correct some blue noise on left side of the video
4. All other solutions integrating in the loop my other JVC 9600MS (with broken linear audio) did not bring anything substantially better.

Overall I'm puzzled what's going on with these "pinked frames" tapes.
Even putting two JVCs, and trying to convert from SECAM to PAL in both of them (not at the same time), did not manage to get a color video getting out from the DMR-ES15. Only if I put the DVR-320 but again brightness sucks a bit. But that's the best I can have as for today and I am happy I do not have any more "pinked frames" coming it randomly as I had when I was using a standard deck from Samsung and not JVC.

[qcalv]

Hi themaster1,

I attached my menu settings. COPIE is set to A=Arret=Off. I can choose between M=Marche=On or Off. What shall I use?
Auto, Sharp, +/-, no not sure what you mean, you mean head alignement buttons on remote? I marked them and attached the picture. Is what you mean?
Best I put it on OFF (=A).

I can give a try with your last proposal and tools.
I tried yesterday to create a graph in GraphStudioNext but I did not get how to change resolution (by default, smaller than 720x576) and did not get either to get proper sync audio/video when AVI muxing to an AVI. So for that trial I dropped the case. Seems to me too complicated and some search in Google did not give me any match people doing that so much.

I tried to look for some AVI TV Wonder capture cards and such, but I do not find anything right now.
Even when I look at this from Hauppgage, they do not write anything regarding SECAM.
Amazon has one to sell, they write somehow SECAM but I am really not sure if it's not just bullshit.
https://www.hauppauge.de/site/produc...html#uberblick

Would it help for the video/audio sync issue using another capture box?
Would it help to try to find a USB-710 from pinnacle?
Or the problem lies elsewhere?

I mean in the end, I would prefer to not put so much things into the acquisition chain and keep SECAM > CAPTURE and that's it.

[themaster1]

copie (edit)= marche (on) like i advised you for the third time now
For your A/V sync issue sometimes the sync is better using a sound card directly (hooking up the line-in input), though far from perfect given the lack of TBC in most cases.

Secam is as nasty as can be, i got a retail movie (The Big Blue) that only plays in black and white in every player i tried, only god knows why.

The kind of thing you lack in your A/D chain imo https://www.leboncoin.fr/photo_audio...2458694441.htm

[qcalv]

Ok, got it now . Thanks. Just made a compare, and indeed COPIE=M(Marche) brings some very light improvment and remove some of the fuzzyness/bluriness on the capture.

Yeah, well now by buying and buying various DVDR and JVCs, probably would have been better to buy a TBC at first for 400€.
I never tried until now the MIC-in, but maybe I will thanks. I thought the lack would be even worse by mixing up hardware, especially not knowing what the pinnacle is doing with the audio/video stream. And since the A/D chain works so far OK with the DVDR, I kept it like this.

[qcalv]

Themaster1, one more question. I unplugged from the Pinnacle USB-500 completely the audio. Still in VirtualDub I get after less a minute the same "display" of jitter and lower frame rate what leads to unsync A/V if I would have plugged audio. Why? That does not make any sense to me. In this trial, I have JVC outputing SECAM direct. Does it have to do with my VirtualDub Timing settings? I attached them. Is the box not getting the frame at the right point of time when I capture in SECAM no matter if I have audio stream?

[themaster1]

Something i recall using my older card now: On the audio side it was 32 khz and when i did use 44khz instead of 32khz i'd get A/V desync, 32 khz was just fine. Food for thought. Are you sure yours is 44khz ?

Also make sure to capture on another drive (physical, not partition) than your Windows OS and minimum 7200 rpm (tours/min)

Check all of that

[qcalv]

Would have been a good solution, but does not work .
I tried changing the setting in VirtualDub for the raw audio format to PCM 32kHz, or 44 kHz or 48 kHz.
Give the same result for all. After ~40s I get the jitter rising and the FPS going lower than 25fps sharp.
I tried in SECAM=DIRECT and PAL (coming out from the JVC).

I have a laptop so only 1 physical drive. But it's a SSD and I have absolutely no issue when I use the DVDR in the chain, so I do not think the drive has anything to do with it. It can handle such writing speeds.

But thanks anyway for the info.

Where do I know what Audio sampling I should use? Is it defined by the pinnacle USB-500 box?