Does Roland VC-30 have a line TBC?

[remynho]

The short version:
My testing of a Roland VC-30HD suggests that it has an undocumented, always-enabled line TBC. Has anyone else observed the same and/or know of a way to disable it?

The long version:
Recently I've been testing the the Roland VC-30HD that I purchased many years ago with the intention of using it for VHS captures. I've been making attempts to transfer over 100 tapes for 20 years and keep running into showstopping technical problems. I mostly have the VCR part sorted out at last, and now I think this capture device is presenting an unexpected problem.

Going direct from a VCR to the VC-30HD there wasn't any tearing at the top of the image. Since the VC-30HD turns off its output when the input signal is unclean (including rejecting VCR mute/inactivity signals) a frame TBC is needed between it and a VCR for uninterrupted captures of full tapes. I added a TBC-1000 and found that repeating testing with the same tape and VCR resulted in tearing at the top of the image.

Scouring the forum, as I have been for months, I saw lordsmurf's assertion in 2020 that it definitely wouldn't be the TBC-1000 causing the tearing. I PM'd him about two weeks ago to ask if that had changed since failures and malfunctions with Datavideo TBCs have increased so much in recent years, but so far I haven't heard back. In a discussion directly with Diopter_Doctor, his observation was that some TBC-1000 units may introduce tearing depending on the VCR that is used, so it was clear that more testing was required.

I tested with mid-'90s Toshiba and an '03 Mitsubishi VCRs, composite for both and also S-video for the Mitsubishi, and with a pre-recorded SP mode tape and an EP mode tape of TV recordings.

As before, there was no tearing when going directly from the VCR to the VC-30HD, and there was tearing with the TBC-1000 added.

I hooked up a much lower-end capture device directly to both VCRs for another comparison and found that a certain amount of tearing was present with both tapes, with and without the TBC-1000. After that I added a DMR-ES15 between the VCRs and the TBC-1000 and the tearing went away. That's good since it means the TBC-1000 isn't causing the tearing in this case, though it definitely has a luma stability problem that I posted about in an earlier thread.

Every indication seems to be that the Roland VC-30HD has a line TBC that is always enabled. The main manual for the device doesn't mention a TBC. Neither does the device's configuration tool or the separate manual for that tool. I have contacted Roland, but don't expect a response since this was discontinued quite some time ago.

Has anyone else observed the same behavior with the VC-30HD? I'd really like to be able to disable this TBC-ish behavior if that's possible.

[aramkolt]

I'll preface this with that I hadn't heard of this device before. I suspect that given that it outputs everything to a DV, HDV, or MPEG2 stream that it probably uses similar chips to other DV converters and DVD recorders of the day which do cure tearing to some degree, at least in some cases. I have put the ADVC-110 against a ADVC-300 (which are both DV converters) and the 300 (which does actually claim to have a TBC) does work better on unstable sources compared to the 110 to include line TBC ability. The limitation remains that the result will be a bit lossy through the VC-30 because it is compressing the video.

If you like the look of what you're getting through the VC-30, there's nothing wrong with that. I think a bit too much emphasis is put on "the best possible" vs "acceptable, straightforward, and available."

I think if you aren't having audio sync issues on longer captures and you like the quality of the video itself, it's reasonable to stick with that setup without necessarily feeling like you have to try a bunch of other devices. I think what trips a lot of us up is that SD video can only look as good as the source, and the sources these days may not be in the best condition. That, and we probably used to watch them on CRTs which just make low resolution content look a lot better to begin with.

DV should look better than the standalone converters like the Cloner Alliance products, clear click, etc since it does preserve interlacing and doesn't immediately compress to MP4. MPEG2 can look quite nice also if the bitrate is high enough. Looks like from the marketing materials of the VC-30 that the MPEG2 steam can go as high as 12Mbit/s for SD content which should be very nice if you can find the right utility to capture it. Most DVD recorders max out at 8Mbit/s which makes a DVD get about 1 hour of recording time.

[remynho]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

I'll preface this with that I hadn't heard of this device before. I suspect that given that it outputs everything to a DV, HDV, or MPEG2 stream that it probably uses similar chips to other DV converters and DVD recorders of the day which do cure tearing to some degree, at least in some cases. I have put the ADVC-110 against a ADVC-300 (which are both DV converters) and the 300 (which does actually claim to have a TBC) does work better on unstable sources compared to the 110 to include line TBC ability. The limitation remains that the result will be a bit lossy through the VC-30 because it is compressing the video.

