Suggestions/changes/settings on current setup?

[heychrischin]

Hey all.

I have been assigned the task of digitizing the family VHS tapes. Would like to do as good a job as possible, but am definitely not going to break the bank. I am looking at about 10-20 VHS tapes.

I’ve cobbled together the current parts for my workflow:

Mitsubishi HS-U747 -> s-video out -> s-video to SDI break-out cables -> DataVideo DVK-100 -> SDI out -> Grass Valley ADVC G3 -> HDMI out -> Guermok HDMI to USB-C video capture card -> Thunderbolt 4 Port M1 iMac -> Final Cut Pro X

My goal is end up with two versions saved - 1.) a capture that is as close to the original video as possible, and 2.) a de-interlaced, 59.9 fps & upscaled version that looks as good as possible. I’m not concerned about storage so compression isn’t an issue.

Assuming my attachment takes, I have included the input/output capabilities of the Grass Valley ADVC G3.

Doing a test run of the DVK-100, it appears to be passing video with no noise.

Bearing all of that info, I have three questions:

1.) given this setup, is there anything to bear in mind or to be particularly aware of?

2.) are there any process changes/software changes that I can make to do the best job possible (given this hardware)?

3.) what settings should I use on the Grass Valley ADVC G3 to achieve my above-stated two goals?

(A disclaimer - I am aware that this isn’t the MOST OPTIMAL setup, but it’s the best I can do with my resources. Any suggestions that boil down to “buy better equipment” will be ignored)

Thank you.

[lordsmurf]

Welcome.

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Bearing all of that info, I have three questions:
1.) given this setup, is there anything to bear in mind or to be particularly aware of?

Yep.

Quote:

Originally Posted by heychrischin

Mitsubishi HS-U747 -> s-video out -> s-video to SDI break-out cables -> DataVideo DVK-100 -> SDI out -> Grass Valley ADVC G3 -> HDMI out -> Guermok HDMI to USB-C video capture card -> Thunderbolt 4 Port M1 iMac -> Final Cut Pro X

Yikes! That's a mess.

The DVK-100 SDI is composite. So you're massively lowering quality by doing that. SDI is a connection, not a signal carrier, and I'm guessing you read wrong/incomplete info online that suggested SDI was best. Not te case. On that DVK-100, you need s-video in and s-video out.

Remember: those DVK can inject noise due to the fan, and many need board modding for fan removal. Some have simple connectors, many do not. The fan is silly -- the unit is vented, has plenty of interior space, is metal, and really doesn't get very hot.

The weak frame TBC function is also inert on certain pathways, and it doesn't match for all versions. So you'll have to test for proper I/O, otherwise using it is pointless, as you're not really using a frame TBC at all. In many cases, the master output is the path, not the channel out.

"Guermok" is one of those nonsense Chinese brands, used only to sell on Amazon. It doesn't exist. Those HDMI cards are complete garbage, I've had one for years now, and need to post examples of it sometime. This isn't what you want.

The Grass Valley box is just redundant.

Blackmagic is not suggested, but it's sadly better than the above GV/Guermock mess (gear after the VCR and DVK).

I adore my Macs (the M2 Pro Mini especially), but those are the wrong tool for capturing video. Mac workflows are essentially stuck using old 1990s DV methods, with a few lousy HD options. Mac was always about camera-shot video editing, never ingest/capture. Do you not have any Windows system available? It doesn't need to be anything new, any system from the 2010s is fine. WinXP or Win7 (or Vista, yuck) is best, but some paths with 8/10.

With a Windows system, you have access to vastly better capture cards, workflows, and software.

FCPX is perfect, I've used FCP since version 1.

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My goal is end up with two versions saved - 1.) a capture that is as close to the original video as possible, and

With the above gear, that will not happen whatsoever. I would bet than even the awful Easycap (Easycrap) would look better than the Guermok. Neither are suggested, of course.

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2.) a de-interlaced, 59.9 fps & upscaled version that looks as good as possible. I’m not concerned about storage so compression isn’t an issue.

