Is this VHS worth re-capture?

[Riker0007]

I captured my family vhs tapes a while ago and was gonna do some correction and came across possibly recapturing my tapes.
I used a panasonic PV-8661 that is just a regular vhs into my DVDO HD+ video processor via composite for the full frame video correction, but no scaling into my black magic intensity 4k unit via hdmi. There were no dropped frames. Some tapes where poor quality, but not sure that was due to my setup or not?
In any case would it be a noticeable difference if I recaptured via a passthrough line tbc such as Panasonic DMR-ES35V or Panasonic DMR‑ES10 or a s-vhs unit like a JVC HR-S7600U or hr-7800u perhaps even a JVC SR-V10U ?
Is this a worth task?
Thanks in advance.

[lordsmurf]

Yes, that should be a substantial upgrade in quality.

[Aya_Rei]

So we got a consumer Panasonic VCR, some sort of upscaler and a black magic intensity 4k hdmi capture card that was designed for HD sources, and at most broadcast SD sources (U-Matic, Betacam, etc), not consumer SD sources like VHS and Video8

Yeah, I'd say recapturing them with an S-VHS VCR and an ATI or Pinnacle capture card at most would be a quality bump. Probably as good as your tapes would look.

Yes an external frame time base corrector would help on not having to deal with dropped frames or audio sync issues, but for visible quality, what you and I can physically see. Then an S-VHS VCR and ATI or Pinnacle USB capture card with VirtualDub as the capture software should show an improvement.

It might not be a big improvement, but it is an improvement at the end of the day.

If you ever do make the jump, you could share some before and after samples.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

It might not be a big improvement, but it is an improvement at the end of the day.

No, I'm pretty sure this would a be a large quality leap. He/she will probably be amazed at how good the tapes can look. The low-end VCR, lack of TBCs, and non-suggested capture card, has really damaged the video quality that was possible.

[Aya_Rei]

Can agree, especially if you were using something like an Elgato and it's crappy built in software.

I've done it before back in 2023 before getting a recommended workflow, and I can't look back at those captures without going "Man this looks like complete ass"

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riker0007

I captured my family vhs tapes a while ago and was gonna do some correction and came across possibly recapturing my tapes.
I used a panasonic PV-8661 that is just a regular vhs into my DVDO HD+ video processor via composite for the full frame video correction, but no scaling into my black magic intensity 4k unit via hdmi. There were no dropped frames. Some tapes where poor quality, but not sure that was due to my setup or not?
In any case would it be a noticeable difference if I recaptured via a passthrough line tbc such as Panasonic DMR-ES35V or Panasonic DMR‑ES10 or a s-vhs unit like a JVC HR-S7600U or hr-7800u perhaps even a JVC SR-V10U ?
Is this a worth task?
Thanks in advance.

It may have partly been your setup, your playback deck's condition, and partly some of your tapes but we dont have a crystal ball. To help answer these questions more fully you might like to upload some examples of your previous captures. Help us to help you.

[Riker0007]

I will edit some tongiht and upload hopefully.
Anyone think the JVC HR-S7500u is good/comparable to the HR-S7600U or just try to find a Hr-S7600u?
I'll look into the pinnacle capture unit (suggestions on which unit?). And I thought running the source into the DVDoO HD+ (was expensive and used for an old HD projector) would help with the processing and full frame TBC. Thanks!!!!

-- merged --

I decided to just get a panasonic hr-s7800u and here is what I've found so far. When I run it directly into the black magic intensity pro 4k via svideo it shows some drop frames. When I run it into the dvdo HD+ (outputs via hdmi with no upscaling) it doesn't but it will only output 480p and I set everything to zero as far as contrast, brightness etc. I thought it's best to capture without any changes and do all the processing in the computer. It appears to be slightly video processed after passing it through the DVDO when compared going directly to intensity, maybe over constrasty/white seemed washed out. I could drop the contrast via dvdo, but I'm not sure that is what to do. Not sure about a potentiometer on the chroma? I'm running test to see which looks better. Is there a better capture device? Not sure where to go from here. I will do some captures and upload.