Thanks for the response. Much of the hardware that you've mentioned dates back to early to mid '00s, which is when Roland's earlier capture device (VMC-1 from around 2005) was released. The VMC-1 supposedly had the same Panasonic chip as the ADVC-300. It had some kind of TBC functionality and the option to turn it off. I have one of those as well, also purchased many years ago, but haven't used it for anything yet. The VC-30HD is from a bit later and was released in 2011 so I would be surprised if it had the same Panasonic chip in it as the VMC-1 and ADVC-300 unless Roland was sitting on a bunch of old stock.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

If you like the look of what you're getting through the VC-30, there's nothing wrong with that. I think a bit too much emphasis is put on "the best possible" vs "acceptable, straightforward, and available."

I think if you aren't having audio sync issues on longer captures and you like the quality of the video itself, it's reasonable to stick with that setup without necessarily feeling like you have to try a bunch of other devices. I think what trips a lot of us up is that SD video can only look as good as the source, and the sources these days may not be in the best condition. That, and we probably used to watch them on CRTs which just make low resolution content look a lot better to begin with.

I'm mostly happy with the result, and the choice of the VC-30HD was after rejecting a number of more conventional capture devices over the years. As I mentioned though, it isn't without problems, and it having an apparent additional digital processing pass prior to compression could get messy once the full chain of VCR -> Line TBC -> Frame TBC -> Capture is in place, especially since I expect to also need at least one proc amp in there before the Line TBC (DMR-ES1x).

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

DV should look better than the standalone converters like the Cloner Alliance products, clear click, etc since it does preserve interlacing and doesn't immediately compress to MP4. MPEG2 can look quite nice also if the bitrate is high enough. Looks like from the marketing materials of the VC-30 that the MPEG2 steam can go as high as 12Mbit/s for SD content which should be very nice if you can find the right utility to capture it. Most DVD recorders max out at 8Mbit/s which makes a DVD get about 1 hour of recording time.

I would be doing MPEG-2 at 12 Mbps and have been doing that for testing so far. Capturing isn't a problem. The device can be reconfigured to pretend to be a digital deck and applications like CapDVHS can be used to save the MPEG-2 TS.

I don't intend to agonize over deinterlacing, AviSynth filters and post-capture compression/bitrate options. I went quite deep into all of that when this project began around 2005/2006 and while marginally better results are possible that approach just wasn't for me. On the capturing/encoding end of things I'm mostly looking for chroma that isn't badly misaligned, luma that isn't trashed (especially for bright content) and little or no added posterization. I prefer to have a choice of deinterlacing options in software players rather than locking down a specific method.

Plenty of that is straying off-topic though.

It's possible that the VC-30HD is doing some other digital processing beyond apparent line TBC behavior that I haven't noticed in my testing so far, so any info from other current or previous owners would be very welcome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by remynho

I have contacted Roland, but don't expect a response since this was discontinued quite some time ago.

Just an update to say Roland did respond today, but only to claim that they don't know and to refer me to the public manuals even though I had mentioned to them that the info wasn't in there. So, they can't be bothered to consult their internal documentation, which was about what I expected. Still had to ask them though just in case.

[lordsmurf]

Hello.

Replying as I read...

Quote:

Originally Posted by remynho

I PM'd him about two weeks ago to ask if that had changed since failures and malfunctions with Datavideo TBCs have increased so much in recent years, but so far I haven't heard back..

FYI, I'm not ignoring you, I've just been too busy to reply to non-urgent PMs/emails.

Quote:

Originally Posted by remynho

I've been making attempts to transfer over 100 tapes for 20 years and keep running into showstopping technical problems.

Yikes!

And yet, continuous errors are generally due to
- lack of proper gear
- inferior gear
- quality gear models that is not functioning correctly (and often "eBay specials")

Quote:

Scouring the forum, as I have been for months, I saw lordsmurf's assertion in 2020 that it definitely wouldn't be the TBC-1000 causing the tearing.
In a discussion directly with Diopter_Doctor, his observation was that some TBC-1000 units may introduce tearing depending on the VCR that is used, so it was clear that more testing was required.

I'll confer with D_D. It's still highly unlikely.

Quote:

I tested with mid-'90s Toshiba and an '03 Mitsubishi VCRs, composite for both and also S-video for the Mitsubishi,

Models?

Quote:

though it definitely has a luma stability problem that I posted about in an earlier thread.

Yep. That's why DVD recorders are not TBC replacements of any kind.

Quote:

Every indication seems to be that the Roland VC-30HD has a line TBC that is always enabled. The main manual for the device doesn't mention a TBC. Neither does the device's configuration tool or the separate manual for that tool.

Two options:
- Tear it apart, take photos. (IMPORTANT: That may or may not help.)
- Send it to me for validation with my not-nice testing methods, pay for return shipping.

Quote:

with the VC-30HD? I'd really like to be able to disable this TBC-ish behavior if that's possible.

If your goal is to disable, it's probably not an option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

I have put the ADVC-110 against a ADVC-300 (which are both DV converters) and the 300 (which does actually claim to have a TBC) does work better on unstable sources compared to the 110 to include line TBC ability.

