Proc amp recomendation?

[ahmed12h]

Hello guys

I am looking for Procamp that I can put it before the A/D so I can adjust YUV signal and IRE ,
any recommendation for good device

[lordsmurf]

PAL or NTSC?

[ahmed12h]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

PAL or NTSC?

I need both .
is there any device work with two color system . if not I need separately

[aramkolt]

Many TBCs have proc amps built-in, though many TBCs will not handle both NTSC and PAL. What will your full capture chain be? If you are going straight from your video source to your capture card, you will probably get similar results with the settings within your capture card's proc-amp settings. Some TBCs are kind of odd in that they can clip levels anyway if incoming signals are too hot (even if the TBC has proc amp features), but that's fairly uncommon. Main one I know that's talked about doing that is the DPS475/575 if IRE is over 110 as it enters the device, but I haven't tested that myself yet.

Other question is whether you are using s-video or composite. There are far fewer non-TBC proc amps that have S-Video in/out.

Vidicraft makes some ok Proc Amps from what I've read, but they are composite-only as far as I know, and probably support only NTSC or PAL (not both).

Someone else can correct me, but the main thing you usually want a proc amp for during capture is to adjust the luma (bright/dark) specifically. Color can be adjusted in post as I don't think I've seen chroma actually ever really "clip" per se to the point where there'd be data loss from that at the time of capture. Exception would be if you don't want to do any post processing color correction - Example: burning directly to DVD for distribution.

Never heard of anyone doing this, but If the goal is only to adjust the luma (Y) in an S-Video (YC) signal - I don't know why you couldn't just route the luma wire as thought it was composite through a composite-only proc amp and then only adjust brights/darks. Chroma wire would just skip the proc amp altogether and go on to your capture card or TBC unchanged.

[ahmed12h]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

Many TBCs have proc amps built-in, though many TBCs will not handle both NTSC and PAL. What will your full capture chain be? If you are going straight from your video source to your capture card, you will probably get similar results with the settings within your capture card's proc-amp settings. Some TBCs are kind of odd in that they can clip levels anyway if incoming signals are too hot (even if the TBC has proc amp features), but that's fairly uncommon. Main one I know that's talked about doing that is the DPS475/575 if IRE is over 110 as it enters the device, but I haven't tested that myself yet.

Other question is whether you are using s-video or composite. There are far fewer non-TBC proc amps that have S-Video in/out.

Vidicraft makes some ok Proc Amps from what I've read, but they are composite-only as far as I know, and probably support only NTSC or PAL (not both).

Someone else can correct me, but the main thing you usually want a proc amp for during capture is to adjust the luma (bright/dark) specifically. Color can be adjusted in post as I don't think I've seen chroma actually ever really "clip" per se to the point where there'd be data loss from that at the time of capture. Exception would be if you don't want to do any post processing color correction - Example: burning directly to DVD for distribution.

Never heard of anyone doing this, but If the goal is only to adjust the luma (Y) in an S-Video (YC) signal - I don't know why you couldn't just route the luma wire as thought it was composite through a composite-only proc amp and then only adjust brights/darks. Chroma wire would just skip the proc amp altogether and go on to your capture card or TBC unchanged.

thanks for ur reply,
I need procamp actually to adjust IRE, after I finish from digitizations there is a report generated with video. and most of it give error in Sat and Hue and it must be adjusted to meet expectation.
my work flow will be like this :
VCR-------TBC Procamp-----capture card ( pcie )
so i need to adjust analog signal before converted to digital.
and as I know Procamp can adjust Luma ( brightness ) chroma ( sat and hue )

my source is composite

and the other issue , I have drop frame while capturing, this drop frame will effect on video. So when I used TBC this issue solved. So that why I need TBC with Procamp. and I really need for PAL and good one so the signal being processed would not loss any quality.

[Gary34]

Quote:

Someone else can correct me, but the main thing you usually want a proc amp for during capture is to adjust the luma (bright/dark) specifically. Color can be adjusted in post as I don't think I've seen chroma actually ever really "clip" per se to the point where there'd be data loss from that at the time of capture. Exception would be if you don't want to do any post processing color correction - Example: burning directly to DVD for distribution.

I am wondering about the difference between editing tint(hue) in hardware vs. software. I have been editing my tint in hardware first by looking at skin tones until I get the green out and at the same time looking at reds so they look right. I try to find a balance there. I took the saturation down a little to reduce color bleeding.

