Capturing using Blackmagic Mini Recorder PCIe card?

[Davis]

I'm used to being able to adjust audio and video levels when capturing using a scope since I currently use an old Newtek VT5 system for capture and editing. I use an Aja FS1 for TBC and currently use the component out for capture. It has SDI out, but my VT5 does not have the hardware to capture using SDI. I can learn to use Davinci Resolve for the editing, but I'm wondering about capturing. I have not been able to find out if Davinci will let you see the video and make adjustments using a scope and adjust audio levels as you capture. Typically I don't make a lot of live adjustments during capture, but I do set the video and audio levels to start. If Davinci will not allow that, what software does anyone else using the Blackmagic Mini Recorder card use and does it have that feature? If I could capture from the SDI out of the TBC, then I only go from analog to digital one time.

Thanks,
Marty

[latreche34]

BM uses MediaExpress for SDI ingest, Alternatively you can use vdub, The files produced are lossless AVI 4:2:2 work on any NLE software.

[aramkolt]

Most Blackmagic cards I don't think allow you to see scope stuff in real time. The software that would allow you to use it on the products that do support it I believe is called "Ultrascope." I believe scopebox software also can work, but it's pretty pricy. There are quite a few "after the fact" scopes that you could just capture a short segment of particularly bright video and try to work off of that. Your other option would be to get a hardware scope that will allow you to adjust/see the input levels in real time. That's probably the route I would go is either something from the Videotek VTM series or something from the tektronix WVR series. Those will require a separate VGA display to actually see the scope part, but won't tie up a computer and will let you see a waveform monitor, vectorscope, and the video itself. Depending on the model, it may also let you monitor audio levels as well.

[latreche34]

Lets clear few things here before giving wrong information, The OP doesn't seem to understand how SDI workflow works, so lets define it:
VCR -> analog cables -> Analog to SDI device (Procamp) -> SDI cable -> SDI/PCIe (or SDI/USB) interface -> PCIe socket/USB cable -> Computer running ingest software to HDD.

If you are using this workflow, the levels are adjusted inside the SDI to analog device where conversion from analog to digital happens, It will be too late to do it in the ingest software because at that point the signal is already digital.

Depends on what SDI device you use most of them have procamp and other parameters controls using the front panel, Some have additional means of controlling those parameters by a control interface app which will requires running an additional USB cable or an ethernet cable via a web interface.

In this case the Aja FS-1 is no exception, it has a fully functional front panel with a display, and it appears to have an ethernet connection on the back for this purpose as well.

[Davis]

Yes, the Aja FS1 does have an interface so you can use a browser and adjust brightness, contrast, hue, and saturation. I've also done quite a bit of reading and the internal conversion back to component analog in the FS1 should lose very little of the video data. After capturing it as component uncompressed and making any further adjustments and editing, rendering the timeline to AVI uncompressed there is no loss in that rendering.

Another option I have is to capture as SDI going into a Tricaster and live data is available on a scope. The only thing I don't like about that method is you can only capture as AVI SpeedHQ which is very good quality, but it's not uncompressed. The other capture method available would be MPEG2 I-frame which gives very good quality with reasonable file sizes also. I think the data rate they use is either 50 or 100Mbps which is really good quality.

Between the two options, quality wise I think it would be a toss-up. I'm not saying SDI would not be better, it's just dealing with VHS and 8mm tapes and not HD I think you're not going to see a difference.

The other way would be to use the Blackmagic card and just capture the video as is and then make any necessary adjustments that are allowed in the Davinci software to the video and audio levels.

So now it's just a decision I have to make.

Thanks,
Marty

[dpalomaki]

Keep in mind that lossless and uncompressed are not the same. Some compressed codecs may be lossless within the limits of the sample depth and rate. (Similar to .ZIP files.)

Be aware that some Analog-to-SDI converters will clamp the input to fall within the 0-100 (or 7.5-100) IRE range. Some analog sources, such as camcorders may output analog signal out side that range. I've seen live camcorder output and playback approaching 110 IRE. And some media players may have out of adjustment output stages resulting in too low or too high output. Thus it is advantageous to have proc amp capability ahead of the first A-D stage.

[Davis]

That's why I like the way I currently capture and edit with the Newtek VT5 software. I also see tapes where the levels are wrong all the time, such as black level and exceeding 100 IRE. I can set levels using the scope and then rewind the tape and start the capture.

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davis

The only thing I don't like about that method is you can only capture as AVI SpeedHQ which is very good quality, but it's not uncompressed. The other capture method available would be MPEG2 I-frame which gives very good quality with reasonable file sizes also. I think the data rate they use is either 50 or 100Mbps which is really good quality.
Marty

Get a different SDI interface, BM sells some nice PCIe interfaces, then use MediaExpress to save lossless AVI 4:2:2 @ either 10 or 8 bit, Clear your desk from ancient devices that require several analog-digital-analog conversions and go straight digital, And they work on any OS type or version up to the current ones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpalomaki

Be aware that some Analog-to-SDI converters will clamp the input to fall within the 0-100 (or 7.5-100) IRE range. Some analog sources, such as camcorders may output analog signal out side that range. I've seen live camcorder output and playback approaching 110 IRE. And some media players may have out of adjustment output stages resulting in too low or too high output. Thus it is advantageous to have proc amp capability ahead of the first A-D stage.

