I'm in the slow process of upgrading my workflow. I already got burned by Ebay on my SVHS. I also had found a TBC but I think I faired a bit better this time around!
Here is my before/after example:
Warning: Clip is just from a recording of "Officer and Gentlemen" has a curse word playing so may not be safe for work or little one's ears
1st clip is
Symphonic VHS/DVD Combo > Composite > Roxio VHS to DVD Capture Card & Software
2nd clip is :
Symphonic VHS/DVD Combo > Composite > TBC > Composite > Roxio VHS to DVD Capture Card & Software
I'm in process of replacing all of this with quality, professional gear and software (and moving to S-Video vs. Composite...my combo player only supports S-Video on the DVD side!). But just wanted to show the comparison and improvement of just including the TBC.
I'm grateful for all the advice I've received so far! Happy Friday!
Besides dark picture that TBC hasn't provided any benefit whatsoever, Better without it.
That can't be ascertained with the data so far, and this is why:
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Originally Posted by rabbitfeet318
But just wanted to show the comparison and improvement of just including the TBC.
What, specifically, are you expecting the TBC to do for you here? Noting that it's probably a frame TBC, not a line TBC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbitfeet318
I already got burned by Ebay on my SVHS. I also had found a TBC but I think I faired a bit better this time around!
Which TBC brand, model is that?
And from where? Assuming eBay, what seller? (PM me, if needed, for this tidbit.)
Quote:
Warning: Clip is just from a recording of "Officer and Gentlemen" has a curse word playing so may not be safe for work or little one's ears
These days, such disclaimers are almost amusing. I can turn on the TV, and see commercials that are worse!
Quote:
1st clip is
Symphonic VHS/DVD Combo > Composite > Roxio VHS to DVD Capture Card & Software
2nd clip is :
Symphonic VHS/DVD Combo > Composite > TBC > Composite > Roxio VHS to DVD Capture Card & Software
That cheap no-name VCR, and that Easycap (Easycrap) card, are likely causing such massive damage that whatever the TBC does is futile. But that's why you're upgrading gear, of course.
I've never been able to cinform whether the CDM-820 had a TBC that worked in bypass mode (ie, NTSC>NTSC or PAL>PAL). Most converter boxes either lack TBCs entirely, or the TBC only engages on PAL<>NTSC formats conversion.
This is especially true of old Cypress gear, and the 820 has one of the 90s style housings. It's ancient.
I've only known 1 person with a unit, and I assume you bought yours from him. He claims it has bypass TBC, but I could never get verification. The same claim is often made of Tenlab units (on eBay, of course), and I've confirmed that none of them have bypass, thus no TBC is engaged without formats conversion.
So you may be seeing placebo effect here, with the darkening being a byproduct of processing separate from any time base correction.
Interesting! I will have to test with one of my videos that had a ton of tearing and see if we get a difference. Getting ready to take a trip tomorrow but hopefully will have time to test before we hit the road.
To add more, about the darkness, certain Cypress, both specific with-TBC and without-TBC converter models, have a value-altering profile. Not just luma/exposure (darkness, brightness), but chroma (saturation, tints). While all TBCs process (and non-TBCs do too), the processing quality can be determined by the quality of the unit -- which is why only certain units are suggested. Not just any random items from any random time period (ie, too many wrong 80s/90s TBCs are attempted, usually by people trying to avoid the fair market costs of the quality TBCs). Sometimes non-TBCs are bought by mistake, or even from false advertising.
That said, the tape is still a variable here. But knowing what I do about these old Cypress, and non-TBC converters, it's less likely the tape at fault here.
I actually wonder if false (false positive) anti-copy is being triggered somewhere. Because anti-copy is just an artficial/fake video errors, and natural/legit errors can appear the same (thus triggering the false positive). It's actually quiet common on these sort of nth gen monstrosity tapes.
If it's anything like the other cypress/avt TBCs they're mostly only useful when used together with a VCR with a built in TBC unit since those don't do much to correct for horizontal jitter. For pairing with a vcr without a built in tbc you are much better off using one of the dvd-recorder models with stabilization instead as those do deal with horizontal stabilization and tearing as well (which are also way cheaper).
My Video gear overview/test/repair/stuff yt channel http://youtu.be/cEyfegqQ9TU
If it's anything like the other cypress/avt TBCs they're mostly only useful when used together with a VCR with a built in TBC unit since those don't do much to correct for horizontal jitter. For pairing with a vcr without a built in tbc you are much better off using one of the dvd-recorder models with stabilization instead as those do deal with horizontal stabilization and tearing as well (which are also way cheaper).
