Tevion ATI clone timing settings?

[Traderbam]

Hi, got a Tevion clone from LS (who seems to have gone off grid again). Can anyone please confirm the correct timing settings in VDub and any other necessary tweaks please for this device?

[aramkolt]

Hmm. What do you mean by timing settings exactly?

[Traderbam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

Hmm. What do you mean by timing settings exactly?

The timing settings in Virtualdub i.e. sync audio to video, video to audio, don't sync etc.

[cbracer]

Good timing for your questions. I just spent the day going through these settings myself, and here's what I've learned...... The correct settings depend on what you want to give up: video quality or audio quality, and how much time you want to spend fixing either one after capture. Which I don't want to spend time doing.

I've attached two photos, the original recommended settings according to the guide on this website and my settings I ended up on. (i don't know how to put the images into my reply so I've just attached them). The recommended settings won't drop or insert frames, it "corrects video timing" and only "sync audio to video by resampling the audio rate". In this situation the video stays in best quality and audio has a small range to correct itself. Hence lots of people have audio sync issues.

I searched and found everyone blaming the computer rather than understanding what actually happens during capture! Yes decades ago the computer was likely the problem. But now I'm capturing VHS / SD with 5% cpu usage using SSD's as storage and such so no it's not the computer.

I'm no expert, and I know those that are will tell you that you must use a TBC in the workflow so you have the best possible incoming stream and you then won't have audio sync issues. The video and audio becomes as good as possible, so you don't need extreme measures to fix sync issues. It is very impressive to see how good you can make VHS look when you have the right equipment, workflow, knowledge, and time.

But for me I don't have a TBC yet, so I had to find a solution. The solution is to allow the video quality to suffer along with some audio adjustments, in order to keep the audio in sync. I came across a vhs tape where the first couple of minutes started at 22 fps and worked up to the 29. The audio was out of sync from the start. I got fed up and tried AmaRecTV and that's where I saw hundreds of inserted frames but the audio sync was perfect. Many people blame audio sync on dropped frames but I have never had a dropped frame yet..... This is where I realized if you don't drop or insert frames, the audio sync will become off. So I went back to vdub and turned on drop frames and insert frames. Instantly frames got added just like AmaRecTV and my audio remained synced.

Yes in a proper professional workflow this would not be necessary, but its days before Christmas Holiday with my family and I don't have time to find a TBC and change my workflow just to digitize a few old crappy VHS tapes. Hope this helps.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traderbam

Hi, got a Tevion clone from LS (who seems to have gone off grid again). Can anyone please confirm the correct timing settings in VDub and any other necessary tweaks please for this device?

Busy times for me.

The main trick for a Tevion clone is to use VirtualDub2 or FilterMod. Yes, you read that correctly. All rules have exceptions, and this is the exception. The usually-based VirtuaDub 1.9.x has issues with audio preview, even on XP.

When choosing audio device from Audio menu in Capture mode, the default is wrong. Choose the other similar one -- "USB 23xx (WDM)", or whatever it is. Not at computer right now to give exact details. It's essentially the computer being told to access the stick audio with an alternative method.

I quickly grabbed an above image, drew 4 red boxes. Read instructions

tevion-timing.jpg

1: Always check these.
2: Resync, USB cards should always be "Do not resync"
3: "Auto disable" just reinforces "Do not resync", somewhat silly setting. "Correct video" needs to be UNchecked.
4: "Disable timestamps" or "Force audio" should only be enabled as needed -- never together. This can vary, and I can't access system to confirm at this moment. Start with all disabled. These settings are effectively just for choppy preview audio.

Most people don't realize that I'm not fond of VirtualDub, but it's the best tool we have. I would be thrilled to get together with a software programmer, to make something that is better -- though still based on VirtualDub. And it's actually something I've tried several times over the years, but never goes anywhere. People are always too fickle, and most disappear eventually, just a reality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbracer

I've attached two photos

Both images have a fatal problem.

Disabling the top two boxes in Timing settings essentially just disables dropped frames reporting. Just the reporting, not actual dropping of frames.

"If I close my eyes, you can't see me!"

Quote:

"sync audio to video by resampling the audio rate".

