Beware eBay VCR seller Natob82

[lordsmurf]

TL;DR: Don't be gullible when buying from eBay. Sellers prey on newbies.

<sigh> I knew this would happen eventually.

This eBay seller appeared from nowhere about a year ago, selling a few VCRs. Great, fine.

But then he suddenly started to claim all of the units are "rebuilt" (because that will bring in more suckers buyers). Several of us (who actually refurb/rebuild VCRs) found that fishy, discussing this in private. Now he has dozens and dozens of VCRs listed, and other items, and claims all of them are "rebuilt". Uh, no.

FYI:
-- Refurbishing VCRs take a lot of time, when done properly. It often need partial dismantling, cleaning, re-greasing as needed, re-banding as needed, sometimes a part swapped. It's not just spit-shining the case, and calling it a day, as many eBay sellers do for their "refurbishing".
-- Rebuilding VCRs takes much longer, with full tear-down of multiple units to "frankenstein" a new one (since no new parts exist, and thus must be scavenged from "donor" decks).

There is zero chance that a person can rebuild that many decks, at the pace that he lists new ones. Not even 12voltvids could do that. It's never easy, all units are different, sometimes downright confounding (as you'll also often see in the 12voltvids videos on Youtube).

If your BS-o-meter isn't going off, it should be.

Now his claims are starting to become ridiculous.
For example, certain JVC S-VHS decks have dynamic drums (DD), and time has not been kind to those models. The DD breaks, and makes the unit stop working. There is a de-DD process, as written by our own member latreche34 (and the VH mirror), but it's not 100% safe or reliable. We've discussed ways to repair the DD for years now, across multiple threads, on multiple sites. Certain "fixes", like 3D printing a new gear, were quickly dismissed, due to the fragile nature of 3D printing fine moving parts, and how those would never last. And yet, natob82 has 3D printed pieces, for the insane price of $350+ each. He clearly knew this, as he surely read our conversations. But hey, $$$, who cares if it screws the person? It just means they have to buy more again later! After all, that was the TGrant 2010s playbook for the AG-1980 decks, replacing only bad caps, not all caps, so a $$$ re-refurb is needed again!

Natob82's "about" story alone should give you pause:
"My story begins at age 17, working nights at a value-add reseller of much of what I sell here. During this time, I learned the importance of "value add": top-notch customer service and support.
I take pride in providing exceptional customer service and satisfaction to all customers. I've been an EBayer for over 24 year , and now seller of vintage electronics, I understand the importance of supporting these unique devices, which often lack manufacturer support or information due to their discontinued status. My 100% positive review rating speaks to my dedication to providing a premium buying experience, ensuring that you receive the highest quality product and personalized support every step of the way. Buy with confidence knowing that you're investing in the expertise and commitment of a trusted seller in the vintage electronics community.
I'm a husband, father and VP, Sales at a medical video games studio that creates video games for doctors to advance the practice of medicine."

Let me sum that up for you: he's an eBay reseller on the side, and he sells/plays video games by day. Plus time to raise a family. I guess rebuilding VCRs is something he does in his spare time between midnight and 4am? Zero video background, zero time to rebuild dozens and dozens of VCRs.

But he has 100% positive feedback, you say?
Well "HA!", I say.
Most people do not realize that feedback can be removed, especially if you pay eBay for the perk ("visit store" is a clue). It's not unlimited removal, but just enough, per period, to scrub a record clean. It can also be gamed. The "we never remove feedback" has lots of exceptions to the rule.

The problem with used VCRs (especially from eBay), is that the units often fail after some mild use. When a unit sits dormant for a decade or more, it tends to break down very quickly when it starts to get some use. And yet not so quick that it happens within the 30-day return window, nor the 60-day feedback complaint window. By contrast, this is why I "burn in" test all my gear.

Buyers also procrastinate, and some don't even open the box until after 30 days have passed, and often even after the 60 days feedback window has passed. They just trust the seller was honest and accurate, and it'll all be fine, when they get "around to it". So naïve.

Don't be such a gullible buyer. Educate yourself.

eBay is gambling, not buying. It's a flea market, not Amazon.