I would agree, but with two glaring exceptions:
1. The DVD recorders don't remove errors, but instead swap errors. Screwing with the values is still a problem, especially luma/exposure damage on the Panasonics. The DVD recorders are best left for anti-tearing only, where the net result (quality gains + quality damage) is better video.
2. When you're only doing work for yourself, that nobody else will use or see, fine, screw it up as much as you want, or make it as quality as you want.
The ES10/15 type recorders are a minimally acceptable tool to create passable work, so that's overall middling quality. And often times, that can be fine. I've helped many people craft these sorts of budget setup, for specific tasks we discuss at the time.
But when you're
- doing work for others (clients, family, friends, etc),
- or work at organizations (the archives, at musuems or libraries, etc)
- or the footage may have future value (ie, your important young adult 20s/30s even 40s kids may need it for a documentary on their life story later in later years, because they have a bright future already)
... then do a good job, with good equipment, not just the cheapest or quickest. Middling quality is not often acceptable in those scenarios.
On that last reason, yes, seriously, I've dealt with politician parents, young music/move star parents, etc. People that haven't hit "big time" yet, but they are already successful at what they're doing on small/medium scale. It was interesting to see those kids, on video, learn their first music instruments, or have their first middle school debates, and know where they are 10/20+ years later. Someday that could become widely-seen archive footage -- and I'm the one who archived it, in the best possible quality.
I was trying to figure out whether I wanted to capture with or without a line TBC on my newer tapes because with a Pannasonic 1989p ag the noise reduction is separate from the TBC.
The problem with turning off the TBC in the 1980 is that it changes the saturation. The Pannasonics are calibrated to the TBC being on. The image looks a little brighter too but they measure about the same on a histogram. The oversaturation makes camera flicker stand out way more and it worsens color bleeding. I could turn down my saturation on my proc amp but I may not. It looks good with the TBC on. I might be worrying about something I don't really need to. At first I thought well this looks better without the TBC because its brighter and more colorful and now I am thinking, this could cause problems later in editing.
I am really liking AVSPmod right now but I am going to do most everything in Hybrid later. I don't want to ignore any software you guys recommend.
Well I had seen deter and you talking here https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...-Service/page4. At the top of page 4 you guys talk about there being a color difference between when the TBC is on and off and that it should be calibrated to the TBC being on.
I am just going to leave the TBC on. It’s probably easier on the caps then switching it on and off.
I am just not sure how big the color difference is supposed to be before it indicates a problem.
Well I had seen deter and you talking here https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...-Service/page4. At the top of page 4 you guys talk about there being a color difference between when the TBC is on and off and that it should be calibrated to the TBC being on.
Nope. What I refer to there is color changes regardless of TBC on/off. I think TGrant knows how to calibrate, and Deter does not. But the bigger problem is the location of those calibration pots is insde the pretzel of boards, thus essentially impossible with out a special bench and tools.
While it is true that TBCs processing can add noise/changes (can, not will), it's not that stark here, in terms of color shift, when caps are all fine. It's nuanced at most.
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I am just going to leave the TBC on.
And that's why you bought the deck.
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It’s probably easier on the caps then switching it on and off.
I don't think that makes any difference here.
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I am just not sure how big the color difference is supposed to be before it indicates a problem.
I need to see samples of it. New thread, repair forum.
But in general, the answer is "oh, you'll know!"
I don't think you're there yet, based on the image I see here --- though not the greatest for testing, too much red.
I actually most often script in Avisynth, using AvsPmod, and then drop the .avs file into Hybrid.
Why do you do that? Is it just because of the preview of cropping in hybrid?
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I don't think you're there yet, based on the image I see here --- though not the greatest for testing, too much red.
That’s good to hear. I chose those scenes because I noticed those issues more during those scenes. Maybe that was because of the red. I’ll submit another thread and use a more neutral colored sample.
Why do you do that? Is it just because of the preview of cropping in hybrid?
Hybrid has its own internal order for scripts. You can change it, but then it's more work than just manually scripting, and ordering that script as you need/want. And yes, because it also gives easier/immediate view of cropping and masking. I don't use Hybrid for complex scripting, because script order matters.
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That’s good to hear. I chose those scenes because I noticed those issues more during those scenes. Maybe that was because of the red. I’ll submit another thread and use a more neutral colored sample.
You need darks/black to discount luma (not actually saturation), then blue, green, red, yellow. For this sort of test, animation is good, but you still want live action.