The ADVC-300 implementation is so weak that it does almost nothing. And in many cases, it actually makes the video worse. Those early Panasonic line TBC chip attempts really sucked. The first known good version was used in the DMR-ES10, and not anything prior. (And arguably it degraded after ES10 as well.)

Quote:

If you like the look of what you're getting through the VC-30, there's nothing wrong with that. I think a bit too much emphasis is put on "the best possible" vs "acceptable, straightforward, and available."

I don't think "remove luma issues" and "resolve tearing" is a big ask.

Quote:

Originally Posted by remynho

dates back to early to mid '00s, which is when Roland's earlier capture device (VMC-1 from around 2005) was released. The VMC-1 supposedly had the same Panasonic chip as the ADVC-300.

It's also about implementation and firmware.

In the late 90s to early 2000s, Canopus was mostly a marketing whore company (in terms of their hardware), while their software was excellent (Edius, Procoder). Whereas Roland was a far more serious hardware maker, especially for musical hardware. So Canopus screwing it up, while Roland "got it right", is very unsurprising. But again, those early Panasonic chips were crap.

So how could Roland "get it right" (VMC-1) by using "the same" chip as the Canopus? Like everything else, there were versions, early and late production. The VMC-1 production probably overlapped with multiple chip generations. (A lot of people falsely assume companies buy all the supplies needed, but "just-in-time" is more likely.) I've come across 3 of "the good ones" in the past 15 years, and I kept 2 for myself. (Several other members here have come across the bad versions.)

It's an always-on feature ... with limitations.

Quote:

It had some kind of TBC functionality and the option to turn it off. I have one of those as well, also purchased many years ago, but haven't used it for anything yet. The VC-30HD is from a bit later and was released in 2011 so I would be surprised if it had the same Panasonic chip in it as the VMC-1 and ADVC-300 unless Roland was sitting on a bunch of old stock.

Those beta-quality ADVC-300 chips were already gone by 2005, much less 2011. Unfortunately, that also means you probably have some of the worse (weak) EOL chips.

Quote:

the full chain of VCR -> Line TBC -> Frame TBC -> Capture is in place, especially since I expect to also need at least one proc amp in there before the Line TBC (DMR-ES1x).

I think the VCR is your weak link. And your tapes may require AG-1980P (and a recapped unit).

Quote:

I don't intend to agonize over deinterlacing, AviSynth filters and post-capture compression/bitrate options. I went quite deep into all of that when this project began around 2005/2006 and while marginally better results are possible that approach just wasn't for me. On the capturing/encoding end of things I'm mostly looking for chroma that isn't badly misaligned, luma that isn't trashed (especially for bright content) and little or no added posterization. I prefer to have a choice of deinterlacing options in software players rather than locking down a specific method.

Fair enough, no problem that I see.

Quote:

It's possible that the VC-30HD is doing some other digital processing beyond apparent line TBC behavior that I haven't noticed in my testing so far, so any info from other current or previous owners would be very welcome.

It probably is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by remynho

I have contacted Roland, but don't expect a response since this was discontinued quite some time ago.
...
Just an update to say Roland did respond today, but only to claim that they don't know and to refer me to the public manuals even though I had mentioned to them that the info wasn't in there. So, they can't be bothered to consult their internal documentation, which was about what I expected. Still had to ask them though just in case.

I'm not aware of any company's modern iteration knowing anything that 90s-00s hardware, not even 10s in many cases (and that was in the late 10s too!). I had long discussions with several around 2017, TVone and DataVideo especially. None of them knew anything, any employees from "back then" were long gone (retired or worse). I felt ancient talking to many of them, especially the millennial kids (then in 20s-30s) that generally answered the phones.

Correct, they can't be bothered about old stuff. They want to sell you new stuff. On one hand, boo! But I get it. It's a business, not a free support line for legacy hardware. We're on our own. At least you have me, right? I share what I know.

[remynho]

Greetings lordsmurf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

continuous errors are generally due to
- lack of proper gear
- inferior gear
- quality gear models that is not functioning correctly (and often "eBay specials")

Lack of information, bad information and inappropriate recommendations were what kept setting me back. Nonsense about not needing a separate (frame) TBC if the VCR has a TBC. VCR recommendations solely focused on video quality and SP recordings when my main problems were with audio and EP recordings. The whole initial budget and then some went down the drain on equipment that couldn't play the tapes properly, at least not without modifications that I couldn't do.

The project was revisited every few years with similar results. It was only recently coming across posts by orsetto about Mitsubishi's late, low-end 448 and 748 models that seems to have me on the right track for getting the Hi-Fi audio to play without lots of loud buzzing. I had already owned the higher-end, same-era HS-U778 and HS-HD2000U from the initial round of VCR purchases. The HD2000U was alright for video, but trash for audio (buzzing like other VCRs, plus warbling). The 778 was less bad on the audio, but still not acceptable. JVC S-VHS and D-VHS decks were dead ends too.