[radiokom]

I now experiment with Pinnacle 710-USB and I found it is better for s-video input than Blackmagic (all models) - as Lord Smurf and others are mentioned in many threads. Not because of dropping frames (with good frame TBC I never noticed good Blackmagic (there are many bad cards of the same model) drops frames by itself, but there are a lot of other imperfections. For Pinnacle 710-USB you need crossbar thing and capture in virtual dub. If you want to edit files later in Adobe Premiere, capture uncompressed, Premiere does not accept HuffYUV. But I found processor usage under Windows 7 is about 3-16% max when capture uncompressed. For now I have learned and seen enough to switch from Blackmagic to Pinnacle-710. So for now I have 2 good workings systems - Panasonic NV-HS1000/Cypress CTB-531R TBC/Pinnacle-710USB and Panasonic NV-HS950/Cypress CDM-831TR TBC/multi format converter/Pinnacle-710USB. When JVC HR-S7722 from VCRshop will arrive, I believe those 3 will be my main VCRs along with 3 NV-FS1 for rewind and special needs. NV-FS1 has no built in line TBC, but has excellent drive and built quality (restored, with recapped PSU of course). And manual tracking adjustment by potentiometer. So in cases when Panasonic ES10 should be used I will use it with NV-FS1.

[Riker0007]

Thanks for your input. Which TBC would you suggest? And do you know if the pinnacle 710 is just as good or better than the io data? I got the black magic years ago for 8mm film capture with a telecine unit and the dvdo was from my old crt projector back in the day and remembered it stated it had a Full frame tbc. What do you think of using a VIDEONICS MX 1 ?
Thanks again.

[ge0dude]

I've read threads where LordSmurf advises against the videonics MX-1.

I've also read threads where people use them successfully, but with a suggested dvd recorder in front of it I imagine (for passthrough line-TBC)

You could also use a Datavideo DVK-100 or DVK-200 as a poor mans TBC along with the panasonic DMR-ES10 or DMR-ES15. All these create a poor mans TBC.

The DVK/MX-1 would be used as a "weak" frame TBC, and something like a Panasonic DMR-ES10 would be used as a line TBC, before the frame TBC. These are budget workflows. I cannot guarantee you'll get good results with the MX-1. Might make your picture look weird or something. I'd love to see a side by side comparison.

[radiokom]

Yes, for telecine they are OK, they has HDMI or, at least, component output if older, but you capture in HD anyway. For s-video and composite inputs there was many wonders - each card from the same model shows different results (Blackmagic dealer is my friend so I had no problems to return cards what did not worked as they should). Now I decided to learn more and experiment with other cards, in this case Pinnacle 710-USB. And I found there is correct colours and less artifacts. About TBCs it is a question to Lord Smurf, however this question is answered in many threads before. I got those 2 Cypress cheap and, after recap (really poor capacitor soldering quality), they works about the same as green AVT-8710. I have black one too, it has no frame freezing or other problems commonly associated with black models, but in s-video it tends to simply hang on when poor quality signal is feed in, so no - black units should be avoided, but if you buy in ebay you can get the same black in green case (cheaters can simply swap boards and sell black unit as green). So TBC better buy here from LS, because otherwise you never know what you get so it is roulette. So you simply can pay twice.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riker0007

Anyone think the JVC HR-S7500u is good/comparable to the HR-S7600U

For PAL, 7500 does not have TBC.
For NTSC, 7500 is decent, but 7600, 7800, 7900 better.

Quote:

DVDoO HD+ (was expensive and used for an old HD projector)

That's a scaler, not a capture card.
And anyway, HD items always do poorly at consumer analog format (VHS, Hi8, etc) SD video.

Quote:

When I run it directly into the black magic intensity pro 4k via svideo it shows some drop frames.

