Frequent black lines in VHS recordings?

[wing]

Hi there,
My brother recently gifted me a good condition VCR and stack of tapes, and I invested in some HD capture equipment (both upscaler and downscaler because I am looking to send digital footage to VCR for a VHS treatment). I use capture everything via OBS, and my frame rate is set to 30 FPS (NTSC, I'm based in the US).

Initially everything was going great. But lately, I am noticing all of my recordings to tape are resulting in a much greater-than-usual amount of black lines flickering across the screen. To show you exactly what I mean, here is a recording I did yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghi_tr_-0-4

The primary issue I am referring to are the black lines flickering across the screen.

I have tested a lot of things in my signal path which I believe I can rule out:

1. Tapes – the above clip was recorded on brand new, sealed, TDK HS T-120 at SP, which I was reading here on the forums is one of the better brands.

However I should mention in addition to this, I have tried it on various other tapes I have, including Sony, JVC, and more. The issue looks the same on all of them.

Interestingly, other material on some of the tapes which included some movies and home videos, play back entirely fine. So therefore, I think I can rule out tapes as the culprit;

2. Analog Signal Path – I thought originally it could be interference with the signal, however after trying various cables it was the same.

3. Digital Signal Path & Converters – I am able to live monitor the converted analog signal path to and fro the VCR via OBS (in other words I can see in real time the clip pass thru the VCR and back into the digital domain). There are no lines, no flickering, no issues. So therefore, I think I can rule out the digital conversion, but also the analog path since it appears clean when tape is not involved.

Therefore, it seems those lines are only appearing as a result of recording to VHS, and playing it back (but like I said, playing back anything else on the same tape is clean - so it's not the tape itself nor the signal path.

All of that in mind I have begun to think it must be the VCR heads or electronics, but this I know little about. I purchased a Dry Cleaning Cassette from Amazon and ran that through this morning. Nothing changed after that. I know that there are liquid cassette cleaners but I couldn't find a decent one still available on the market.

I have also heard people speak about a piece of clean printing paper dipped in a light amount of 91% IPA and lightly brushing the heads with that. I have some experience with DIY electronics repair but I'm no expert, so I'm hoping before going down that road maybe someone is able to see the type of lines in that video above and recognize what it might be caused by and perhaps how I might be able to fix it.

Thank you!

[aramkolt]

Those appear to be "line dropouts". Each VCR sort of masks them or handles them differently, but in all cases, they should only be in the same place for a single frame. Could be dirty heads as you mentioned, possibly worn heads or could be you are recording in EP whereas commercial tapes are almost always SP and therefore would use the other pair of heads.

Part of your issue also could be if your framerate is truly 30fps that you are feeding it. Should be 29.97 for NTSC video. Not sure what happens when you give a VCR a feed with a slightly wrong framerate. Probably looks mostly ok since it's close.

[lordsmurf]

Welcome.

Replying as I read...

Quote:

Originally Posted by wing

My brother recently gifted me a good condition VCR and stack of tapes, and I invested in some HD capture equipment (both upscaler and downscaler because I am looking to send digital footage to VCR for a VHS treatment). I use capture everything via OBS, and my frame rate is set to 30 FPS (NTSC, I'm based in the US).

To send "to" a VHS tape, yes, you need output scalers. Specifically a scaler that understands 720x486/576, overscan, and properly down-converts to s-video (or composite, yuck).

For ingest/capture "from" a VHS tape, this is the wrong approach.

Do not attempt to upscale VHS during upscale, it will make a mess. Furthermoer, OBS is a digital streaming/broadcast software that "also does" (and badly) analog videotape capture.

You need to capture consumer SD analog videotapes (VHS, Hi8, etc) at the max allowed spec of 720x480/576 interlaced. Once it's been ingested/captured, then you can properly QTGMC deinterlace, upscale if needed, etc.

Trying to use HD gear on a VHS tape is like trying to powerdrill to mix cake batter. It's the wrong tool, it just makes a mess. Trying to use OBS is like trying to attach a skateboard to your car's flat tire, it's the wrong tool. Yes, all of these redneck method things "work", but not well.

Quote:

Initially everything was going great. But lately, I am noticing all of my recordings to tape are resulting in a much greater-than-usual amount of black lines flickering across the screen. To show you exactly what I mean, here is a recording I did yesterday:
The primary issue I am referring to are the black lines flickering across the screen.

In that sample, I see jitter (lack of line TBC, or harsh jitter with TBC), possibly dirty heads, possibly degraded tapes (and some tapes were degraded when blank/new).

Quote:

I have tested a lot of things in my signal path which I believe I can rule out:
1. Tapes – the above clip was recorded on brand new, sealed, TDK HS T-120 at SP, which I was reading here on the forums is one of the better brands.
However I should mention in addition to this, I have tried it on various other tapes I have, including Sony, JVC, and more. The issue looks the same on all of them.

The doesn't necessarily rule out the tapes, but it does put a troubleshoot onus on the VCR. So let's set the tapes aside, look there.

Quote:

Interestingly, other material on some of the tapes which included some movies and home videos, play back entirely fine. So therefore, I think I can rule out tapes as the culprit;

This post is somewhat confusing, referring to both VHS playback/capture and recording.

So you're saying that pre-recorded tapes (both homemade recordings from long ago, as well as "store bought" retail tapes) look fine?

And then tapes you recorded, and are now viewing, do not? Answered:

Quote:

Therefore, it seems those lines are only appearing as a result of recording to VHS, and playing it back (but like I said, playing back anything else on the same tape is clean - so it's not the tape itself nor the signal path.