[aramkolt]

I think the gears he makes have wider teeth which is fine since they mate to each other rather than to the originals. Either way, they aren't needed to disable to drum in my experience - just removing the fine toothed round gears on each side is all it takes as per the guide.

The main danger of the DD disable (or mode switch cleaning for that matter) is getting the head drum's thin ribbon cable unplugged and plugged back in without damaging it as you remove/reinstall the deck to get access to the underside.

Unless there's some special ribbon cable pulling/pushing tool that I'm not aware of, that's where most of the risk lies.

-- merged --

I actually thought the post might be about his newly listed 9xxx series restoration service for $750. I thought about offering the same service for about half of that with a 1 week turnaround time. I'd also replace the pinch roller on all of them which I'm guessing they probably don't because originals really aren't available for sale - Mine I convert from the sleeve bearing to ball bearing not that it really makes a difference in playback quality, but should help longevity quite a bit with the fresh rubber and bearing.

What's making me ponder not doing that service is what I would do if I wasn't able to fix a unit. I'd be fine paying the return shipping and giving a full refund, but I'd worry about negative feedback if I wasn't able to fix something. Though with the return shipping covered by me, they really are only out the cost of their initial shipping if I can't fix it.

[lordsmurf]

It's really more about the extreme improbability of having ~40 "rebuilt" decks all at once, as a one-man eBay reseller. The DD is just an over-the-top cash grab, selling snake oil 3D printed gears.

And if anybody wants a JVC overhauled this way, Deter is your man.

Heck, I don't even know you that well aramkolt, and sometimes you say things that I raise an eyebrow at, or give me some pause. But I find you more trustworthy than this eBay seller. You care about video, it's not just a side gig cash grab on fleaBay.

Some of us are tired of seeing newbies get suckered.

-- merged --

Off-topic response:

In terms of selling services on eBay, you better do your research on Youtube or Reddit. (While "how to capture video" topics are largely BS on those sites, the eBay situation from sellers is pretty accurate.) Even the eBay community is stuffed with information and complaints. These days, eBay and Etsy are largely pissing off established sellers, chasing them into using their own Shopify stores, where they can set their own return policies. There is a reason that both eBay and Etsy stock are in the gutter right now.

eBay is a site where you sell garage sale type items, and various collectible items (toys, glassware, etc). Most sellers know that electronics are risky buys/sales, because you're at the mercy of stupid buyers/sellers. Those that don't know this will eventually learn the hard way. This is why I'm always warning site visitors/members about the follies of buying their capture gear on eBay.

When items start to creep in value, or you try to offer services (paid time), a single issue can literally wipe out all of your profits. And I don't mean legitimate complaints, I mean ignorant and petty BS.

There is a lot of fraud from both buyers and sellers there, because the system can be gamed. And if you don't know the games, you will be the victim.

Specifically, in terms of "VCR repair service", you're likely to get some <$100 eBay-bought POS sent to you, not a deck from an original owner. There is a reason that most refurb'ers now reject a lot of decks. Those decks have been screwed with, and damaged beyond salvation. And in that likely case, your feedback would be neutral and negative -- unless you pay/game/bribe for removal to get 100% positive rating.

eBay is doing all they can to get younger users, but it's having mixed results. More and more, the site is about flipping items, bare minimum efforts by the sellers. So you have an influx of younger sellers (and thus also buyers), but many of them are also lazier and shitter people (not due to age, but due to the social media grabbing those worse people). Many of the quality sellers and buyers are going elsewhere.

-- merged --

@aramkolt, bumping this so you see my above merged/edited reply to you.

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

The main danger of the DD disable (or mode switch cleaning for that matter) is getting the head drum's thin ribbon cable unplugged and plugged back in without damaging it as you remove/reinstall the deck to get access to the underside.

Unless there's some special ribbon cable pulling/pushing tool that I'm not aware of, that's where most of the risk lies.

Yes, that ribbon cable is too short, too tight, Someone who is not familiar may snap it easily, Unfortunately there is no tool for it, Tweezers are too harsh, maybe a pair of angled needle pliers with rubber tubing on the tips, I always trust my fingers, I unscrew the head and handle it gently with one hand and remove the ribbon with the other hand, never rock or wiggle a ribbon cable, that's how they crack and snap.