The other recommendations by orsetto for Hi-Fi included the Panasonic 1970 (tried that in 2013, not great with my tapes), 1980 (not that desperate yet), JVC's DR-MV5 DVD-VCR combo (also tried in 2013, buzzing and dropping to the linear track all the time, terrible) and W-VHS decks (purchased one recently, step-down transformer arrived dead, so not tested yet).

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Two options:
- Tear it apart, take photos. (IMPORTANT: That may or may not help.)
- Send it to me for validation with my not-nice testing methods, pay for return shipping.

I've been looking for a spare since I bought the first one in anticipation of using it for captures, but aside from a bunch of places in Japan still renting them out they've been MIA for years. So, out of an abundance of caution it isn't being opened until I either switch to different capture hardware or use it and finish this project. A few other capturing/encoding devices are on the way for testing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I think the VCR is your weak link. And your tapes may require AG-1980P (and a recapped unit).

It certainly was. Now most of my focus is on the other puzzle pieces. If it comes down to only a handful of tapes still causing trouble I'd probably send those your way to be transferred instead of investing in a recapped 1980.

On the topic of the VC-30HD's meddling with inputs, I just learned that its AGC can cause quite a bit of trouble if the input isn't clean. I'll be posting a bit more about that in the thread on TBC-1000 luma stability.

[lordsmurf]

I still believe the root cause is VCR.

Mitsubishi decks are not great, especially non-TBC models. But the D-VHS decks have really narrow audio tracking quality, and more than once I've experienced (and read the same from others) where audio is lousy compared to most other high-end JVC/Panasonic VCRs (especially the AG-1980P).

- Panasonic AG-1970, not great, inferior to JVC and AG-1980P.
- JVC DR-MV5 DVD/VCR combo is a consumer VHS VCR, pretty blah. (JVC VHS VCRs are fairly crappy, unlike S-VHS VCRs.)
- JVC W-VHS (all Japanese VCRs) are simply unreliable at this late date, and somewhat always were.

When it comes to VCRs, I've never entirely agreed with orsetto. I really do not think his information is first-hand, but mostly sceond-hand (read info from others). On a side note, orsetto hasn't posted since 2022. His account supposedly logged in 2025, but not even posting once isn't like him. I'm afraid of the worst, not too different from sanlyn.

Yes, Roland gear is somewhat rare.

Yes, not opening gear is prudent (especially when you're not familiar with it).

Yes, AGC tends to be aggressive on DV boxes and DVD recorders -- which is sort of the same group as these Rolands. But it also heavily depends on the tape and the VCR.

[remynho]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I still believe the root cause is VCR.

Well any VCR without built-in TBC functionality can be considered an underlying cause of video tearing in a situation like this. As of today's testing of the W-VHS deck I'm up to three VCRs showing the same problems from the same tapes when no line TBC is used. Turning the W-VHS deck's TBC on helps a lot just as adding a DMR-ES15 or going directly into the VC-30HD helped a lot with the other two VCRs that are currently hooked up . The tapes, or at least the recordings on them, seem to be the true root cause of the tearing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Mitsubishi decks are not great, especially non-TBC models. But the D-VHS decks have really narrow audio tracking quality, and more than once I've experienced (and read the same from others) where audio is lousy compared to most other high-end JVC/Panasonic VCRs (especially the AG-1980P)..

I know those Mitsubishi decks aren't the best for video, but when all of the other decks tested so far botch the audio to the point that the video isn't pleasant to watch I'm willing to compromise.

The AG-1980 is the only remaining serious option that I'm willing to consider but haven't tested yet. Whether or not the info is accurate, for the Hi-Fi specifically both orsetto (public posts years ago) and the folks at TGrant Photo (via e-mail a year or so ago) seemed to feel that the 1970 and 1980 are comparable. It's out there as a last resort, but the 1970 already failed my tests and the Mitsubishis didn't, so I'll avoid the expense and pre+post-refurb failures of the 1980 if I can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

JVC W-VHS (all Japanese VCRs) are simply unreliable at this late date, and somewhat always were.

I was very much warned about their lack of reliability and wasn't surprised that results weren't stellar.

The newly-tested W-VHS deck has reasonably clean video with its TBC on, though it certainly needs a frame TBC after it. For the audio it is outputting lots of little clicking sounds that are mostly audible during quiet content.

Even with the audio problem, among the many other expenses involved with this project, about $250 to experiment with one seemed like a reasonable investment and I don't regret it. If it comes down to it, doing a bit of digital cleanup of clicking is vastly more practical than trying to salvage audio ruined by buzzing, warbling (probably what orsetto described as "twitchy" tracking) and/or drops to the linear track from most other VCRs. At least until the W-VHS deck self-destructs, of course.