Not just analog to SDI devises, All capture devices have a limited gain at the input, consumer ones being slightly worse, This is why a TBC has to have a proc amp built in the ADC chip, If using a stand alone external TBC that is not equipped with a procamp control, an analog procamp right after the VCR and before the TBC is highly recommended, Once the TBC digitizes the signal, all gain levels are baked in, the capture device that comes after the external TBC can do little to nothing to help. This is one of the reasons I like the capture device to have procamp and TBC all in the same chip, more control over the signal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davis

That's why I like the way I currently capture and edit with the Newtek VT5 software. I also see tapes where the levels are wrong all the time, such as black level and exceeding 100 IRE. I can set levels using the scope and then rewind the tape and start the capture.

You're doing it the wrong way though, as I explained above, Once the FS1 digitizes the signal, it's already too late, Proc amp has to be done at the ADC chip or even before in the analog domain, However in the analog domain you need a good quality procamp, not any consumer toy. Some Sony semi=pro mixing consoles have good electronics on them and they can stabilize signal as well using a digital time base correction. Also Videonics makes a good model, I don't remember the number.

[Davis]

I may go ahead and order an SDI card from Blackmagic and try MediaExpress and then use Davinci, at least it's free and a robust program. For my MPEG encoding and authoring for DVD I use the TMPG products and I have been happy with using those. I still have lots of DVD requests.

Coming out of the FS1 as SDI means I only go A-D one time. After editing and rendering the timeline from lossless AVI to
lossless AVI to make the file for the MPEG encoder there would be no loss. And Davinci may have a very good MPEG encoder so I could make the MPEG inside of Davinci, but I have no idea. The TMPG does provide a lot of variables though that are nice. I haven't installed Davinci yet although I have downloaded it.

I'm having to finish a big project first and then I can try this. I have a brand new i9 computer waiting to try all of this on.
Be great to be able to do everything on one PC.

Marty

-- merged --

Out of curiosity, I would like to know what hardware/software you are using. You can private message if you prefer.

Thanks,
Marty

[latreche34]

I leave all the details in the videos' description on my YT channel, depends on the format I capture.

[dpalomaki]

Quote:

Some Sony semi=pro mixing consoles have good electronics on them and they can stabilize signal as well using a digital time base correction. Also Videonics makes a good model, I don't remember the number.

FYI: The Videonics mixers (from the 1990s0 were were the MX-1 and its successor, the MX-Pro. The MX-Pro featured 13.5 mHz, 10-bit 4:2:2 internal processing for s-video inputs. Because it can mix two inputs it includes a frame synchronizer and provides some TBC functionality, but still requires a reasonably good input signal. And while it can do some color correction (perhaps to match camcorders) it is not a substitute for a proc amp ahead of its inputs. There was a MXProDV model that came later as well but about that time NLEs started to dominate the trade so it was not commonly seen. I still use my MX-Pro occasionally.

An potential issue with Media Express is the codec selection, at least for the version shipped with the Intensity Pro series.

I believe that Videonics ceased to exist around 20 years or so, merged with FOCUS Enhancements FOCUS went Chapter 11 in 2008 and its assets were taken over by VITEC in 2010 and then split uop and sold off.

Products are found on eBay and other similar sites. Good luck if looking for some.

[latreche34]

Pretty much anything related to analog SD is gone with the winds, except for the chinese crap sold on Bezos portal and Temu or the eBay graveyard.

[Davis]

One more quick question for you. Do you control your TBC remotely to make adjustments like I would have to control the FS1? I do have a laptop that would work well for that and I'm not using it for anything else. I would still like to have a scope with SDI input to loop through so I can see the levels before it hits the capture card. Otherwise, you only have just the picture that shows in the MediaExpress software I think.

[latreche34]

I use an external monitor and I use web interface or USB app depends what device I'm using, BE75 uses a USB app, and the TBS-800 uses web portal via ethernet. I'm not too obsessed about histograms and scopes, I know when the levels are right by just using an external monitor.

[BW37]

latreche34: I’m still wondering exactly what model of BM SDI to USB3 you are using.

Thanks,
BW

[latreche34]

BM UltraStudio SDI, There is only one model, and I know BM website does not list discontinued models, but it's this model. See also this advert.

[BW37]

Thanks! I'd seen that model but hoped there were others. It seems Blackmagic has left USB3 behind

[latreche34]

They do currently sell two compact models now with USB-C thunderbolt protocol, One is called recorder, the other called monitor, Not sure what's the difference to be honest, If they come up with a USB-C USB protocol model I would consider getting one to test with as long as it is still backward compatible with SD SDI SMPTE 259M-C 270 Mbit/s.

Edit: Never mind I figured it out, the monitor has SDI output not input.

[Gary34]

Quote:

an analog procamp right after the VCR and before the TBC is highly recommended, Once the TBC digitizes the signal, all gain levels are baked in, the capture device that comes after the external TBC can do little to nothing to help.

I have read that a proc amp must come after the TBC or it will "bake in" timing issues (and/or cause further drop/etc type issues), and subsequent path TBCs will be limited in effectiveness.

[latreche34]

Not if it was part of the TBC process itself, You're talking about an analog procamp that is separate from an external TBC, Those have to be of a good quality not consumer toys as I've already mentioned or else you will have quality problems.

The proc amp you do in capture software assumes the signal is coming from the analog source (VCR, camcorder) into the capture card's ADC, If it's coming from an external TBC, the levels are already baked-in since the signal has been already converted to digital and back to analog. It can work to a certain extent but not like when you just sampled the analog signal into digital and apply the filters while still digital.