[aramkolt]

Yeah, it's kind of the "getting into management" paradox when it comes to being a "recommended" refurbisher:

"Can't get a management job without already having management experience"

This is probably why people are willing to pay $750 for a refurbishing service that is likely relatively straightforward for a typical JVC9xxx series - there's limited competition. I get not trusting someone without a recommendation, but in most cases, there probably isn't anything magical about recommended refurbishers, they are just "known". They (understandably) don't go into the full details on their full refurbishing/testing process and throw ou terms about what they "might need to do" to get it to work, so you don't really know what you're paying for other than for the machine "appear to work" at the end. I say "appear to work" because machines will often work with numerous bad capacitors - until they get a little worse with actual use and then the machine eventually stops working.

-How long it will stay working and if that specific machine would work "better" if someone else had refurbished it will be a mystery the average end user.

Now something like an AG1980 that is much more complicated and requires a lot more components to be changed at a minimum if you do it right, a $750+ price like that makes more sense. TGrantPhoto I see charges $1300 to refurb those haha. Not sure what Deter charges for JVCs and AG1980s.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

Yeah, it's kind of the "getting into management" paradox when it comes to being a "recommended" refurbisher:
"Can't get a management job without already having management experience"
there probably isn't anything magical about recommended refurbishers, they are just "known". They (understandably) don't go into the full details on their full refurbishing/testing process

Not really. The reason these folks are recommended is due to experience, and not being the newbie that doesn't know what he/she doesn't (yet) know. Most quality reputable refurb'er have no secrets about what they do, which is why too many novices think they can do it too. For example, I know how to work on a car. But I'm no expert, and I'd have no idea what to do if something wasn't "by the book" or typical. But most mechanics certainly do.

Video is an odd area, where everybody thinks they can be an instant expert at it. Everything from the hardware, to the software, to the workflows, to the field work. But it's not the case. You get a lot of hacks and charlatans, some of whom may not even realize they're low-knowledge quacks. By contrast, most people know that they have no clue about fixing their car, or even giving themselves a hair cut. But video? "I got this" (and then they fail, or just do a crap job at it).

Quote:

Now something like an AG1980 that is much more complicated and requires a lot more components to be changed at a minimum if you do it right, a $750+ price like that makes more sense. TGrantPhoto I see charges $1300 to refurb those haha. Not sure what Deter charges for JVCs and AG1980s.

FYI, this "Natob82" person also had multiple AG-1980P listed not long ago.

I'm not sure what Deter charges for the AG-1980/P now, but at least $500, probably more like $750 or $1000. It's a lot of work, it's slow, it's frustrating. Every single deck is different, present different exact problems. It's not a rinse/repeat exercise.

TGrant (TGPsales) made a lot of us feel used. We paid $500+ average in the mid/late 2010s for refurbs, and his work didn't last. Some of us were duped by later repeat issues, and made to think that our decks were to blame, or even user error was the cause. It was gaslighting. So we sent it in for another costly re-refurb, and always more costly than before. Then it broke again. After Deter got the decks on his workbench, he let us know how lousy the refurb work really was. (Though I do think TGrant has some knowledge of the boards adjustments for chroma.) With TGrant, you do get some "it's a secret method!" BS. And he uses cheap no-name Chinese PSUs (which fail CE/UL, spew noise), instead of reliable no-noise name branded PSUs.

I don't want to see crap like that happen in the capture community again. Not TGrant, not this eBay seller goober, etc. Video capture (hobby, pro, archivist, passerby DIY, etc) is a small group, within limited outlets. We need to protect each other from bullcrap, especially from those who want to bilk us out of our dollars. The capture process is expensive enough, without botched repairs, and without selling/buying the bad/wrong gear.

So when you see a person claim to have all models of high-end decks, all rebuilt/whatever, it is too good to be true. And you know what that means. BS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

I thought about offering the same service

aramkolt, you seem to care about video. And that's great!

But don't go too fast, don't get "too big for yer britches" (don't put on "big boy pants"). Be slow, always learning. Realize you're the newbie. You're the student, not the teacher. (Don't be the angsty whiny teen Anakin padawan that wants to be a master without putting in the time, not getting the experience. He didn't get his way, and turned to the Dark Side!)