BM cards also do very poorly at consumer analog SD. Not suggested, never have been. Dropped/black frames (even with TBCs!) are the #1 issue with BM, but there are multiple issues.

Quote:

When I run it into the dvdo HD+ (outputs via hdmi with no upscaling) it doesn't but it will only output 480p and I set everything to zero as far as contrast, brightness etc.

The frame drops are merely baked in with HDMI scalers. You have zero idea what's going in internally. Not suggested. It's a video meat grinder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by radiokom

I now experiment with Pinnacle 710-USB and I found it is better for s-video input than Blackmagic (all models) - as Lord Smurf and others are mentioned in many threads. Not because of dropping frames (with good frame TBC I never noticed good Blackmagic (there are many bad cards of the same model) drops frames by itself, but there are a lot of other imperfections. For Pinnacle 710-USB you need crossbar thing and capture in virtual dub.

IMPORTANT NOTE: It's not just any random 710-USB. There are versions. It's not something you can always "see" externally, or with packaging, but requires testing and board inspection. It takes me some effort to locate the good cards, "needle in a haystack". I provide those cards in the marketplace here. I do this complex step so you don't have to. I can't even explain my process well, because I still come across new/wrong versions. It's a moving target. What I charge is only street price when it was new (MSRP was higher, about $200).

Quote:

Panasonic NV-HS1000/Cypress CTB-531R TBC/Pinnacle-710USB and Panasonic NV-HS950/Cypress CDM-831TR TBC/multi format converter/Pinnacle-710USB.
When JVC HR-S7722 from VCRshop will arrive, I believe those 3 will be my main VCRs along with 3 NV-FS1 for rewind and special needs.

That could be a good setup for you, if conditions all good, all correct versions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riker0007

Thanks for your input. Which TBC would you suggest?

In 2025, it's not a case of "which TBC should I use", but rather "what TBC is available, made for consumer formats, that isn't flawed/junk". Because rattling off model numbers like "DataVideo TBC-1000" does you no good, as (1) those may not be available at the moment, or months/longer, (2) that specific model had mass caps issues in the past 5 years, time bombs if not re-capped, and even my own units were affected.

Quote:

And do you know if the pinnacle 710 is just as good or better than the io data?

IOData GV-USB2 is mediocre, not quite garbage like Easycap/Dazzle. It has lots of issues. There are very few people online who suggest those, but they're very vocal about how "good" it is. However, when legitimate concerns and issues come up, they dismiss it, and gaslight/blame you for the problems. All while being very rude and unpleasant to you. It has a very cult-like/meme-like following. Don't fall for the BS.

Quote:

I got the black magic years ago for 8mm film capture with a telecine unit and the dvdo was from my old crt projector back in the day

Those items were probably fine for those purposes. Now you're dealing with VHS, different needs entirely. Different tools required. Simple as that.

Quote:

and remembered it stated it had a Full frame tbc.

It does not.

Quote:

What do you think of using a VIDEONICS MX 1 ?

It only contains a weak line TBC. No frame. In terms of non-VCR line TBC(ish), ES10/15 does better, although the ES10/15 also adds noise/problems. All of those are non-ideal items, not actual TBCs. Use only in special circumstances, like anti-tearing for ES10/15.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ge0dude

I've read threads where LordSmurf advises against the videonics MX-1.
I've also read threads where people use them successfully, but with a suggested dvd recorder in front of it I imagine (for passthrough line-TBC)

What happened these was the MX-1 did near-nothing in the post-ES10/15 chain. They could have thrown it in a drawer, and gotten the same results from the mere ES10/15. The first line TBC in a chain "wins", and MX-1 was the loser there.

It's a mixer. Mix with it. Or don't use it. Simple results on that one.

Quote:

You could also use a Datavideo DVK-100 or DVK-200 as a poor mans TBC along with the panasonic DMR-ES10 or DMR-ES15. All these create a poor mans TBC.

