Which capture card works with Hi8 PAL camcorder?

[alpine2]

i am attempting to digitize footage from a Samsung VP-W60 Hi8 PAL camcorder. (I am new to analog video capture)

The camcorder outputs analog composite video (PAL). I am using a DIGITNOW USB capture device with red/white/yellow RCA inputs. The RCA cables (composite video + stereo audio) are connected to the DIGITNOW device, and the AV plug is connected to the camcorder’s AV output.

The captured image displays incorrect color reproduction. The video often appears nearly black and white , with weak or unstable color information. This suggests a possible PAL decoding/signal compatibility issue
сould this be a limitation of the digitnow capture device when handling PAL composite signals?

If so, which capture device or setup would reliably support Hi8 PAL composite output and provide stable, accurate color reproduction? Ideally, something similar to the digitnow, preferably with a screen
I would really appreciate any help

[aramkolt]

Most likely any device that supports PAL captures should work. If you are looking for a standalone box with a screen, the Cloner Alliance products should fit the bill. Keep in mind that those might do a sort of zoom crop and you'll lose a bit of the peripheral image on all sides. You can definitely do better with capturing interlaced via a more recommended method, but none of those are going to have a built in screen and be standalone devices. DV capture devices usually support both PAL and NTSC like those from Canopus, but many of those need capacitor changing these days and you'll need a computer with Firewire. Some DVD recorders might also support PAL and that's a decent way to capture and would probably give better results than a lot of the other "easy" options out there.

[timtape]

Many DVD recorders were made for PAL. In countries which used the PALsystem, PAL gear was of course dominant.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

Most likely any device that supports PAL captures should work. If you are looking for a standalone box with a screen, the Cloner Alliance products should fit the bill.

That's terrible advice. I expect better.
- To say that any device will "work" is a very loose definition of what "works" means.
- Those Cloner Alliance boxes are not any better than DIGITNOW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alpine2

i am attempting to digitize footage from a Samsung VP-W60 Hi8 PAL camcorder. (I am new to analog video capture)

Converting video has a simple recipe:
- quality VCR or camera
- some form of TBC is required (from specific DVD recorders on the low-end, to actual TBCs at the mid/high end)
- quality capture card

Quote:

The camcorder outputs analog composite video (PAL).

That fine, most do. s-video better, but with Hi8 isn't often not a huge leap in quality, unlike having a quality capture card and TBC(s) in place.

Quote:

I am using a DIGITNOW USB capture device with red/white/yellow RCA inputs. The RCA cables (composite video + stereo audio) are connected to the DIGITNOW device, and the AV plug is connected to the camcorder’s AV output.
The captured image displays incorrect color reproduction. The video often appears nearly black and white , with weak or unstable color information. This suggests a possible PAL decoding/signal compatibility issue
сould this be a limitation of the digitnow capture device when handling PAL composite signals?

Yes, those "DIGITNOW" cards are just rebadged/rebranded Chinese junk. That's what you will find with all of the new cards now sold on Amazon/eBay/etc. What you should seek are the out-of-production/older cards that had quality. When it comes to video capture, "they don't make them like they used to" is very true.

What sort of computers do you have, or can you have, for using to convert video?
Or must you have a non-computer method? (That will limit options severely.)

Quote:

Ideally, something similar to the digitnow, preferably with a screen I would really appreciate any help

This will be a problem. Those "with screen" units are all dreadful, all low-end garbage. It mushes the already-soft image quality, screws up colors, and causes ghosting/jaggies issue from forced poor deinterlacing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

Many DVD recorders were made for PAL. In countries which used the PALsystem, PAL gear was of course dominant.

DVD recorders can be fine, but usually have issues and quality loss in other ways. It's often just "least worst", not best. For the moment, I think we need to simply shift this OP back into using a quality card, not swap from junky capture cards to compressed DVDs.

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by alpine2

i am attempting to digitize footage from a Samsung VP-W60 Hi8 PAL camcorder. (I am new to analog video capture)...The camcorder outputs analog composite video (PAL).

Does your Samsung have an s-video output connection of some sort? It should have as Hi8 format required an s-video output connection to maintain the higher than Video 8 picture quality of Hi8. What does the Samsung owner's manual say?

[aramkolt]

Sounded like the original poster was already happy with the quality of the capture from the digitnow since he's looking for something similar that just has the color part fixed which is why I mentioned that just about anything should do about as well as that (which admittedly probably isn't great). I did mention that more recommended methods that do interlaced capture will produce better results, but in terms of budget decent results that DV or DVD recorder would be the lowest learning curve and lowest cost options for a beginner.