This skews audio. Chipmunks at times, or drunk Barry White at others.

Quote:

I searched and found everyone blaming the computer rather than understanding what actually happens during capture! Yes decades ago the computer was likely the problem. But now I'm capturing VHS / SD with 5% cpu usage using SSD's as storage and such so no it's not the computer.
I'm no expert, and I know those that are will tell you that you must use a TBC in the workflow so you have the best possible incoming stream and you then won't have audio sync issues.

That's correct. The problem of dropped frames usually originates in the analog video stream, not at the computer. Hence why TBCs needed, to correct the analog stream problems.

Quote:

But for me I don't have a TBC yet, so I had to find a solution. The solution is to allow the video quality to suffer along with some audio adjustments, in order to keep the audio in sync.

I mean, yes, this "works", but the more ideal super-budget option ($200 max) is the non-TBC frame sync of the ES10/15, with line TBC(ish) enabled depending on source deck.

Quote:

I got fed up and tried AmaRecTV and that's where I saw hundreds of inserted frames but the audio sync was perfect. Many people blame audio sync on dropped frames but I have never had a dropped frame yet.....

Drop/insert just isn't being reported now, based on your chosen settings. Audio sync issues are related to missing video data, while audio data is not missing. More audio, less video, it starts to not line up. So it;s almost always due to dropped frames, but other variables can exist.

Quote:

Yes in a proper professional workflow this would not be necessary, but its days before Christmas Holiday with my family and I don't have time to find a TBC and change my workflow just to digitize a few old crappy VHS tapes. Hope this helps.

Just hang onto the tapes for redo at a later date. For a quick rough transfer, to "see something" (anything), it suffices. Not great, just suffice.

[Traderbam]

Hi LS, when you are at a machine, can you please confirm the specifics for the Tevion in VDub2.

You mentioned before about needed to reduce brightness in the procamp. Histogram looks fine for me on the left side, but the right side contract was massively into red zone. Did you mean contrast needs dropped off the defaults?

Thanks

[lordsmurf]

PAL is mostly fine for card "proc amp" (mostly just card calibration), maybe ~-2 at most.
NTSC needs the ~-5.

I'll go snap my Tevion settings tonight, I have my dev/capture system available again.

[Traderbam]

Did you get a snap of settings please?

Do I need this audio hack for the unit you gave me? https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...ck-tevion.html

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traderbam

Did you get a snap of settings please?

Do I need this audio hack for the unit you gave me? https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...ck-tevion.html

Audio hack is not needed for the Tevions.

I was with family at the hospital for much of the past week, so only now getting back to forum tasks.

[Traderbam]

Any update please @LordSmurf

-- merged --

Another few weeks of radio silence from @LordSmurf. Why would anyone buy anything from this marketplace if it takes months to get after sales questions answered, yet any questions pre-purchase are answered almost immediately?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traderbam

it takes months to get after sales questions answered

This is a tech question, not a sale question.

And my answer in post #5 above, from back in Dec, perfectly match my screen caps below.

Off-hand, at that time, I could not remember which of the two options was needed for correct audio (time stamp vs. clock), but a simple test of each would have shown which one caused audio chop/stutter (and thus was the wrong setting).

But you need to also note, these can change some depending on an exact system.

For example, my audio card has "what you hear", and the Tevion audio has a separate Windows OS control. So in that scenario, you'll here echoing audio, because both are simultaneously tapping into audio, generally with a slight temporal phase shift.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traderbam

Hi LS, when you are at a machine, can you please confirm the specifics for the Tevion in VDub2.

I was not able to access my dev/testing system for a while there. The motherboard is failing, boot drive is stubborn. So I'll be replacing it soon.

Tonight, I finally got a decent boot session, and backed up some settings.

For the Tevion, here you go:

tevion-vdub2-timing.png

Note that the radio button for Resync mode, the 3 options shown, does not matter, because the Do Not Resync check box is selected. You should do it anyway, just in case, but my setting was just defaulted with the check box.

You must be logged in to view this content; either login or register for the forum. The attached screen shots, before/after images, photos and graphics are created/posted for the benefit of site members. And you are invited to join our digital media community.