Mac will again be a problem. You have no real option to QTGMC deinterlace, the best method. Everything else is vastly inferior.

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Doing a test run of the DVK-100, it appears to be passing video with no noise.

Remember to judge on a large TV, not a tiny preview window on a computer.

2.) are there any process changes/software changes that I can make to do the best job possible (given this hardware)?

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3.) what settings should I use on the Grass Valley ADVC G3 to achieve my above-stated two goals?

This box really is redundant. Sell it on eBay, put those funds towards a Windows box/laptop.

Quote:

(A disclaimer - I am aware that this isn’t the MOST OPTIMAL setup, but it’s the best I can do with my resources. Any suggestions that boil down to “buy better equipment” will be ignored)
Thank you.

Those problem is your gear doesn't align with goals.

Mac = no good deinterlace, no QTGMC
Mac = no good capture cards, no good capture software = no way to get "1.) a capture that is as close to the original video as possible"

There are some cheap options for a not-terrible Windows capture cards (and no, not GV-USB2 or Live2, there are better still, for cheaper yet), and it'll be net $0 if you can return that cheapo "Guermok" junk to Amazon.

That leaves the Windows system, which is very possible by reselling that GV box. It's not a system I'd suggest for more than 20 tapes, but you'll be fine. Or perhaps you can borrow one, maybe even be given one for free (because, again, a 15-year-old Windows system is probably fine here, and people literally use those for doorstops at times!).

Otherwise you'll not meet either goal, and you're going to find the entire process fiddly and disappointing.

None of this is the suggested methods, neither your original idea, nor even my salvage method. But for 10-20 tapes, and ultra-budget, it's passable.

[heychrischin]

Are you aware of any resources specifically for examining the internals of the DVK-100?

[aramkolt]

I think you are confusing SDI for BNC. BNC is really just the connector in use and does not really say anything about the signal information passing through it. SDI is a digital communication protocol "Serial Digital Interface" and can cary any type of signal up to 1080p60fps over a single wire, or go as low as 480i 29.97 (interlaced). SDI is basically the equivalent of HDMI, just using a single wire, so it's easy to convert one to the other without losing any information as both are digital signals.

BNC connectors can also cary analog signals like composite, component, and S-Video and are functionally identical to RCA plugs, they just tend to use higher quality connectors and cabling typically.

That being said, the DVK-100 doesn't have SDI input or output (only has composite or S-Video in/out), so I don't think that can connect up to the ADVC G3 which requires an SDI (digital) input. The ADVC G1, on the other hand, can take any analog input (including S-Video or Composite) and convert it to SDI output either with or without also upscaling at the same time.

The most well known SDI capture card for modern Macs would be the Blackmagic 3G Recorder and that can capture either SDI or HDMI (has connectors for both) using Blackmagic media express. All it does is just storing an already digital signal, so it's not particularly doing any heavy lifting per se. It's whatever device you have that is converting the analog signal to digital is where the real properties/accuracy/stability of the capture are going to originate from.

For simplicity, it's probably easier to just capture the same tape twice though and just have the G1 set to upscale/deinterlace on one of the runs and just leave it 480i on a second run.

So going mostly the route you want (and as LS mentioned, likely subpar hardware deinterlacing) you could use either an ADVC-G1 or a Blackmagic Analog to SDI placed after the DVK-100 and feed them S-Video (which they can both accept over BNC connectors) and you'll also need an SDI capture card that is capable of 480i capture if you want one of the runs to be interlaced (the Guermok can't per the specs, gotta make sure SDI/HDMI capture card shows that as a supported resolution). The BMD 3G recorder can though. The G1 is the only device between those two that can upscale/deinterlace though if you are wanting one of the runs to be hardware upscaled.


The ADVC-G1 and BMD Analog to SDI is on my list of devices to test haha.

I also plan to do hardware upscaler testing as well to answer some of these age-old questions that you'd think would have been definitively answered a long time ago - like "what is the best hardware deinterlacer and how inferior is it to QTGMC?"

