Capture Hi8 PAL films with Firewire?

[twixdaim]

Hi!

I recently bought a Sony DCR-TRV480E (PAL). I also tried to capture hi8/h8 films with elgato video capture. The results were not good, it looked terrible. So I bought a Sony DCR-TRV480E (PAL), and thought it was a better way for saving family memories. I also thought it was lossless because of the filesize (20 gb, 30 gb), but i guess its not. The quality of the picture is better, its has some noise(white noise?) but the picture looks okay. I cant compare it to the picture when using composite, because I dont own an CRT tv (im using a composite to hdmi adapter), and the LCD -display on the camera is so small so Im not really sure how good it should look, and how true the capture is to the original. I have never done this before, and after a lot of research i'm not any wiser.

I use windows movie maker when capturing. I tried to use virtualdub, but got an error message. My mission is to preserve family memories captured on hi8/h8 tapes, keep the files digital on a SSD-drive, and burn them on dvd so my parents can see then om their dvd player.

Should I change something about my "set up"? I have read a lot of topics on this forum, and it seems that there are a lot of opinions about what the best way to capture h8/hi8 is.

Should I change my software? Should i try to use virtualdub with compression? I have tried to edit some stuff in adobe premier pro, the files are (i guess DV?) AVI, before they get encoded to mp4 , h.264.

[aramkolt]

An interesting test you can do with what you already have is to use the elgato with virtualdub to capture interlaced at 50 fields per second into a lossless codec then later deinterlace with QTGMC using something like staxrip or hybrid.

Also, it looks like your 480E doesn't have S-Video output, so you are at a disadvantage over a camcorder that does have S-Video output as there will be more detail conveyed with less luma/chroma crosstalk and it should appear sharper.

For DV capture, most suggest using WinDV, but if you go to the info on the files you have captured, it should say something about the DV codec being used for the AVI file and be about 12gb per hour and still interlaced. You should also then deinterlace the DV file with QTGMC as well. PAL DV is said to be more forgiving than NTSC DV since it uses 4:2:0 chroma subsampling which is the same as DVD and Youtube use if those are your destination formats. DV can be blocky in some cases, but that's usually if you're in a really low contrast scene like very dark scenes that you might notice it.

DV should probably look better than a composite capture from a Hi8 tape since S-Video is not an option here, but you should do a short clip of both (using virtualdub on the composite) and see what you think.

[twixdaim]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

An interesting test you can do with what you already have is to use the elgato with virtualdub to capture interlaced at 50 fields per second into a lossless codec then later deinterlace with QTGMC using something like staxrip or hybrid.

Also, it looks like your 480E doesn't have S-Video output, so you are at a disadvantage over a camcorder that does have S-Video output as there will be more detail conveyed with less luma/chroma crosstalk and it should appear sharper.

For DV capture, most suggest using WinDV, but if you go to the info on the files you have captured, it should say something about the DV codec being used for the AVI file and be about 12gb per hour and still interlaced. You should also then deinterlace the DV file with QTGMC as well. PAL DV is said to be more forgiving than NTSC DV since it uses 4:2:0 chroma subsampling which is the same as DVD and Youtube use if those are your destination formats. DV can be blocky in some cases, but that's usually if you're in a really low contrast scene like very dark scenes that you might notice it.

DV should probably look better than a composite capture from a Hi8 tape since S-Video is not an option here, but you should do a short clip of both (using virtualdub on the composite) and see what you think.

I forgot to mention that I have a Sony handycam hi8 camcorder with S-video, its from the 90s. I tried to use it with Elgato before I bought the 480E. I couldn't get any sound from virtualdub, only picture. And the picture looked worse than my DV AVI files. No compression settings because I got an error message so I havent tried lossless. I can post it when I wake up ( its 05am in Norway).

DV 4:2:0. checked with VLC media player. I will try using elgato and the other camcorder with s-video. Should the picture be better with a capture device like elgato? I was disappointed when I used it, the picture is not sharp, but I could not get it to work with virtualdub.

H8 and Hi8 is analog, but what should I expect when it comes to colors? I can clearly see that the colors are brighter on the display on both camcorders

[aramkolt]

The elgato supposedly isn't as terrible when used with Virtualdub since it can preserve interlacing and capture lossless in 50fps in PAL land. Apparently at least some of the Elgatos used the same chipset as the Diamond VC500 which often get fair reviews.

The elgato does require a VCR with line TBC though since it is quite sensitive to horizontal wobble. VWestLife has a demo of it here at 11:17 or so in the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NuquTDhjGY He used OBS, but the idea would be the same with virtualdub.

In that same video, VWestlife found that certain Sony DVD recorders outperform the elgato with stock software and it seems to have its own line TBC like effect as well, probably not dissimilar to what an ES15 does. In his demo video, it is not super surprising that the DVD capture was much better than the Elgato's stock software since it does preserve interlacing and is doing so at a much higher bitrate.