The WDM audio connection is used. This is the main difference between VirtualDub 1.9.x and VirtualDub2, this one setting/option.

tevion-vdub2-audio.png

Again, for clarification, for the ATI 600 USB, Tevion "clone" version, you use VirtualDub2. (In general, yes, use VirtualDub 1.9.x, and never use VirtualDub2. This is an exception to that rule. All rules have exceptions, but exceptions never overrule general rules.)

And Tevion uses the generic eMPIA bridge drivers, rather than custom drivers like ATI or Hauppauge.

[Traderbam]

I will have to have a play with these settings as from my perspective the device presents as two separate drivers to Windows (a DirectShow and a WDM). If this article is indeed correct, then the "automatically disable resync when integrated a/v is detected" won't actually do anything according to this VirtualDub article https://documentation.help/VirtualDub/c-timing.html

This would be similar to my Hauppauge USB-Live2 where I need to use the "sync audio to video" with the "correct video timing" option to allow VDub to line up the two separate streams.

Does anyone know for sure what the "Ignore video timestamps from capture device" means in practice? Is this more or less ignoring anything from the card, and using some built-in PC clock for timing?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traderbam

according to this VirtualDub article

That article is vastly outdated, even for VirtualDub 1.9.x from 15+ years ago.

Quote:

I will have to have a play with these settings as from my perspective the device presents as two separate drivers to Windows (a DirectShow and a WDM).

Use WDM.

Quote:

If this article is indeed correct, then the "automatically disable resync when integrated a/v is detected" won't actually do anything

This is somewhat correct. This is a bad UI design, as it doesn't "gray out" settings after the checkbox is ticker. You can still see the radio settings for settings that no longer matter.

Quote:

This would be similar to my Hauppauge USB-Live2 where I need to use the "sync audio to video" with the "correct video timing" option to allow VDub to line up the two separate streams.

By doing this, you're creating issues with audio and/or video integrity. This is card limitation. Live2 is not suggested, for many reasons.

Quote:

Does anyone know for sure what the "Ignore video timestamps from capture device" means in practice? Is this more or less ignoring anything from the card, and using some built-in PC clock for timing?

Sort of. I'd have to re-read VirtualDub documentation from 20 years ago, and see where the feature was added. "Mr. VirtualDub" would often discuss a feature in detail in an initial feature doc, and then never again. Lots of IT has the problem, as if everybody always has time to tediously re-read docs from day one. At least his site is still around, so you can spend an afternoon reading it all. He was always pretty bad at documentation.

[Traderbam]

The device I see for audio is "USB Audio Device (WDM)" - there is no USB Emp audio like your screenshots. Do I need specific EMPIA drivers?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traderbam

The device I see for audio is "USB Audio Device (WDM)" - there is no USB Emp audio like your screenshots. Do I need specific EMPIA drivers?

Need eMPIA? Not necessarily.
- Which OS are you on?
- Which driver did you install?

"USB Audio Device (WDM)" is probably correct. As mentioned, driver/OS variants can cause slightly different timing settings needs.

Don't forget that this card hooks into Windows audio settings, so you control the recording level in there. It defaults to 100%, which you don't want (due to distortion risks). It needs to be more like 66%, though it can heavily depend on the tape if still too loud or too low (but always err on the side of too low).

[Traderbam]

Just remembered it was the VIDBOX03 drivers I'd installed which were recommended elsewhere on this forum. Using Win10.

Just captured 1 hour of tape now, 0 inserts or drops using the sync audio to video, and the correct video timing option. Sync never deviated more than a few ms in the virtualdub window. Using a CMD TBC from yourself.

I don't remember exactly but using the disabled integrated option gave me a ton of inserts on starting capture. I think this really isn't classed as single a/v clock like the usb-710 would be.

[Traderbam]

With these audio settings from LS above, I noticed that the audio seems to be very hot so I need to turn down the Line recording device to about 3 otherwise I get audio clipping.

In VDub2 I can choose either Line (USB Audio Device) or USB Audio Device (WDM) - I am using the latter as advised by LS. Should I be using Line (USB Audio Device) instead? I want to avoid the audio clipping obviously.