Also, the camera mentioned isn't Hi8, it's Video8, so probably no S-Video output option there.

Looking at the actual Digitnow products, it looks like they all support PAL, so it could be that the original poster is trying to play a Hi8 tape in a Video8-only camera which I'm not sure what the result would actually look like, but that could explain why there are color issues regardless of the capture device.

Easy test would be to hook the composite output to any monitor that accepts PAL composite (like a TV) and see if the same color issues are present there as well, and if so, the color issue isn't due to the capture card.

Usually, you could just look at the screen on the camera to see if it is playing appropriately, but the VP-W60 is so low end that there is no color screen on the unit itself, just a black and white viewfinder that may or may not show anything during playback.

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

Also, the camera mentioned isn't Hi8, it's Video8, so probably no S-Video output option there.

The OP said it is Hi8. Is this incorrect?

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

The OP said it is Hi8. Is this incorrect?

But yes playing a Hi 8 recorded tape on a Video 8 player will give weak colour.

[alpine2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

What sort of computers do you have, or can you have, for using to convert video?
Or must you have a non-computer method? (That will limit options severely.)

I need a portable solution that mounts to the camera and records directly to SD card. I want to use it outside, not connected to a PC
If nothing works for this camera, I would be happy if you could suggest another camera that can do portable tapeless recording

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

The OP said it is Hi8. Is this incorrect?
But yes playing a Hi 8 recorded tape on a Video 8 player will give weak colour.

And yes, I said it wrong, my camcorder is not Hi8 but Video8.

my camcorder is Video8. but cassete in camcorder SONY PAL Hi8 and as I know, my dad always recorded on them and everything was fine.

[radiokom]

In my opinion even Video8 playback from good Digital8 camera what support Hi8/Video8 playback even through firewire with all problems (including color) would be better than any combination with this camera + bad capture devices. This simply is dead horse. I believe you should decide - to acquire all necessary equipment and do it right or send cassettes to someone who can digitize them professionally.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by alpine2

I need a portable solution that mounts to the camera and records directly to SD card. I want to use it outside, not connected to a PC

No such thing exists -- at least not anything with quality. You're stuck with that miserable DIGITNOW or ClearClick type "quality" (term used loosely).

A DVD recorder is probably your best non-computer method. It won't screw up the quality anywhere near as bad as those low-quality "cheap" (quality, not price) junk solutions.

No effort = no quality.
No money (cheap solution) = no quality.
That's just how it goes. With anything, really, not just video.

[alpine2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

No such thing exists -- at least not anything with quality. You're stuck with that miserable DIGITNOW or ClearClick type "quality" (term used loosely).

A DVD recorder is probably your best non-computer method. It won't screw up the quality anywhere near as bad as those low-quality "cheap" (quality, not price) junk solutions.

No effort = no quality.
No money (cheap solution) = no quality.
That's just how it goes. With anything, really, not just video.

Thank you for your help! can you recommend a DVD recorder that will work with my camcorder please?

Quote:

Originally Posted by radiokom

In my opinion even Video8 playback from good Digital8 camera what support Hi8/Video8 playback even through firewire with all problems (including color) would be better than any combination with this camera + bad capture devices. This simply is dead horse. I believe you should decide - to acquire all necessary equipment and do it right or send cassettes to someone who can digitize them professionally.

Could you please recommend a good setup or combination of equipment or smth that works well? Id really appreciate any advice

Im completely new to this and don’t really understand much about this

[radiokom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by alpine2

Could you please recommend a good setup or combination of equipment or smth that works well? Id really appreciate any advice

Im completely new to this and don’t really understand much about this

You can search this forum, there is all information you need. The first read basics. They are the same, no matter VHS or Video8. For quality digitization you need goof Hi8 camcorder (from recommended list) with built in line TBC and s-video out, external TBC and good capture card with PC.

But it cost more than EUR1000. It may be up to 5000 for hi end setup. So maybe you should consider to send your cassettes to professional for digitization. It will be cheaper and you get the best possible quality.

[lordsmurf]

If you're trying to:
(a) use non-computers means
(b) go as cheap as possible

Then you need to locate passthrough model Panasonic recorders (like ES10, ES15), or a few other select/specific PAL model recorders from Sony and Pioneer. It has both line TBC(ish) and records to disc. Cost there is usually under 200€.

Only record in XP mode of best quality, SP mode for compressed quality. Anything more is awful quality on these specific brand machines.

If you're not opposed to doubling the price, then use the Panasonic/etc just as passthrough, and the get an LSI-based JVC recorder for the actual recording. JVC DR-M10, DR-M100. Those don't have TBC, but those do have the cNR that removes color noise that infests home format tapes. So another 200€ or so.