Yes, ES10/15+DVK is what I refer to as a 99% TBC. There are drawbacks, quality reductions, fiddly instances, but it works reasonably well. It's not something I'd suggest for non-home users, nor lots of tapes (more than 50), nor any tapes with signal damage (nth gen, aka copies of copies).

Quote:

The DVK/MX-1 would be used as a "weak" frame TBC, and something like a Panasonic DMR-ES10 would be used as a line TBC, before the frame TBC. These are budget workflows. I cannot guarantee you'll get good results with the MX-1. Might make your picture look weird or something. I'd love to see a side by side comparison.

Maybe MX-1>DVK (in that order, not DVK>MX-1), maybe. But weak line, it will fail you often.

Quote:

Originally Posted by radiokom

About TBCs it is a question to Lord Smurf, however this question is answered in many threads before. I got those 2 Cypress cheap and, after recap (really poor capacitor soldering quality), they works about the same as green AVT-8710.

That was a great find. Most TV stations rid themselves of analog gear years ago, decades ago even.

Quote:

I have black one too, it has no frame freezing or other problems commonly associated with black models, but in s-video it tends to simply hang on when poor quality signal is feed in, so no - black units should be avoided

That "hanging" is the same as freezing/sticking. Same root problem. Too many flawed chips on the boards. Each successive Cypress version degraded from the last, and most black units are garbage.

Quote:

but if you buy in ebay you can get the same black in green case (cheaters can simply swap boards and sell black unit as green). So TBC better buy here from LS, because otherwise you never know what you get so it is roulette. So you simply can pay twice.

Yes, lots of shady people on eBay. Lots of swapping, lots of lying. "Tested" and "working" means nothing, and weasel terms like "pulled from a working environment" (ie, no idea on unit condition) are overused. For example, there's now people claiming to "rebuild" JVC VCRs (which isn't really possible), charging more than I do for my A-grade decks. Complete with misleading information, using non-suggested Blackmagic cards to "prove" his misinformation.

Funny enough, I recently had to re-case a mid-gen green unit in a black case. The green proc amp board was shot, irreparable. And the green case was cracked (which isn't that easy to do, as the plastic is rubbery). That unit wasn't used, it was abused. It's already en route to the new owner.

[radiokom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

IMPORTANT NOTE: It's not just any random 710-USB. There are versions. It's not something you can always "see" externally, or with packaging, but requires testing and board inspection.

Yes, this is a problem of all video capture cards. No idea why. Terrible quality control? Technology? In audio I always know if I buy Lynx Studio Technologies or Universal Audio device, no matter it is Lynx Two, Lynx AES16e (I prefer those together with Universal Audio 2192 ADC's) they are all the same and always 100% up to specs. You can buy with confidence even older cards - they all works, even Lynx One (good card, but works only under XP so they are cheap now). Best components always used and excellent quality control.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by radiokom

No idea why. Terrible quality control? Technology?.

That's how the semiconductor industry works. Chips are produced, ended. More ordered? Well, line has to be restarted, and engineers/techs can't help themselves from fiddling and twiddling, often screwing something up in the process. Software isn't too much different, just think how often Windows Update bricked computers that had been perfectly fine.

The IT world has never learned "ain't broke, don't fix it".

Sometimes more semiconductors are refused, "time to move on", so the OEMs (TBCs, capture cards, VCRs, whatever) have to locate replacements. Well, very often, those replacements are not at all the same, beyond a baseline. But details matter for image quality. Lots of devices have lots of chip changes, if the device is long-lived (more than the initial 6 months of release, often running for a year to a decade).

[radiokom]

I wonder why audio can keep standards, but video not? Yes, good audio devices cost not hundreds but thousands. I bought my 2 UA 2192 for about $4000 each when they was in production, and Lynx AES 16e for about $1500 20 years ago (used PCI version with cables for EUR 100 with cables few months ago, an it is up to specs, simply need PC with PCI slot!). They are still in production and cost about $900-1000 new. Why there are no professional video conversion gear what are up to specs? Even state archives use Pinnacle 710-USB! And ATI AIW! But they are consumer cards!