Which of these ATI AIW card to pick?

[adrianls]

Hey guys
I found two possible ati aiw cards that I could buy to build my setup around. My goal is to record my hi8 tapes from my camera with s video output, through a tbc, into a pc.

I found these two listings:

AIW 8500 DV AGP for 50€
Includes: A remote, what I think is the remote receiver via usb, a (proprietary?) cable ending in a fist sized black box with several output (or input?) options to plug into, as well as what look like two two audio plugs which I guess go into the soundcard because from what I’ve read, it doesent record audio on its own.

AIW x800 xl or GT 100€ (both are mentioned in the description)
Is supposed to have never been used before.
Was put online in February (bad sign that it wasn’t sold yet?)
Includes: A very similar cable as the card above but with an additional outputs (/inputs?)
Software disks: Gladiator 8, catalyst, Visual communication: Serious Magic, Pinnacle Studios

If at all, which card would you choose?

[lordsmurf]

AGP x800 should be fine.

[BW37]

Whichever card you choose, make sure you get the correct “dongle” or “adapter cable” for that exact card. From your brief descriptions, it sounds like they are included, but you need to be sure. If you can attach pictures of the complete “kits” you will get for each card, we can help you be sure.

Also, the 8500 DV is an AGP card so will require an AGP motherboard to be installed in. The X800 (XL or GT) is a PCIe card and will require a (more modern but still Windows XP compatible) PCIe motherboard to be installed in. There is an AIW X800 that is an AGP card: the AIW X800 XT.

This website is a pretty good reference to compare the various AIW cards:
https://videocardz.net/ati-all-in-wonder-x800-xl

You need to scroll down quite a ways to see the entire listing of AIWs…

BW

[adrianls]

Thank you guys so much for the quick reply!
The person selling the x800 send me a better picture of the cable that comes with it and it has the dongle like look that I saw when doing research so I think I’m on the safe side BW37.

I only want to get into it on a hobby level. Just digitising my own hi8 tapes. I have a hi8 camcorder with tbc build in and s video output which is also the device I’m recording with. I read about you having to have a tbc between the camcorder and the capture card but I don’t want to spend 500€+ on a tbc unit at professional level. Is there anything more affordable that I could use? Or should I just record directly from my camcorder instead? I thought I saw a thread about this some time ago but I can’t find it anymore.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrianls

I don’t want to spend 500€+ on a tbc unit at professional level. Is there anything more affordable that I could use?

500€ for a TBC is not "professional level".

A TBC is boring tool, not much different than a refrigerator or clothes washing machine. And those have costs too, at least 500€ as well. (A truly "professional" TBC/appliance, which also isn't intended for consumer sources like VHS/Hi8 tapes, can cost 10x that amount, 5000€+, as would a "professional" refrigerator.)

Even a mere non-TBC frame sync, in certain consumer DVD recorders, is at least $100 used (and was $300+ new).

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that 500€ is a lot, or a "professional" item. It's not.

500€ is a hobby/DIY budget. Video is actually a quite cheap hobby, compared to more-common hobbies like photography, action figures, cars, or even sewing.

Many people have a phones that cost more than 500€ -- and it's not professional either.

Quote:

Or should I just record directly from my camcorder instead?

You're welcome to try, but expect dropped frames (and thus audio sync issues).

[adrianls]

I never thought of it that way. But yeah that makes total sense. I read somewhere on the forum that a tbc 1000 is supposed to be a good model. Is that referring to, for example: A Panasonic NV-HS 1000 with tbc or is that something completely different? Do you have any specific models you would recommend in the 500€ price tier?

[lordsmurf]

Eh, time has not been kind to the DataVideo TBCs, which have been failing since 2019. The only way you should buy a TBC-1000 now if it's it's refurb'd, or you know how to refurb it yourself (which is NOT easy, and can sometimes be irreparable).

The internal TBC in a VCR is a line TBC.
The external TBC, like DataVideos, are frame TBC.

Line cleans the image, frame cleans the signal. You need both.

A moving picture has the X*Y visible axis, and the motion/temporal Z axis. Line is X*Y, frame is Z.