So sounds like you should get a decent result using the elgato with S-Video input that is first passed through the ES15 and then using virtualdub for the lossless capture at 50fps. You'd then want to deinterlace with QTGMC that and possibly upscale to 720p or something if you plan to put it on YouTube or share it. Both the QTGMC and upscaling can be done in the same conversion using something like hybrid or staxrip.

[Gary34]

I don’t really see the point in giving people advice like that when they come here. If they are wondering the popular view point or what most people do then they can find that at a lot of places. It’s not really what they come here for and if they are new they don’t really know what’s going on. The majority of information out there is information like that. It’s not doing them any favors giving the new people that kind of advice. Why do you think he should keep and use his Elgato?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

I don’t really see the point in giving people advice like that when they come here. If they are wondering the popular view point or what most people do then they can find that at a lot of places. It’s not really what they come here for and if they are new they don’t really know what’s going on. The majority of information out there is information like that. It’s not doing them any favors giving the new people that kind of advice. Why do you think he should keep and use his Elgato?

Correct, and thank you.

Walmart and McDonald's are also popular, but essentially the worst places around. Easycaps (and Elgatos, and DV, and others not mentioned like ClearClick and HDMI anything) are the video equivalent, lowest quality, bad quality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twixdaim

Hi!

Welcome!

Quote:

I recently bought a Sony DCR-TRV480E (PAL). I also tried to capture hi8/h8 films with elgato video capture. The results were not good, it looked terrible. So I bought a Sony DCR-TRV480E (PAL), and thought it was a better way for saving family memories. I also thought it was lossless because of the filesize (20 gb, 30 gb), but i guess its not. The quality of the picture is better, its has some noise(white noise?) but the picture looks okay. I cant compare it to the picture when using composite, because I dont own an CRT tv (im using a composite to hdmi adapter), and the LCD -display on the camera is so small so Im not really sure how good it should look, and how true the capture is to the original. I have never done this before, and after a lot of research i'm not any wiser.

You are correct on every metric here.

- tiny preview screens are worthless to gauge quality
- Easycap is terrible
- DV methods are "better", but it's a relative term, quality is still lousy, as DV is an ancient 1990s digitize method

Quote:

I use windows movie maker when capturing. I tried to use virtualdub, but got an error message.

Windows Movie Maker is really a joke of a video software, from the era of Real Media (remember that?), WMV, and DV only. It's also a late 90s (99-00) era program.

VirtualDub should work -- but not with junk cards, and not with DV cameras.
NOTE: If you really insisted on using DV, what you needed was WinDV. But don't do it, the quality is lousy, as you've already concluded.

Quote:

My mission is to preserve family memories captured on hi8/h8 tapes, keep the files digital on a SSD-drive, and burn them on dvd so my parents can see then om their dvd player.

This is an excellent project, you have the right attitude, and it will be outstanding if you use the right tools for that task. That means quality camera (which you should have, confirm TBC present), ideally some form of frame TBC, and a good capture card.

Quote:

Should I change something about my "set up"? I have read a lot of topics on this forum, and it seems that there are a lot of opinions about what the best way to capture h8/hi8 is.

Well, yes and no. There are basic facts to conversion.
- quality playback camera/VCR required
- some form of TBC required; ideally both line and frame
- quality capture card required
- quality capture software required

There is some leeway on differing opinions, but some people have wrong opinions. Yes, opinions can be wrong when based on faulty information. ("I think oak is better than pine for car tires" is an example of a stupid opinion, because you don't use wood for tires. The same is true of anything, including video. The only difference is people are not fully aware of video, as they are with car tires.)

Quote:

Should I change my software? Should i try to use virtualdub with compression? I have tried to edit some stuff in adobe premier pro, the files are (i guess DV?) AVI, before they get encoded to mp4 , h.264.

Yes, VirtualDub, and the Huffyuv codec.
Premiere is great, but not for export to H.264, as the deinterlacers are all garbage. Export Premiere to an interlaced lossless AVI file, then let Hybrid encode to H.264 (and with better options), while also deinterlacing with QTGMC in the same pass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

An interesting test you can do with what you already have is to use the elgato

Interesting for who? You?
Such tests have no merit here. He's trying to do a conversion project, not play with toys. What you suggest is what video gear testers do, and that's not him.

Quote:

Also, it looks like your 480E doesn't have S-Video output, so you are at a disadvantage over a camcorder that does have S-Video output as there will be more detail conveyed with less luma/chroma crosstalk and it should appear sharper.

Eh. Most Hi8 cameras have excellent composite out, so I'm not bothered about that here. Hi8 cameras are not VHS VCRs.

Quote:

DV should probably look better than a composite capture from a Hi8 tape since S-Video is not an option here,

No. Whatever advantage may have existed was destroyed by the color compression.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twixdaim

DV 4:2:0. checked with VLC media player. I will try using elgato and the other camcorder with s-video. Should the picture be better with a capture device like elgato? I was disappointed when I used it, the picture is not sharp, but I could not get it to work with virtualdub.