My sharpness slider is over my R. I don’t think I am going to software sharpen at all. I don’t like the look of it. Plus after I sharpen in hardware I get no increase in sharpness by using software. It just adds a bunch of noise. Software sharpening has more negatives.

Quote:

Color can be adjusted in post as I don't think I've seen chroma actually ever really "clip" per se to the point where there'd be data loss from that at the time of capture.

Chroma can clip. It can be too saturated on your vectroscope and cause clipping but my videos I could tell were a little over saturated and they weren’t even close to clipping. Clipping in chroma is probably a waste of time to worry about.

You can’t clip with tint because tint just rotates the color tint/hue. You can see all this on the histogram(levels) function in Avisynth.

[traal]

I have the Elite Video BVP-4 (non-plus) which I bought non-working from eBay and replaced the fuse and bought a power supply with the correct polarity to get it working again. But I don't use it. Instead, I make a "flat" capture with contrast turned down and brightness increased to avoid crushing any shadows, then I adjust luma my liking in Virtualdub/Avisynth after capture.

For hue and saturation, I use the vectorscope in Virtualdub to check, and i adjust them in Avisynth.

My reds often appear to clip in the histogram, but on closer inspection, it usually seems to be a false positive.

I think a proc amp would be useful when recording directly to DVD but that's not my workflow.

[Gary34]

Quote:

I have the Elite Video BVP-4 (non-plus) which I bought non-working from eBay and replaced the fuse and bought a power supply with the correct polarity to get it working again. But I don't use it.

Different members are going to have different experiences with proc amps because we have different proc amps. I’ve heard that the BVP-4s are really strong and they can mess with the signal. That makes sense since they are a separate device. A lot of people don’t use them unless they really need to. The AVT-8710s have a weak pro amp. The TBC 3000s have a stronger full proc amp. The proc amp on those matured from 1st to 4th generation then there is mine that is a 5th genaration and it’s unknown. Even LS hasn’t tested one. Datavideo stuff in general has its own issues right now though.

Your really important stuff is a Good recommended refurbished VCR and a TBC anyways. That’s usually what most people focus on first.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahmed12h

I need both .
is there any device work with two color system . if not I need separately

This can get complicated.

Most do not do both PAL and NTSC, no. Either some items that can "also do" the other system are terrible at it (ie, certain TBC-3000 versions hate PAL). But some items can do both, if other items in the workflow allow for it.

By that, I mean both line and frame TBC must be in place. You cannot get a low-end multisystem VHS VCR that "does both" as you mentioned to me elsewhere. You cannot mix quality gear with crap, it never works. Either use all quality gear, or just give up and make terrible conversions that nobody wants to watch.

Sometimes I just have to be blunt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

you will probably get similar results with the settings within your capture card's proc-amp settings.

No. That is post-digitize correction, and that can be done in VirtualDub, Premiere, Da Vinci, whatever.

Quote:

Vidicraft makes some ok Proc Amps from what I've read, but they are composite-only as far as I know, and probably support only NTSC or PAL (not both).

No PAL, only NTSC, and one of the rarer III models have s-video. But Vidicraft is still inferior to the later SignVideo and Studio1, which is all from the same company (changed names 3 times since 80s, same ownership).

Quote:

Color can be adjusted in post

Nope, not always. Sometimes stacking proc amps is even needed, especially if you have both YUV and RGB types (as I do, and have used for complex restorations).

Quote:

as I don't think I've seen chroma actually ever really "clip" per se

Yes and no. At overexposure values, the luma bleeds to chroma post-digitize, so it has to be corrected in the analog domain pre-digitize/capture.

Quote:

Never heard of anyone doing this,

Advanced restoration, or digital video artists (glitch, etc), do wild things at times, to reach the needed results.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahmed12h

my work flow will be like this :
VCR-------TBC Procamp-----capture card ( pcie )

I would suggest VCR > TBC > proc amp > capture card
I doubt integrated TBC + proc amp will serve you well in your exist use case --- with a very specific Cypress exception. There's always exceptions! And I actually know where to get that unit, but he wants a high cost for it. Then I need to refurb it, because it's not usable as-is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

I am wondering about the difference between editing tint(hue) in hardware vs. software. I have been editing my tint in hardware first by looking at skin tones until I get the green out and at the same time looking at reds so they look right. I try to find a balance there. I took the saturation down a little to reduce color bleeding.