[heychrischin]

I realized I messed up when typing my current setup:

-- merged --

S-video goes from the VCR directly to the DVK-100, and breaks out to SDI after that into the Grass Valley ADVC.

Also, based on the previous reply, I do have access to the following components:

* Cooler Master RC-912-KKN1 case
* Supermicro X10SRA-F board (my preliminary research seems to indicate that this is capable of running XP)
* Samsung 850 EVO SSD, access to many more of these with different storage capacities
* Not sure of the graphics card currently inside

Plenty of room for an internal capture card. My use case will be 10-20 VHS tapes and the components mentioned above, would appreciate any suggestions on an internal capture card.

The SDI cables are RG59 3G BNC.

[aramkolt]

Nah, still doesn't make sense. The DVK-100 doesn't have SDI output - only S-Video and/or Composite. Without SDI output, the ADVC-G3 won't be able to do anything as it requires an SDI signal in to change into HDMI. My guess is if you hook it up like you have described, you'll get no HDMI output visible on a TV, but might as well check. Could be that the G3 is mislabeled and can possibly accept composite or SDI via the same plug, but I doubt it. That's the only way you'd get HDMI output of the G3 there into a TV with the way it's currently described.

[heychrischin]

The cable coming out of the DVK-100 looks like this:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...Dual_BNC.html/

[aramkolt]

Attach a picture of the back of your ADVC-G3. Photos I see online only show SDI input which S-Video is not. As mentioned above, connector can be the same, but the G3 isn't going to recognize the signal.

No need to take my word for it though - do you actually see video output after the video goes through the ADVC-G3? I know you see it after the DVK-100, but that isn't surprising since you're just going from S-Video to S-Video

[heychrischin]

I messed up the cable ordering in my initial post. It would be:

Mitsubishi HS-U747 -> s-video out -> DataVideo DVK-100 -> S-Video To Dual BNC Cable -> Grass Valley ADVC G3 -> HDMI out -> Guermok HDMI to USB-C video capture card -> Thunderbolt 4 Port M1 iMac -> Final Cut Pro X

The cable coming out of the DVK-100 would be a RG59 3G BNC cable, which can send 1080P.

I’m considering building a PC for importing (I have a spare Coolermaster case sitting around, you can see my post about it here: https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...apture-pc.html

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by heychrischin

Are you aware of any resources specifically for examining the internals of the DVK-100?

No. All you really find online is "telephone gamed" info originally sourced from me, and the official marketing materials.

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Originally Posted by aramkolt

so I don't think that can connect up to the ADVC G3 which requires an SDI (digital) input.

If true, digital SDI only, yep, a definite non-starter there.

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For simplicity, it's probably easier to just capture the same tape twice though and just have the G1 set to upscale/deinterlace on one of the runs and just leave it 480i on a second run.

Yuck.

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like "what is the best hardware deinterlacer and how inferior is it to QTGMC?"

Vastly.

[latreche34]

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Originally Posted by heychrischin

I messed up the cable ordering in my initial post. It would be:

Mitsubishi HS-U747 -> s-video out -> DataVideo DVK-100 -> S-Video To Dual BNC Cable -> Grass Valley ADVC G3 -> HDMI out -> Guermok HDMI to USB-C video capture card -> Thunderbolt 4 Port M1 iMac -> Final Cut Pro X

No, not going to happen, The ADVC G3 based on this exact model characters does not have BNC Y/C input, Only digital SDI input, Stop throwing money at gadgets without having full knowledge about them, The least, post pictures of your devices and we'll show you on how to use them, or guide you to get the right gear. So far the chroma keyer is the wrong tool, The SDI to HDMI converter is useless, Neither needed for capturing analog video.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

No, not going to happen, The ADVC G3 based on this exact model characters does not have BNC Y/C input, Only digital SDI input, Stop throwing money at gadgets without having full knowledge about them, The least, post pictures of your devices and we'll show you on how to use them, or guide you to get the right gear. So far the chroma keyer is the wrong tool, The SDI to HDMI converter is useless, Neither needed for capturing analog video.

No, the DVK is a good tool, serving as weak frame TBC(ish).