If you want to sell something, then sell one, see how it goes. Build out slowly. If you look at this community (on The Digital FAQ, VideoHelp, TapeHeads, few other sites) with $$$$$ in your eyes, you'll fail, be shunned, quick crash-and-burn, etc. It's happened many times over the decades. We in the larger capture/tape communities welcome new members, new faces, new ideas. But not more/new BS, scammers, hucksters, or those who prey on newbie lack of knowledge.

[916Area52]

Pleased that I didn’t see this thread before reaching out to Natob82

My experience,

Recently I put a call out to have two of my JVC HR-S7800U VCR’s serviced and or repaired. The two 7800’s (from eBay) have seen about two hundred and fifty VHS tapes (respectively, from me) run through them. The only TLC that was shown to them was a tape path cleaning and lube/greasing every fifty tapes or so. After recently experiencing some concerns/issues with these 7800’s, Natob82 answered my call for service and or repair for my JVC HR-S7800U VCR’s, with the following known issues…
#1, HR-S7800U Had begun to suffer from ghost loading/un-loading. Also, the shuttle switch was not functioning properly.
#2, HR-S7800U Had developed a drum squeak and had become increasingly noisy when loading and unloading tape as well as coming in and out of FF or REW.

Sent these two VCR’s off to Nato82 for service, and he provided the following…

“Hi Roy,
As promised, here is the work I did on your 7800s:
#1
I replaced the video drum with a low-use, well-functioning one. I also fully serviced the tape mechanism by replacing the belts, removing all the old grease, doing a deep clean, replacing the worn brakes, and regreasing the mechanicals.
#2 (notated as “2” on the front left top of the display face)
I serviced the tape mechanism as mentioned above. For the selector knob, I initially thought it might need either a complete replacement or a new flex cable. After inspecting it, I found the issue was with the contacts between the board and the PCB for the knob. I cleaned and reseated everything, and now the knob works perfectly. If you run into any more issues, let me know and I can send a replacement knob. But from what I found, it was just a matter of poor contact between the knob electronics and the main board—pretty common with these flex cables. Of note your flex cable was in really good shape, it just needed to be thoroughly cleaned.
Let me know if you have any questions, thanks!
- Nate”

Yesterday (9-16-24) I received the two 7800’s back after being serviced/repaired by Natob82. This morning (9-17-24) I couldn’t wait to check out the freshly serviced VCR's.

The following are my findings…

#1 VCR- Removed the top... Looked pretty clean. After doing a closer inspection, found the tape path was clean, the drum and video heads were clean as well. Loading belt is new. Ran a test tape through it, tape loaded and loaded just fine. Shuttle knob worked fine as well. Started an archive (doing so now as this is being written) session. The VCR does not have a squeaky drum as it did before the service. However, the VCR did make some un-familiar noises at the beginning of the archive session, I'm thinking that the belts were finding their groove. Anyway, no more un-familiar noises are being heard. The picture quality of the tape being archived looks good.

#2 VCR- Removed the top... Looked pretty clean. After doing a closer inspection, found the tape path, drum and video heads needed a cleaning. Loading belt is new. Ran a test tape through it, tape loaded and loaded just fine. Shuttle knob is very tight when moved to the right, when moved to the left for scanning- the tape and drive stutters, not a smooth scan. I will take you up on your offer "If you run into any more issues, let me know and I can send a replacement knob". As with #1 VCR, it did make some un-familiar noises at the beginning of the archive session, again I'm thinking that the belts were finding their groove. Anyway, no more un-familiar noises are being heard. The picture quality of the tape being archived looks good.

Bottom line…

Would I use Nato82 services again? Absolutely!

My other two JVC HR-S7800U VCR’s will be off to Nato82 shortly.
They suffer from the following ailments…
#3 (from lord smurf), S7800U has begun to suffer from ghost loading/un-loading. Also, as the archiving session continues, the quality of the files suffers.
#4 (from eBay), S7800U become increasingly noisy when going in and out of FF or REW.
I’m sure there are other issues other than what I observe and or aware of.