That's fine.

Quote:

My sharpness slider is over my R.

No, way too high! 0/unity (middle notch) is already too sharp by default, pushing right really adds noise very fast. I occasionally need to do it, but never at all times

Quote:

Software sharpening has more negatives.

Not the advanced Avisynth scripts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traal

I have the Elite Video BVP-4 (non-plus)
But I don't use it.

It's often too powerful. It's great for advanced restorations, but you can ruin a simple transfer. It's not a clean passthrough, so it's best saved for net improvements (like ES10/15 and tearing).

Quote:

often appear to clip in the histogram, but on closer inspection, it usually seems to be a false positive.

Scopes/meters/graphs/grams help, but eyes should always be the ultimate decider. I think lossless capturing has gotten a wee too puritanical in the past decade. Even I don't do some of that stuff, it gets silly and dogmatic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

Different members are going to have different experiences with proc amps because we have different proc amps. I’ve heard that the BVP-4s are really strong and they can mess with the signal. That makes sense since they are a separate device. A lot of people don’t use them unless they really need to. The AVT-8710s have a weak pro amp. The TBC 3000s have a stronger full proc amp. The proc amp on those matured from 1st to 4th generation then there is mine that is a 5th genaration and it’s unknown. Even LS hasn’t tested one. Datavideo stuff in general has its own issues right now though.
Your really important stuff is a Good recommended refurbished VCR and a TBC anyways. That’s usually what most people focus on first.

All correct.

[aramkolt]

If you are doing composite to composite, you might find that the Brighteye BE5 would be a good compromise here. It accepts both PAL and NTSC, has a proc amp that is controllable with free software (both Mac and PC compatible), and uses 12 bit DAC/ADCs. They can typically be found on ebay for much less than a typical recommended TBC.

I'm not sure if LS has tried one, though my guess is that it's not on the recommended because it doesn't handle S-Video which is generally recommended in all capture chains.

I do have a BE5 for testing and I can say that it does pass the VCR blue screen test and can be set to blank out macrovision using "Wide VBI" (vertical blanking interval) setting. I haven't directly compared it to the recommended TBC1000, but will eventually do that.

Another option you might consider is a Snell and Wilcox standards converter. These will typically have a part number that starts with CVR. These are definitely meant to handle both PAL and NTSC and I believe all in that series have S-Video in and out. Most of them also have SDI out which is even better if you have an SDI capture card as the signal would stay digital after a single analog to digital conversion. Many models also have other features like a set number of line blanking from the top and bottom independently (so you can mask the video head switching noise at the time of capture instead of in post), and all have proc amp functions. Some also have pattern generators that you could use to record test tapes from as well.

Caveat with the standards converters is that it has been suggested that certain ones may not actually put the signal through the TBC part if you aren't converting from NTSC to PAL or PAL to NTSC - For VHS capture, we'd just be having it take NTSC in and outputting NTSC. By the nature of them being standards converters though, their normal function involves deleting and creating lots of frames, so they should be more than up to the task theoretically.

Descriptions of the TBCs of the CVR series varies a lot within their manuals as below for a few examples:

CVR250 - "Standards converter, timebase corrector, synchronizer and video processor in one compact box"

CVR450 - "Rugged TBC performance enables reliable processing of poor quality input signals"

CVR600 - "multi-standard broadcast quality 12-bit sampling, 10-bit processing standards converter, synchronizer, aspect ratio converter, noise reducer, and time base stabilizer"

The other argument you'll hear is that professional units like the Snell and Wilcox were not made to handle consumer grade (error prone) sources, but I've yet to see a video showing a Snell and Wilcox not working with consumer sources - could just be that no one bothered to make a video on them or that I just haven't seen the video though. I have a few different CVR series units for testing as well.

Half the battle is really designing what a TBC stress test needs to look like and I've yet to get any inquiries about donations of any difficult tapes to use in that testing. I've found that blue screen test fail doesn't mean that it won't work well with actual video as the VCR blue screen is not technically an NTSC signal (it's like 288p or something I read, and can vary from VCR to VCR).