His other thread is to build out a Windows system from existing gear, and adding a few things, like an ideal capture card.

I think he's well on his way now, as long as he follows through.

The main weakness is the non-TBC Mitsu VCR, and he'll at least need to inject the ES10/15 for line TBC(ish), to truly get quality of any kind. But I think he'll address that as well, since ES10/15 really isn't an expensive item, often under $100 lately.

[Gary34]

You came to the right place. This saved you a lot of time and frustration. I would just read the guide and take a little time to study up. Some of us younger crowd came here after doing something goofy we learned off of YouTube. The older crowd was doing this when more people used to do this the right way. Most of the information out there about this topic now days is really bad.

It’s good that you’re not capturing in Final Cut Pro X. NLEs aren’t good for capturing. They have to much going on. Everything goes a lot smoother in a dedicated capture software like Vdub using Huffy. The post processing software they use here is way better an NLE and it’s designed for this task.

[heychrischin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

No, not going to happen, The ADVC G3 based on this exact model characters does not have BNC Y/C input, Only digital SDI input, Stop throwing money at gadgets without having full knowledge about them, The least, post pictures of your devices and we'll show you on how to use them, or guide you to get the right gear. So far the chroma keyer is the wrong tool, The SDI to HDMI converter is useless, Neither needed for capturing analog video.

This is my first post on this forum & this is the equipment I had when I came looking for help.

The condescending tone of this reply is unnecessary and unwelcoming. Based upon the replies to it from other forums members, it also appears that your assessment of some of the equipment is factually wrong.

[Gary34]

Quote:

The condescending tone of this reply is unnecessary and unwelcoming. Based upon the replies to it from other forums members, it also appears that your assessment of some of the equipment is factually wrong.

Meh. It’s mild IMO. Your workflow is pretty out there. I said NO out loud when I read it. Ow well. You are getting it figured out. That’s the important thing.

[aramkolt]

We've all been there - I don't think any malice was meant by it. It's just easy to get frustrated when multiple members have said it is not possible for your video chain to work and it's only possible to try to explain it in so many ways. There are plenty of things that forum members disagree on, but this won't be one of them because it just can't work.

The problem is that BNC cables can cary any type of signal that requires two conductors, but the device on the receiving end needs to be designed to interpret the signal you give it for anything useful to happen there.

Sending either BNC plug from the S-Video breakout cable to an SDI input plug would be about as useful as plugging an audio output RCA plug (red or white) into your yellow video RCA plug on a TV and expecting to see video. It just won't happen even though the connectors are the same.

The basic function of the ADVC-G3 is also described in its name "SDI to HDMI". So giving it anything other than an SDI input signal (not just giving it the connector that SDI uses) will not give you video output on the HDMI out from it.

Next steps/changes to the chain would be capturing via a different device that can accept S-Video input coming out of the DVK-100. If you really want to go the HDMI capture route (which isn't particularly recommended unless using high end gear), you'll need something that converts S-Video to HDMI first. Even so, you'd probably need a different HDMI capture card to capture it interlaced as yours does not appear to support 480/525i interlaced captures if you are wanting something as close to the source as possible.

[Gary34]

He’s not saying his workflow is good. He got some random stuff. He knows he messed up but he seems to be open to doing it a better way. He probably got confused because when you go to a lot of sites people will give out random information to new people. I’m not talking about you Aramkolt there because I know you don’t say to do that workflow. I’m just saying it can get confusing if you are listening to the wrong sources and you don’t have the knowledge to vet anything. This place gives people the knowledge to see through a lot of stuff.

I like the adding an ES 10/15 to the workflow idea LS brought up. He’s already got a DVK and his VCR doesn’t have a TBC anyways. That workflow will have some drawbacks compared to a real frame TBC and a line TBC but it sounds like a good fit for his project. With the ES15 you need the remote.

[latreche34]

When I seen you going the wrong direction with the wrong gear and still didn't get the warning after few posts and kept trying to justify using the wrong devices I had to caution you, If you don't like my tone of urgency, oh well, good luck.