Don't punish yourself with DV. You can do better.

Quote:

H8 and Hi8 is analog, but what should I expect when it comes to colors? I can clearly see that the colors are brighter on the display on both camcorders

Hi8 color is outstanding, and easily gets harmed by bad converter hardware.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

The elgato supposedly isn't as terrible when used with Virtualdub since it can preserve interlacing and capture lossless in 50fps in PAL land.

It's not about interlace or lossless, but rather the absolute butchering of values (exposure, color tints, contrast, etc).

Quote:

Apparently at least some of the Elgatos used the same chipset as the Diamond VC500 which often get fair reviews.

Whatever reviews you read were left by idiots, because the Elgatos refuse to work properly in VirtualDub, and VC500 has aggressive AGC (rapid video too bright, too dark) errors.

Quote:

So sounds like you should get a decent result using the elgato with S-Video input

No.

Quote:

You'd then want to deinterlace with QTGMC that

Yes.

Quote:

and possibly upscale to 720p or something

No...

Quote:

if you plan to put it on YouTube

... excluding Youtube, because it insists on upscaled input source.

Quote:

Both the QTGMC and upscaling can be done in the same conversion using something like hybrid or staxrip.

Yes, Hybrid.

[twixdaim]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

...

Thanks! Its a jungle out there, as we say in Norway " too much information and opinions, so its easy to get lost". So if I understand correctly, I can use my sony handycam with S-video, but I need a VCR? or SVHS ? And i a good capture card? What kind? I live in Norway, so I guess i have to order stuff from ebay or amazon? I am a bit confused why a SVHS player is important

My current computer is running Windows 11(laptop). But I also have a computer that had windows 7 installed(laptop), it runs windows 10 now.

I have only used windows movie maker as an importing tool. Editing is done in adobe premier pro.

[lordsmurf]

Your current Sony camcorder is fine for your Hi8 and Video8 tapes. (Any discussion of VHS and S-VHS, here in this thread about Hi8 and Video8, was an example.)

eBay and Amazon are not where quality gear comes from. eBay is old abused junk, Amazon is cheap junk from China.

You will have a much easier time using your Windows 7 system.

Windows Movie Maker does not capture (import) properly.

[aramkolt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

I don’t really see the point in giving people advice like that when they come here. If they are wondering the popular view point or what most people do then they can find that at a lot of places. It’s not really what they come here for and if they are new they don’t really know what’s going on. The majority of information out there is information like that. It’s not doing them any favors giving the new people that kind of advice. Why do you think he should keep and use his Elgato?

The point of this advice would be to make the original poster aware that their existing hardware can likely capture losslessly when used in a different configuration and is certain to perform better than it does with the stock software which is meant for low bitrate captures that don't take up much hard drive space. This is not something that is widely discussed (hence not easy to find info on elsewhere) and most people have never tried it. The weakness cited by Vwestlife in the demo video I linked was that it does not work well without a line TBC which the original poster probably has within his Digital8/Hi8 cameras anyway.

An analogy would be that it would be like buying a digital 10-megapixel camera and sticking with a default 2-megapixel photo setting and being upset with the picture detail. The "next step" would always be to set the camera to the native 10 megapixel resolution setting and see if you are satisfied with that before discarding it for a completely different camera.

Satisfactory quality is kind of subjective, and it's not clear how much the original poster wants to spend. The original poster could be more than happy with a lossless capture via the elgato, they won't know until they try. The bonus is that it doesn't cost anything to try it since it requires no new hardware.

Other users have been able to get lossless/interlaced capture to work and the results don't look bad. Granted, in this test, they are capturing from a DVD, but I think it should do ok with Hi8 content and the internal line TBC already present in the camera.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1GQXEsKsYg

I will eventually do my own lossless capture testing with an elgato and post the results as part of my other capture card testing comparisons which will be its own thread eventually once I've fully developed the test protocol. I want to get that protocol right since I'll be testing something like 20 capture cards and methods and want to show as many differences as possible rather than just "tell" about differences.

[Gary34]

Quote:

An interesting test you can do with what you already have is to use the elgato with virtualdub to capture interlaced at 50 fields per second into a lossless codec then later deinterlace with QTGMC using something like staxrip or hybrid.

He probably doesn’t want to do any testing right now. He’s learning right now and everything’s new. Trying to test everything like you are doing is a really long way around. Fine if you want to though it’s just probably not what he wants to do.

Quote:

Satisfactory quality is kind of subjective, and it's not clear how much the original poster wants to spend.

Budgets change anyways. Really new people don’t have an idea of what to expect with the budget. You have all this time where people are recommending lesser gear then you come here and you’re shocked at first until you realize why it’s the way it is.

Quote:

The original poster could be more than happy with a lossless capture via the elgato, they won't know until they try.

Why recommend something that is universally criticized like that to someone that doesn’t know what’s what yet. It’s better to have recommendations that are based on data.