[ahmed12h]

I really appreciate ur reply. But in some how, all devices u mentioned them are lack . and there is no way to find good device u can rely on it. I bought many many TBC's bbut most of them are out of service.
I am working hard to get a new one/ good one but it so hard

[aramkolt]

I don't think I've ever seen a Brighteye TBC fail (other than during a upgrade firmware - I personally don't recommend that)- they have very few electrolytic caps inside, though downside is they are SMTs which are more known for failure in general. The caps they do have are quite physically large - like even though the entire unit runs on 12V, many of the caps are rated for 35V or more so that they are physically larger and have lower ESR (less likely to fail).

I'd be very surprised if that didn't meet your needs since you are just doing composite to composite and want an easy to use proc amp.

[lordsmurf]

I've seen everything in failing states, and S&W gear is no better. And, in fact, probably worse, due to the abusive settings/environment.

I think the goal should be to get off composite, not allow it for inferior captures.

Remember, proc amp should come after frame TBC. Some TBCs have crossover, where composite input is filtered into s-video/YC output. Then you can proper filter with quality proc amps, and in a chroma separated way.

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

Caveat with the standards converters is that it has been suggested that certain ones may not actually put the signal through the TBC part if you aren't converting from NTSC to PAL or PAL to NTSC - For VHS capture, we'd just be having it take NTSC in and outputting NTSC. By the nature of them being standards converters though, their normal function involves deleting and creating lots of frames, so they should be more than up to the task theoretically.

Who suggested that? I think you're mixing up standard color converters with analog to digital converters, The TBS (S&W) and CVR (Grass Valley) series all have the same architecture: ADC, Proc amp, TBC, Frame Sync, audio embed, SDI out. TBC can be turned on or off by front panel or menu in the control app, it has nothing to do with standard conversion.

[aramkolt]

Latreche, you are correct, the S&W manuals do suggest that the signal goes through the digital section even if it's more or less being used as passthrough plus proc-amp. Saw some speculation somewhere that it might not, but can't remember where. I have the 3 models I mentioned above, just haven't tested them to see if they handle consumer video any differently from each other.

Still trying to come up with the actual test protocol for TBCs to show what the strengths and weaknesses are for each so that I can post results. Protocol is important so that I'm not re-testing them all several times. I'd like it to be something that others can repeat on their own equipment so that they can compare/add to the "database" of sorts. The toughest part about a repeatable protocol is that no one is going to have the same VCR and analog/physical media.

[latreche34]

Despite many settings for those devices most of them are not needed for analog video, Keep everything at default or zero, The only thing you may want to change is proc amp setting and audio gain, That's it.

[aramkolt]

One other related comment since LS mentioned this opposite to what I thought would be ideal:

Shouldn't the proc amp be placed before a frame TBC in the chain (presuming the TBC you are using doesn't have its own proc amp)?

My logic is that if illegal analog video signal levels come into a TBC, there's potential for the TBC to clip them during the digital buffering stage and you won't be able "unclip" them afterwords. I guess if you can prove that there is no clipping going on inside of a specific TBC, this probably doesn't matter as much.

I also don't get what the difference would be if you were to use a hardware proc amp after the TBC versus just using the software proc amp controls for your capture card at the time of capture since they are both in the same place in the capture chain then?

My understanding is that standalone proc amps shouldn't be able to clip anything because the signal stays analog throughout the device.

[latreche34]

I don't understand why people are too worried about levels, The levels are always within a margin of tolerance by design, They can only be screwed up during camera shooting when there is an idiot behind it, such as using wrong setting for the scene conditions or wrong white balance, Also low end camcorders with poor performance in indoor conditions, And those will be baked in the tape anyway and cannot be corrected by a proc amp no matter where it sits. Proc amps are good for touching up the levels but not for correcting baked in mistakes.

[Gary34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

I don't understand why people are too worried about levels, The levels are always within a margin of tolerance by design, They can only be screwed up during camera shooting when there is an idiot behind it, such as using wrong setting for the scene conditions or wrong white balance, Also low end camcorders with poor performance in indoor conditions, And those will be baked in the tape anyway and cannot be corrected by a proc amp no matter where it sits. Proc amps are good for touching up the levels but not for correcting baked in mistakes.

What mistakes are baked into the tape that I can’t correct with my proc amp?

[latreche34]

The ones I mentioned above and home videos are full of them.