Quote:

All of that in mind I have begun to think it must be the VCR heads or electronics, but this I know little about. I purchased a Dry Cleaning Cassette from Amazon and ran that through this morning. Nothing changed after that. I know that there are liquid cassette cleaners but I couldn't find a decent one still available on the market.

That thing is junk, return it, get your $10 back. So-called "cleaning" tapes simply push dirt around. You need to remove it. (Think of the lazy worker/kid with a mop, not actually cleaning the floor, just making the dirt wet, moving it around the floor.)

Quote:

I have also heard people speak about a piece of clean printing paper dipped in a light amount of 91% IPA and lightly brushing the heads with that. I have some experience with DIY electronics repair but I'm no expert, so I'm hoping before going down that road maybe someone is able to see the type of lines in that video above and recognize what it might be caused by and perhaps how I might be able to fix it.

Correct, IPA in nice clean white "copy paper" strip (folder over about 4 times). Be gentle!

The thing not mentioned here is the VCR in question. I have a feeling it's just a low-end junker deck, and should be replaced. The dropout pattern seen here is likely not something that can be cleaned away, but deeper head damage. Mere cleaning problems often present as white streaks, but black streaks usually suggest head cyclinder damage.

Random VCRs give random (non)quality.

[wing]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

Those appear to be "line dropouts". Each VCR sort of masks them or handles them differently, but in all cases, they should only be in the same place for a single frame. Could be dirty heads as you mentioned, possibly worn heads or could be you are recording in EP whereas commercial tapes are almost always SP and therefore would use the other pair of heads.

Part of your issue also could be if your framerate is truly 30fps that you are feeding it. Should be 29.97 for NTSC video. Not sure what happens when you give a VCR a feed with a slightly wrong framerate. Probably looks mostly ok since it's close.

Thanks! I can confirm actually I had chosen SP on the VCR before recording that clip. Yes my videos and the OBS settings both say 30.00 FPS, I will try 29.97 to see what happens and report back!

[wing]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Welcome.
To send "to" a VHS tape, yes, you need output scalers. Specifically a scaler that understands 720x486/576, overscan, and properly down-converts to s-video (or composite, yuck).

For ingest/capture "from" a VHS tape, this is the wrong approach.

Do not attempt to upscale VHS during upscale, it will make a mess. Furthermoer, OBS is a digital streaming/broadcast software that "also does" (and badly) analog videotape capture.

You need to capture consumer SD analog videotapes (VHS, Hi8, etc) at the max allowed spec of 720x480/576 interlaced. Once it's been ingested/captured, then you can properly QTGMC deinterlace, upscale if needed, etc.

Trying to use HD gear on a VHS tape is like trying to powerdrill to mix cake batter. It's the wrong tool, it just makes a mess. Trying to use OBS is like trying to attach a skateboard to your car's flat tire, it's the wrong tool. Yes, all of these redneck method things "work", but not well.

In that sample, I see jitter (lack of line TBC, or harsh jitter with TBC), possibly dirty heads, possibly degraded tapes (and some tapes were degraded when blank/new).

The doesn't necessarily rule out the tapes, but it does put a troubleshoot onus on the VCR. So let's set the tapes aside, look there.

Hi, thank you for the detail! I am not sure if I specified in my original post, but I should have clarified that in the first month or so with the VCR, I've had all the same settings regarding the capture equipment, I/O signal path, OBS, and frame rate – and all my recordings were beautiful! No line issues at all. The lines suddenly started appearing out of nowhere last week, without any other changes to the setup.

My brother had recommended the same capture equipment and had used the VCR himself, as well as recommending OBS - all of his captured recordings are great too. None of this is to say that your information is incorrect, but just in my particular scenario, it was not proving to be a problem at least initially.

I am, however, willing to look into any recommended equipment and software you might suggest instead – please let me know what you think would be work better, ideally within a reasonable budget. One important consideration here is that I am intentionally using this to give a lo-fi vintage treatment to modern footage; so I am not looking for the most hi-fi setup. I like what I was getting before, I would just prefer it without the flickering lines for sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

This post is somewhat confusing, referring to both VHS playback/capture and recording.

So you're saying that pre-recorded tapes (both homemade recordings from long ago, as well as "store bought" retail tapes) look fine?

Sorry for not being clear on that. Yes, some of the tapes I have used included other footage including retail bought movies, as well as homemade recordings. In addition, some recordings my brother had done on the VCR a month prior before sending to me. And like I said the footage from when I first got it. When I record to these same tapes, and capture both my new footage and prior footage, only the new footage has those lines. Therefore, my point was that I think from that information it is not likely the output signal path (analog or digital), and not likely the playback heads, and also not likely the tapes – to me, this would all suggest the issue is at the input/record phase itself, whether that is the signal path, the electronics, or the record heads – since playback is totally clean with footage recorded prior/elsewhere but on the same tapes!

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

That thing is junk, return it, get your $10 back. So-called "cleaning" tapes simply push dirt around. You need to remove it. (Think of the lazy worker/kid with a mop, not actually cleaning the floor, just making the dirt wet, moving it around the floor.)


Correct, IPA in nice clean white "copy paper" strip (folder over about 4 times). Be gentle!

The thing not mentioned here is the VCR in question. I have a feeling it's just a low-end junker deck, and should be replaced. The dropout pattern seen here is likely not something that can be cleaned away, but deeper head damage. Mere cleaning problems often present as white streaks, but black streaks usually suggest head cyclinder damage.

Noted, thanks for that information! The VCR is called Symphonic. I'm happy to uprade to something better if a simple cleaning doesn't at least fix it. What might you recommend (especially considering my goal with this is not necessarily extreme hi-fi)? I could have a look around on eBay.

Thanks again.