My .02
Roy

[npbrown82]

@Lordsmurf – Hi, this is Natob82 (Nate Brown). This is just coming to my attention, and I’m sorry to see your comments and would love the opportunity to discuss any concerns directly. I believe in open and honest communication, so feel free to reach out to me anytime. My direct number is 312-515-0421, or if you’d prefer, send me your contact info and I’ll be happy to give you a call. A video chat works too if that’s easier. My philosophy, both personally and in business, is to address issues head-on, with respect and transparency. I’d really appreciate the chance to have an open dialogue with you.

[latreche34]

Or you can just respond to the alleged accusations in the open, instead of a one on one call. Don't get me wrong, I respect your privacy but me personally if someone is accusing me with something I don't mind having a public dialog.

[npbrown82]

@Latreche34 - I appreciate your perspective. However, when accusations are made in a public forum without ever reaching out to me directly (and I don’t even know the OP), I believe it’s more appropriate to have a 1:1 conversation first. In my experience, sensitive topics like this are best addressed through live conversations to ensure clarity and mutual understanding. Many would agree that platforms like Twitter/X, Facebook, and forums aren't ideal for productive and constructive communication, especially in this context. I’m happy to respond publicly after a live discussion, and I think this is a fair approach considering the context.

[aramkolt]

Newer JVCs most of the time just need a clean of the mode switch, tape path cleaning, disabling of the dynamic drum if they have one (7800 does not have a dynamic drum), and some additional grease applied to the appropriate places. Phantom loading/unloading is almost certainly a dirty mode switch or cracked solder joints. Addressing these things alone is likely to fix 90% of problems on these series in my experience.


Some wordings in the refurbishing listing as well as the DD disable listings make me raise an eyebrow:

"Complete disassembly and a deep clean of every part of the VCR. My goal is to make your VCR as close to factory-new as possible." - per your customer 916Area52, doesn't sound like this was done. He said they looked "pretty clean" and you mentioned only refurbishing specific areas that had problems - which I think is very reasonable, it's just quite a bit less than what the auction description implies (to me) would have all been done.

"Rebuilding the tape mechanism" - this seems unnecessary to say this is being done in a separate statement when elsewhere in the listing it says that the VCR undergoes "Complete disassembly and a deep clean of every part of the VCR". How is "complete disassembly of every part of the VCR" not always also inclusive of "rebuilding the tape mechanism"?


Another questionable phrase from the DD-disable listing (For $350 plus $15 shipping):

"[That refurbishing includes] Disabling the dynamic drum system for improved reliability, including gearing that must be replaced with new, extensively tested 3D-printed gears"

Standard dynamic drum disabling does not require replacing anything as a "must", and many here will attest that have disabled their DD without needing 3D printed gears. Once the fine toothed gears are removed on the underside of the video head drum on both sides, the remaining gears aren't likely to crack since there's no longer significant stress placed on them when the mechanism moves and anything that hasn't already cracked is very unlikely to crack after that in terms of future reliability. There is one scenario where the gear on the transverse shaft that is driven by the motor could have cracked before the traditional DD disable which can either result in a noisy DD or cause the motor to jam in operation due to the crack, but it is possible to repair that gear without replacing it, and I have had results that I believe turned out quieter/smoother than the 3D printed set shown in the video in the listing which has audio. Hard to say for sure though without having them both side by side.


I am confident that Natob82 does high quality repairs, but I suspect that the rhetoric may be a little exaggerated, possibly to justify a more premium price. Nothing wrong with premium prices if people want to pay them.

@Npbrown82 - I think posting several pictures showing a single JVC VCR that you are refurbishing in its "fully disassembled state" before anything is re-assembled with all individual parts cleaned and laid out on a table as well as the top and bottom of the fully disassembled deck would be helpful to showcase the degree of disassembly and cleaning that you do. I'd be fully ready to change my opinion depending on those pictures.

[latreche34]

I have nothing against anyone selling whatever they want at any price they want, but if someone reaches out to me for help about a listing I will give them the right advise and the right price, For instance if someone asks me what is the right price for this composite mono VHS VCR, I would say about $50, But if someone decided to buy it full price of $1000, Am I going to blame the seller? Absolutely not.

[qwertz73]

My God! I fell out of my chair
https://www.ebay.com/itm/186673242262