Late Japanase Victors (JVC) VCRs with TBCs?

[ge0dude]

I've seen Deter post a serviced NV-SV1 for about $1000 and praise it's picture and performance. These models get lots of praise, and in many ways can be superior to the U.S. models, as Japan saw many more releases than we did (they did invent the darn things.)

I just don't think your logic tracks. Mission impossible how?

[radiokom]

You wrote "I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here, just make comparisons for budget items".
Maybe explain, what is "budget item" in your opinion?

"These models get lots of praise, and in many ways can be superior to the U.S. models"

How it can be? Because US was major market for Japanese decks.

May you can describe those "many ways"? They are made in accordance with Shintoism rules?

[ge0dude]

Question 1: About $100-300 for a working TBC+3DNR late model Victor or Panasonic

Question 2: Actually Japan got much more than we did, simply because of regulatory hurdles. They had a dense and tech-savvy population with disposable income so they were frequently a testing ground for the latest and greatest technology to come out of Japan (arguably the world.)

Question 3: As I described earlier they got many releases we did not with different technology implementations. I'm not saying they are superior to U.S. Decks, but they have the potential to be. (I would very much like to see the NV-SV1 or and NV-SB900 against an ag-1980.) Just one example where it could be better, is that you can turn off the DNR on the later Panasonic Flagship Japanese models that never got U.S. Releases (NV-SV1, SV100, SVB1, SB900, etc.) You have 2 separate buttons for TBC and DNR. You also get improved DNR (2 fields vs 3D, less softening of the image) and you also get a new DAC, which is 10 bit vs the ag-1980's 8-bit. So you should get better color accuracy. Just a few examples on how it could possibly be better in some ways.

Question 4: I'm not familiar enough with Shintoism sorry, I'm not an expert on Japanese culture.

EDIT: Here is a thread of a long time active member comparing the models.

-- merged --

Quote:

Originally Posted by volksjager

I COMPARED THE TBC TO AN AG-1980 AND FOUND IT TO BE AS GOOD OR BETTER
i have a tape with bad time-base errors i use to test TBC's so far only an AG-1980 and a JVC SR-W5U have been able to play it cleanly
but the NV-SB900 also was able to play it perfectly

1 nice thing is the DNR can be turned off on the NV-SB900.
on the AG-1980 it is always on and cant be disabled
for some tapes you would like the DNR turned off

the TBC is definitely stronger than any of the JVC's ive tried (except the SR-W5U)

Here is my daily update (I really hope this is the last day, but I keep finding more!) I have about 15 or so to add to the list. The Assistant is nearing useless for this task at this point as these VCR's are just not well documented, it gave me the obvious candidates the first day (with many erroneous ones thrown in.) Which was a great starting point.

The rest I researched and verified myself, sometimes by literally translating the Japanese on the front panels. I suspect my list is probably at least 90% accurate. (I may have made dumb mistakes, like putting a VHS [not S-VHS] player on the list without specifying.)

Which brings me to my next point, I've added 2 VHS only players to the list, but interestingly enough they have the whole TBC + 3DNR of the era. Not suggested, but they're pretty cheap ( $7-50) and may be worth it just for those of you who are curious about how it performs, (I sure am curious, although it almost surely looks worse than a comparable S-VHS Player)

I've also attached an English manual for the European version of the HM-DR10000. You should be able to find the North American English versions of some of the other D-VHS VCR's here on this site, as some are the Japanese versions of the common suggested models.

LordSmurf, if you could please update the following into my initial post, I would be very grateful.
Ignored as requested few post later. -LS

[aramkolt]

I'm not sure that I've really seen the specs on the AG1980 vs others on how many bit ADC/DACs they have for the line/frame/field TBC, or for the JVCs for that matter.

I will say that on a vectorscope, it doesn't appear that the DACs are "low bit" which I believe shows up as disginguishable "squares" of intensity on the scope with very fine less intense borders. I've theorized that the smaller the squares, the higher the bit DAC in my mind anyway. The "borders" of the squares that don't have much intensity are essentially gaps that are missing in the chroma because anything there gets rounded up or down to a different value if the ADC/DAC doesn't produce values in that range. That's all speculation, but I've seen different sized "squares" on vectorscopes with different capture chains. Many times, you can't really see squares at all which to me suggests a 10 or more bit chain, but I don't know that for sure.