And 400€ total for a decent/quality capture setup is extremely reasonable.

This is a setup where frame TBC is probably not needed, though frame TBC always helps. This is where 1000€+ comes into play, up to 5000€ for the bet gear. And some people need that, and I suggest it in those instances. But [probably not here.

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by alpine2

And yes, I said it wrong, my camcorder is not Hi8 but Video8.

My camcorder is Video8. but cassete in camcorder SONY PAL Hi8 and as I know, my dad always recorded on them and everything was fine.

Thanks for that. Just to elaborate, Hi 8 was an improved picture quality version of the earlier Video 8. A Hi 8 camera also plays Video 8 fine, but a Video 8 camera cannot properly play Hi 8 tapes because it wasnt designed to play that later format. An obvious giveaway is weak colour. So there's a good chance the weak colour you experience is solely or mostly due to this. The very best capture card or DVD recorder cannot bring back that lost colour. It has to be there in the first place. If you want the proper colour in the tapes, a Hi 8 or Digital 8 camera/deck is needed. I believe some but not all Digital 8 cameras also play the older Video 8/Hi 8 recorded tapes.

The 8mm tapes were basically the same. The difference here is not in the physical tapes themselves but whether they were recorded on a Video 8 or Hi 8 camera.

Hope this helps.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

. I believe some but not all Digital 8 cameras also play the older Video 8/Hi 8 recorded tapes.

Many Digital8 cameras also pre-compress to DV output, even for analog output. That will also result in reduced/"weak" colors.

Ideally, always play Hi8 tapes in Hi8 camcorders. (There's also Hi8 decks, but those are also not ideal.)
D8 for D8
But Video8 tapes on Hi8 camera, due to better quality output (mostly due to line TBCs).

[BW37]

To the OP: What is your actual use for this camcorder? This is not clear to me.

Are you trying to “capture/digitize” previously recorded 8mm tapes or are you trying to create new digital video using this old camcorder as the source and thus get that “vintage” video look in new recordings?

BW

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

...Ideally, always play Hi8 tapes in Hi8 camcorders...

This seems misleading. Hi 8 is "high band". I believe it used different heads and circuitry than Video 8. To properly extract the picture on the tape a Hi8 recorded tape must be played on a Hi8 (high band) player or various Digital 8 players.

We can go up a level and play a Video 8 tape on a Hi 8 player, but not down a level by playing a Hi8 recorded tape on a Video 8 player. If we do, the effect will be much degraded picture, far worse than the degradation from converting to DV. The original Hi8 recorded tape will now look worse than a Video 8 recorded tape played back on a Video 8 player.

This really is a case where we must use the proper high band player (with S-video connection to our capture card or DVD recorder) because it's a high band recording.

[radiokom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

This seems misleading. Hi 8 is "high band". I believe it used different heads and circuitry than Video 8. To properly extract the picture on the tape a Hi8 recorded tape must be played on a Hi8 (high band) player or various Digital 8 players.

We can go up a level and play a Video 8 tape on a Hi 8 player, but not down a level by playing a Hi8 recorded tape on a Video 8 player. If we do, the effect will be much degraded picture, far worse than the degradation from converting to DV. The original Hi8 recorded tape will now look worse than a Video 8 recorded tape played back on a Video 8 player.

This really is a case where we must use the proper high band player (with S-video connection to our capture card or DVD recorder) because it's a high band recording.

Yes, but you can use Hi8 tapes in Video8 camera for Video8 recording. So Hi8 cassette does not mean it contains Hi8 record. Hi8 tape can be used for Digital8 recording too (I believe tape is the same in D8 and Hi8 cassettes). So you never know. If there is no picture from Hi8 camcorder, try Digital8

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

This seems misleading.

I can see that. So I shall re-state.

Best practices =
- Hi8 recorded tapes in Hi8 camcorder. Not ideal in Digital8 camcorder. Never in Video8 camcorder
- Video8 recorded tapes in Hi8 camcorder.
- Digital8 recorded tapes in Digital8 camcorder

Note that I wrote "recorded tapes", as the 8mm tapes are actually somewhat universal. It's the recording that makes the main difference, not the tape itself.

[alpine2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BW37

To the OP: What is your actual use for this camcorder? This is not clear to me.

Are you trying to “capture/digitize” previously recorded 8mm tapes or are you trying to create new digital video using this old camcorder as the source and thus get that “vintage” video look in new recordings?

BW

I am trying to capture video onto an SD card