ES10 and DVK device chain order?

[heychrischin]

I'll be using a Panasonic DMR-ES15 and a DataVideo DVK-100 for the "TBC-equivalent" part of my setup.

Would the arrangement in the flow chain (putting the ES15 before the DVK-100, or vice versa) have an impact?

For example: if the TBC-like features in the ES15 do more "work" than the DVK's weak TBC, would having it come before the DVK in the chain do more effective cleaning?

[aramkolt]

Should go:

VCR (S-Video if available and proably any line TBC features turned off) -> DMR-ES15 (S-Video output) -> DVK-100 (S-Video output) -> Capture card

If the VCR has a line TBC and with that on, if you aren't seeing any top of the screen image tearing or vertical waviness at the edges or with straight lines, you probably don't need the DMR-ES15 in the chain at all if you aren't seeing dropped frames reported in virtual dub without it. If you do use the ES15, usually you'd turn the line TBC off on the VCR.

Main test is to make sure you are getting any dropped frames in virtualdub to know that everything is working appropriately.

Each passthrough device will probably soften or add a little noise (which is hopefully visually insignificant), so I wouldn't have devices in there that you don't need if you aren't seeing dropped frames or image tearing/flagging at the top. It's very capture-card-specific as to how much of a timebase error they'll allow before they start to drop frames and the stability of the signal is very VCR and tape dependent as well, so different tapes may need different interventions.

I am pretty confident that my AG1980's don't drop any frames without any other type of TBC inline, but I do need to do some more testing with a variety of tapes to really verify that. With really bad tapes, I'm sure even those would benefit from some other device inline.

[heychrischin]

No TBC in the VCR - it’s a Mitsubishi HS-U747.

It has S-video out & comb filter, but no TBC. These parts will be necessary.

Excellent! Thank you much!

[aramkolt]

I've heard good things about those Mitsubishi's. They used the same mechanism as the HS-HD2000U I think, just with different electronics and heads I think.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by heychrischin

I'll be using a Panasonic DMR-ES15 and a DataVideo DVK-100 for the "TBC-equivalent" part of my setup.
Would the arrangement in the flow chain (putting the ES15 before the DVK-100, or vice versa) have an impact?
For example: if the TBC-like features in the ES15 do more "work" than the DVK's weak TBC, would having it come before the DVK in the chain do more effective cleaning?

VCR > line TBC(ish) passthrough > frame TBC
VCR > ES10/15 > DVK

The reason is simple. Line corrects literally line by line, essentially in-frame (intraframe) X*Y axis, what you see, obvious visible improvements. Frame corrects the whole frame, temporally frame-to-frame (interframe), which "locks in" the line timing.

DVKs need modding, the factory spec spews noise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

If the VCR has a line TBC and with that on, if you aren't seeing any top of the screen image tearing or vertical waviness at the edges or with straight lines, you probably don't need the DMR-ES15 in the chain at all if you aren't seeing dropped frames reported in virtual dub without it. If you do use the ES15, usually you'd turn the line TBC off on the VCR.

This can be both true and false. It's really case-by-case. Lots of tapes, you'll need both. Less tapes, perhaps you can get by.

Quote:

Each passthrough device will probably soften or add a little noise (which is hopefully visually insignificant)

You often repeat this, but it's overblown. Yes, bad devices screw up the signal with noise, artifacts, softening. The ES10/15 does this for sure -- but not so awful that it should be used when needed. Here, with no line TBC in the VCR, it's 100% needed.

But good devices have good "transparency", and the DVK can fit that bill. However, it has other weaknesses, separate from transparency. Again, it really depends on the project(s) it will be used for. Video capture isn't a "one size fits all" T-shirt. There are constants (TBCs needed!), and variables (which units are chosen).

Quote:

I am pretty confident that my AG1980's don't drop any frames without any other type of TBC inline, but I do need to do some more testing with a variety of tapes to really verify that.

No, it'll drop. I've been using those for almost 20 years now, and have used multiple units in the years. Droppy drop drop drop! There's nothing special about the AG-1980P here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

I've heard good things about those Mitsubishi's. They used the same mechanism as the HS-HD2000U I think, just with different electronics and heads I think.

Mitsubishi weakness is longer non-SP modes (weak tracking), and audio (distortions, lack of tracking, etc).

[Gary34]

Quote:

No, it'll drop. I've been using those for almost 20 years now, and have used multiple units in the years. Droppy drop drop drop! There's nothing special about the AG-1980P here.

I thought the same thing Aramkolt thinks about that. It’s my only quality deck though so I don’t have anything else that is built really solid like the 1980. It drops less that my POS thrift store deck.

[lordsmurf]

Oh yeah, drop less. But still drop. It's still just field/multi-line.

[aramkolt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

I thought the same thing Aramkolt thinks about that. It’s my only quality deck though so I don’t have anything else that is built really solid like the 1980. It drops less that my POS thrift store deck.

How often do you get drops with yours?

What I have seen is a single frame insertion every 3000 frames or so (which I assume is due to slightly different clocks on the computer vs VCR), but no drops, but I need to do some longer captures to really verify that.

I assume that the opposite could also happen if there's a slightly different clock speed in the other direction where it'd drop one frame like clockwork every 3000 frames maybe?

Does it drop with literally all tapes that are over a certain length, or is it more likely to happen with say EP tapes?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

Does it drop with literally all tapes that are over a certain length, or is it more likely to happen with say EP tapes?

How many, and how often, is random, based on multiple tape factors. It's never 0, and can be few to many.

[Gary34]

Quote:

How often do you get drops with yours?

I don’t remember how often the drops were but I know it dropped less with my 1980. I think that’s normal to have less drops with a better player. The digitizer is a factor there too then obviously the tapes. The only way I have been able to not get drops or inserts is with a frame TBC.

Quote:

Does it drop with literally all tapes that are over a certain length, or is it more likely to happen with say EP tapes?

I only played EP VHS-C tapes without a frame TBC. I hit a chunk of white noise and had a ton of frame drops so I didn’t capture like that anymore. I figured it’s probably not good on the card.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

I think that’s normal to have less drops with a better player.

Correct.

For example, better transports reduce the flutter, improve stability. But it's still not enough. Better, not enough.

Quote:

The only way I have been able to not get drops or inserts is with a frame TBC.

Correct.

We don't own TBCs because we like to waste money. Those are boring boxes, boring essential tools, with one essential task. No different from a lawnmower or refrigerator, but for video capturing.

Quote:

I only played EP VHS-C tapes without a frame TBC. I hit a chunk of white noise and had a ton of frame drops so I didn’t capture like that anymore. I figured it’s probably not good on the card.

Correct.

It will drop not just at snow, but anything less than (impossible) perfection. Noting that perfection is not something you can visually "see", because video signals are not 100% visible. You can have a mess in the overscan (actually beyond the overscan), outside the visible capture palette, and be completely oblivious to the problems in it.

Too many people are simpleminded. Literally "monkey see" (and monkey do), not comprehending what "monkey can't see". This situation is like oxygen. You breathe it, you understand it, know it's there, but you can't naked-eye see it. The video signal is video's oxygen, only observable with special tools.

[Gary34]

I must of skim read Aramkolt’s comment or something when I said I agreed with that. I don’t agree with no dropped frames. Its less but not none.