Panasonic ES10: s-video vs component output?

[johnEtna]

Once I'll have my ES10, I'll need to connect it to my capture card.
Do you suggest using the ES10 S-video output or the ES10 component output?

Thank you!

[aramkolt]

I haven't seen too many people try to capture in component - probably because a lot of capture cards to not support component. What capture card are you using?

[johnEtna]

I have a Blackmagic Intensity Pro (not 4k)

[qwertz73]

S-VIDEO output is preferable; YUV output darkens the image, and should be corrected in the input levels option. If the signal is very poor, or if you fast-forward too long, everything becomes dark (luminosity, contrast) and unwatchable. In this case, disconnect the capture and restart your VTR and Panasonic DMR ES-10.

Since I bought two ATI 600 USB, I only use the Blackmagic Intensity for HD captures in HDMI

See comparison in attached file.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnEtna

Once I'll have my ES10, I'll need to connect it to my capture card.
Do you suggest using the ES10 S-video output or the ES10 component output?
Thank you!

Always s-video, never component.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

I haven't seen too many people try to capture in component - probably because a lot of capture cards to not support component. What capture card are you using?

No, the reason is because the native tape data is Y/C (aka s-video, separated video, which keeps Y and Cr/Cb separate). Component is essentially na RGB, even if YUV, and it requires processing to separate Cr and Cb. This processing is generally craptastic, often processing Y as well, and lowers image quality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwertz73

S-VIDEO output is preferable; YUV output darkens the image, and should be corrected in the input levels option. If the signal is very poor, or if you fast-forward too long, everything becomes dark (luminosity, contrast) and unwatchable. In this case, disconnect the capture and restart your VTR and Panasonic DMR ES-10.
Since I bought two ATI 600 USB, I only use the Blackmagic Intensity for HD captures in HDMI

The processing always causes various issues, and Panasonic has never had good luma control on any DVD recorder. The more it does, the more it just screws up quality. The ES10 is not, and never was, any sort of "TBC replacement", because it molests the signal and image quality. It contains a strong+crippled line TBC, and non-TBC frame sync, and is best used for anti-tearing only, where the added artifacts are still better than a with-tearing video usin something else.

Using a quality ATI 600 USB is vastly better than the known-flawed Blackmagic gear.

[johnEtna]

Thank you for your advices, and thank you qwertz73 for your video samples, they are very useful to understand the problem. So I'll use the S-video cable only.
How can I adjust the video quality and colors after using a Panasonic DMR ES-10?

[hodgey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

No, the reason is because the native tape data is Y/C (aka s-video, separated video, which keeps Y and Cr/Cb separate). Component is essentially na RGB, even if YUV, and it requires processing to separate Cr and Cb. This processing is generally craptastic, often processing Y as well, and lowers image quality.

The Dvd-recorder, and any TBC whether internal and external (other than possibly the ones operating on composite open reel stuff) are going to demodulate the color part of the signal into Cr/Cb as part of the process, and if outputting composite or s-video, re-modulate the resulting chroma again to the C part of Y/C or onto the combined composite signal. You can't correct the jitter of the signal without doing that. If you look at the schematics of VCRs where the TBC unit on e.g the NV-FS200 or AG1970 where it's not all integrated in one chip you can see it quite clearly. Same with the output from the video decoder ICs on e.g the TBC-1000, they output REC 601 component video.

That's of course not to say that there can be other design flaws with the component output on the ES10 for whatever reason - I've not really tried it on mine (I think it might be broken on it) so can't comment on that. The bandwidth from VHS input is too low for there to be any difference between s-video and component out anyhow other than maybe on the sharp transition between the 8 px border and image it's not like there is a whole lot of theoretical advantage of using component out over s-video anyhow. (On later non-US models using HDMI has the advantage of avoiding the 8 px black borders and the extra ad->da conversion but afaik there is only like one US model that has both HDMI and chipset with good stabilization capability and on that one you are forced to use progressive scan and re-interlace afterwards so it's really only an option for non-US models).

[latreche34]

If I was in the OP shoes, I'll try all possible outputs, S-Video, component and HDMI if available and post samples here and let the community give their opinions, You're not going to get an accurate advice based on speculation, Plus the more you experiment the better you understand the hardware and make your final decision on what to use based on results not opinion.

[qwertz73]

A few days ago, I came across a VHS with instability mainly at the top of the image and wobbly chroma.

Although my Panasonic NV-FS200, JVC HR-S9600 and JVC HR-S7600 partially solved the problem with their internal TBC, there were still recurring frame jumps.

The Panasonic DMR-ES10 solved the problem well, but with a slight increase in brightness and color.

Attached video

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

The Dvd-recorder, and any TBC whether internal and external (other than possibly the ones operating on composite open reel stuff) are going to demodulate the color part of the signal into Cr/Cb as part of the process, and if outputting composite or s-video, re-modulate the resulting chroma again to the C part of Y/C or onto the combined composite signal. You can't correct the jitter of the signal without doing that. If you look at the schematics of VCRs where the TBC unit on e.g the NV-FS200 or AG1970 where it's not all integrated in one chip you can see it quite clearly. Same with the output from the video decoder ICs on e.g the TBC-1000, they output REC 601 component video.

It's more about the order of operations, and exact processing performed to create the outputs.

For almost all NTSC, and most PAL from samples I've seen, then component is simply degraded compared to the Y/C handling. It shouldn't be that way, but often is. I assume cheap Chinese components are to blame, and/or Panasonic has always sucked at luma and chroma handling (first DVD recorder to the last). For whatever reason, Y/C output from DVD recorders is just superior to component and HDMI both. With some PAL and NTSC differences, but it's still very model based.

I actually have an RCA recorder (Zoran based) with really nice component output. So it can happen. But it's not something that would at all be useful for tape conversion, just analog tv/cable recording.

EDIT: For others reading (hodgey knows this, others probably do not), I need add that many "combo" units internally crush to composite, so the "s-video" output is lossy converted junk. In that case, all the output look comparable, all lousy.

[mkash3]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

It's more about the order of operations, and exact processing performed to create the outputs.

For almost all NTSC, and most PAL from samples I've seen, then component is simply degraded compared to the Y/C handling. It shouldn't be that way, but often is. I assume cheap Chinese components are to blame, and/or Panasonic has always sucked at luma and chroma handling (first DVD recorder to the last). For whatever reason, Y/C output from DVD recorders is just superior to component and HDMI both. With some PAL and NTSC differences, but it's still very model based.

I actually have an RCA recorder (Zoran based) with really nice component output. So it can happen. But it's not something that would at all be useful for tape conversion, just analog tv/cable recording.

LS,

Are you familiar with the quality of the component outputs on JVC's D-VHS decks? Something like the HM-DH40000U? I know s-video is the desired choice but was curious if the quality of JVC's processing is closer to "really nice" when it came to capturing VHS over component.

[latreche34]

Depends on how video processing is handled after the internal line TBC chip of the HM-DH4k, Is the signal sent equally to YC and YPbPr for individual processing like in a DVD recorder or it prioritize YC and process a pseudo YPbPr from the YC?

[lordsmurf]

I don't know about the D-VHS units directly, but the similar DR-M LSI recorders all had component output, and it always seemed fuzzy to me. I only used it to monitor recordings on a TV.

[johnEtna]

Now I have my ES10, so in the next days I'm going to do some tests, but I'd like to know your opinion about this mod.

https://gleitz-info.translate.goog/f...=no#post462405

I'm confident I'll be able to do it, I asked some help and it seems feasible to do.