I think the way to test would be a shallow ramp pattern and then see if you get vertical bands of blockiness where similar colors will all get rounded to the same value, or possibly gaps on a histogram with the same pattern.

[ge0dude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

I'm not sure that I've really seen the specs on the AG1980 vs others on how many bit ADC/DACs they have for the line/frame/field TBC, or for the JVCs for that matter.

I will say that on a vectorscope, it doesn't appear that the DACs are "low bit" which I believe shows up as disginguishable "squares" of intensity on the scope with very fine less intense borders. I've theorized that the smaller the squares, the higher the bit DAC in my mind anyway. The "borders" of the squares that don't have much intensity are essentially gaps that are missing in the chroma because anything there gets rounded up or down to a different value if the ADC/DAC doesn't produce values in that range. That's all speculation, but I've seen different sized "squares" on vectorscopes with different capture chains. Many times, you can't really see squares at all which to me suggests a 10 or more bit chain, but I don't know that for sure.

I think the way to test would be a shallow ramp pattern and then see if you get vertical bands of blockiness where similar colors will all get rounded to the same value, or possibly gaps on a histogram with the same pattern.

Do you think you could we could use something like this recorded onto an S-VHS tape and captured on a 10-bit card?

-- merged --

Please ignore the last chart I posted, this next one is most up to date. Please and thank you. Done. -LS

I had to make an emergency fix and take out the nv-sv100 that somehow slipped through. I also added the 3-4 or so decks I had ready to go.

Also, according to this thread, Panasonics labeled "Super Drive" are Z-Mechanism Decks, so that covers a lot of the late Panasonics out of japan, that the U.S. got none of (including a Panasonic D-VHS, No fan!) I've attached the Z-Mechanism manual in one of the earlier threads. Also dropping a translated manual for the Panasonic D-VHS machine.

[radiokom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ge0dude

Also, according to this thread, Panasonics labeled "Super Drive" are Z-Mechanism Decks, so that covers a lot of the late Panasonics out of japan, that the U.S. got none of (including a Panasonic D-VHS, No fan!) I've attached the Z-Mechanism manual in one of the earlier threads. Also dropping a translated manual for the Panasonic D-VHS machine.

Panasonic "Super drive" is K-mechanism, used in NV-HS1000 and NV-HS-950 and, in my opinion, is the best Panasonic mechanism, at least for service. Previous was G mechanism - very good too. Z-mechanism is called "Super drive" too, but is complete crap, especially capstan motor. I do not know any Panasonic S-VHS with TBC and Z-mech. Maybe there are, I do not know. So when we talk about good Panasonic with "Super drive" we mean K-mech.

[enois]

Panasonic NV-HS 930 and Panasonic NV-HS 960 with TBC & DNR are Z-mechanism, probably even Panasonic NV-HS 860 is Z-deck but I'm not sure.

[radiokom]

I would avoid all Panasonic's with Z-mech. G-mechanism, if properly serviced, is good for tape rewind, it is gentle for tape. So for rewind I always use NV-FS1 or NV-FS100. For digitization NV-Hs1000 and 950 with K-mech. But in Z-mech all is crappy from capstan (you can get wobbly capstan and scratching flywheel very soon, because it is simple stud in nylon bush. Even pinch roller lacked ball bearing and there is plastic bush instead. No toothed timing belt, just square rubber belt. No, avoid them.

[ge0dude]

Thank you guys for the input. Would you be able to give a comparison between an AG-1980 and the HV-HS1000? We never got that release in North America. I notice it was too early to get 3DNR, and it may have DNR similar to the ag-1980? They both use K-Mechanism.

Also, would you categorize the Z-mechanism easier to fix? (Even if it's issues are numerous.) I notice it has about half the amount of parts and adjustments as many of the other Mechanisms. A much simpler design (which surely is causing all those issues.)

[radiokom]

If G-Mechanism is most robust and precise, all decks with it are hardest to disassemble and service. And because they are from 80s, they all should be restored, even if they are in mint condition. K-Mechanism is about the same performance, but simpler to service. It took me 20 minutes to replace broken loading motor link gear. It is not simpler to service Z mechanism because it is mission impossible. If capstan motor fails, find cheap donor, replace motor and wait when new motor flywheel start to scratch because of bushing wear. Especially if you use it for rewind. And speed stability is bad too. Yes, Z mech decks are a lot around, so to find a parts is not a problem. But why? K mech decks are a lot around too, so it is not a problem to find parts. It took me about 4 hours to completely disassemble and reassemble (except guides and heads of course aligned in factory) K mech someone messed around trying to "service" it. I took some donor parts from cheap VCR with the same mech, realigned gears and all was fine. If you do not need wonders, get K mech. Z is no, no. I am in PAL zone, so have no experience with AG-1980, but NV-HS1000 and 950 are decent S-VHS decks. NV-HS1000 has no DNR, but has AI, NV-HS950 has DNR. However it is a question when it helps. So the best if you have both to compare in every particular case.