My crass analogy is rubbers/condoms and the pill. One is safe, two is safer. Having just one can still result in crotch goblins or STDs. Having both reduces chances of problems by 99%+ -- exactly like having both TBCs for all axis.

For the best TBCs (no, still not pro), in the 2020s, 500€ is gambling on a fixer-upper unit, not buying a unit. That was the new cost 25 years ago, not the used costs now. TBCs have normalized to in-demand AV/photo gear, with inflation. Average cost of a TBC is about $2000 USD, not too far from 2000€.

At 500€, you'll be looking at weaker TBC(ish) devices, maybe certain PAL-only units that are not perfect quality. So it really depends on what matters more: money or quality. You can't have both.

At 500€ range, you have the DVKs (but those still need modding/preset), certain hard-to-find Cypress (PAL only), composite TBCs (mostly NTSC only).

I may have a lead on something, I'll PM you.

[adrianls]

I see, pal only would actually not be an issue since my camcorder is a pal one.
And please do, that has already been very enlightening so thank you already!

I was asking about the Panasonic NV-HS 1000 because I could get a restored one from a local shop for 425€ maybe even 400€ would that device serve this purpose?

[lordsmurf]

Panasonic S-VHS with TBC > no frame TBC > AIW = not the best workflow. Not enough resilience.

Better =
Panasonic S-VHS with TBC > no frame TBC > my Pinnacle PAL cards

AIW cards tend to "pick up" more of the signal, both good and bad. Without frame TBC, the bad can cause capture problems. Not having frame TBC is not good, so the resilience of the capture card because extremely important. Most cards fall apart without proper timing. You also never want to attempt that on a large project, you'll hate capturing. I generally only recommend trying this when a person has 10 tapes or less.

Again, "buy it, use it, resell it", quality gear holds value. Sometimes it sells for the same or more (great!), sometimes a bit less (aka your rental fee). But it does resell. It's not a used car that loses 50% of value immediately.

I have a Panasonic NV-HS1000, and I'm not a fan. No DOC. The NV-FS200 is supposedly better.

[Gary34]

I have noticed the Pinnacle card I bought from you is very resilient. How do the Pinnacle cards you sell rank against other cards like the ATI 600 USB when it comes to resiliency?

[lordsmurf]

AIW has some inherent "weakness" due to strength. Make that make sense.

600 has forced weakness. Thank for nothing, Macrovision. Note that resilience has nothing to do with anti-copy, but it can have overlap.

Pinnacles vary on sub-version. I know how to break them, how to test them. But the good units are some of the most resilient. More than DV boxes, vastly more than the meme'd Live2/GV-USB2 weaklings. In some ways, it's a stubborn card. Or maybe a cranky old person that has one task, and does it well. (Some people say that about me, I don't mind. I'm a Pinnacle?) But it's not an island, merely one piece of a quality workflow (or even a budget workflow).

There's a really sharp fall-off from resilient, to crippled, to weak, to crap. Most all cards are the latter. The curve is ugly if you charted it.

Maybe someday I'll have time for charting it, with a battery of cards (and I have many). I know others are taking my teachings, my information, and making Youtube videos from it. But the subs and views don't make me want to do it myself. My time is better spent elsewhere, at least for now.

[radiokom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

My crass analogy is rubbers/condoms and the pill. One is safe, two is safer. Having just one can still result in crotch goblins or STDs. Having both reduces chances of problems by 99%+ -- exactly like having both TBCs for all axis.

True. When I was in Kenya about 10 years ago, I has been warned - if I decide to do "Tuki Tuki" 2 condoms should be worn because of high HIV level in that area

[radiokom]

But, before switch on line TBC you should be sure your VCR is in perfect working order, heads and transport are clean and tracking checked and adjusted manually if required. Otherwise there can be situation when TBC try to correct VCR errors. At least one good multi signal test tape is needed for this purpose.

And this is a question to lordsmurf: maybe it is possible to record new test tapes? I am sure you have necessary equipment and knowledge to do it. I have all necessary equipment and knowledge to record audio test tapes including cassette tapes on Studer A80QC (test tape head block is original from BASF Mannheim, recorder from EMI Electrola Holland), but video is different story.

Maybe video test tapes worth separate topic?