[lordsmurf]

Post 1 updated with newest table.
I cleaned up the 1st post, and the 1st post table, so use that text as the new master.

I'm removing these USA models from the list:
- HR-DVS3 | HR-DVS3U | 2001 | TBC, 3-DNR, S-VHS + Mini-DV
- SR-V10 | SR-V10U | 2001
- SR-V101 | SR-V101US | 2002
- SR-VS10 | SR-VS10U | 2000 | MiniDV + S-VHS

DVS3 and V10 also have PAL versions, but the V10 PAL isn't the same as the V10 NTSC. You attached the PAL EU manual to the 1st post.

[ge0dude]

Thanks a bunch I really appreciate it, though I'm curious why you removed the DVS3? Like I said I was able to confirm the Japanese version exists. Is it because it's ill-advised to ship overseas?

[ge0dude]

This is the inside of the NV-SB800W, can anyone identify it as a K-Mechanism or a Z-Mechanism? I'm having a hard time telling them apart.

sb800w-internal.jpg

[enois]

To me seems K-deck.

[radiokom]

It is K. But remove that head cleaner.

[ge0dude]

Thanks for the replies guys. So I believe the NV-SB800W was released in September 1996 and the last Panasonic (with TBC) In Japan without "Super Drive" and perhaps the last with the K-Mechanism.

Preceding that (there may be others) are the NV-SB1000W released January 1995, and the NV-SB88W in December 1995. Both with TBC's and K-mechs, unknown Noise reduction (until I do more research.)

I have a handful of VCR's to add but I have not organized them yet and I'm trying to turn this more into a weekly/biweekly chart update since they're becoming harder and harder to find.

I'll drop a few translated manuals here, 2 of them are there to replace the 2 European version manuals I posted. They were much harder to find due to every result being for the European models. The third manual is for a Victor model I haven't posted on the chart yet.

[radiokom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ge0dude

Thanks for the replies guys. So I believe the NV-SB800W was released in September 1996 and the last Panasonic (with TBC) In Japan without "Super Drive" and perhaps the last with the K-Mechanism.

I believe they started call it "Super drive" with K mech in 90s. At least it is written on my NV-HS1000 and NV-HS950 This is only a banner what means nothing because it is written on all Panasonic from cheapest to decent, at least in Europe and remains on decks with Z mech

[ge0dude]

Thanks for all the info you've provided. I checked out the next releases in September 1997, and it looks like they have the Z-Mechanism. So I highly suspect the NV-SB800W was the last Panasonic (with TBC) released in Japan with the K-mechanism.

I want to thank whatever wonderful Japanese Citizen made this awesome VCR Wiki. It's not complete or anything, and it doesn't cover many of the VCR's I'm focused on. But it did have the NV-SB series history and specs.

I made a PDF of the relevant Panasonic NV-SB page and translated it into English, with some reformatting to make it less messy. I'm doing this for archive purposes, who knows when the website could go offline and the information is invaluable.

[radiokom]

Here are few pictures. From top there are NV-HS950, NV-HS100 with "Super drive" written and NV-FS1 - first Panasonic S-VHS deck (G mech). And how looks Z-mech and front of NV-HD620. That deck (along with one similar) I got for free many years ago and investigated that mech. One had scratching motor flywheel, so I was curious why, and disassembled to find reason. Then I found it is most crappy mechanics I have ever seen.

Super_drive.jpg

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Z-mech.jpg

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ge0dude

Thanks a bunch I really appreciate it, though I'm curious why you removed the DVS3? Like I said I was able to confirm the Japanese version exists. Is it because it's ill-advised to ship overseas?

I think we should just be prudent here.

- The DVS3 (and VS30) is available natively in North America and Europe both, and often in better shape than what we see offered out of Japan.
- There nothing unique to Japan about that model.
- And yes, shipping a large deck is a valid concern, as the bezel has lots of poor-fitting plastic clips that easily break. I've seen that panel arrive damaged too many times