Hi8 image alternates blue and static, but sound ok?

[SHGMC_2]

Hey all.

So, see the attached video to see what I mean.

The video is alternating between the blue and the snow as you can see and as indicated in the thread title. But there's audio as you can see in the clip as well.

I tried with a known working Hi8 tape and picture and sound appeared correctly.

I'm speculating that the tape has gone bad _or_ is an LP mode that was only meant to be playback on the original camera it was recorded with.

Am I correct in the assumption? That's the first time I'm seeing this with these tapes and the device I'm using never experienced issues before. Made 100% sure that no cable or the capture chain were at fault either.

For reference, capture material:
Capture: ATI TV Wonder 600
TBC: Datavideo TBC-3000
Camera: Sony Handycam CCD-TRV87
Software: VDub 1.9.11 on Windows 7 HP x64

[lordsmurf]

Hmmm... that looks like a VCR on tuner, trying to pick up channel that doesn't exist.
But this is a camera, so ... hmmm.

Being HI8, the best guess is that the tape is just dirty. FF in that camera, then REW. Of course, that will make the heads dirty for the next tape. This is why I have extra blank Hi8 tapes, to use a cleaner fodder. This is a known problem with this format.

It could be a bad video recording, but it's less likely right now.

[SHGMC_2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Hmmm... that looks like a VCR on tuner, trying to pick up channel that doesn't exist.
But this is a camera, so ... hmmm.

Being HI8, the best guess is that the tape is just dirty. FF in that camera, then REW. Of course, that will make the heads dirty for the next tape. This is why I have extra blank Hi8 tapes, to use a cleaner fodder. This is a known problem with this format.

It could be a bad video recording, but it's less likely right now.

Thanks for the quick reply LS.

Unfortunately, we don't have blank Hi8 tapes lying around. At least I don't think.

The client arrived with a batch of 19 of them. I guess I can FF and REW it a bunch (I'll still wait to see what you think) but I'm afraid I'll heck it up for the tapes I'll have to do in the future.

EDIT: If we were to buy new blank Hi8 for this purpose, do I need to FF then REW a whole lot with the new tapes to clean them or just a few seconds is fine?
EDIT 2: We found used but empty tapes. I guess we can try with those for now. (We are in archival so the chance of those being dirty when they are in controlled rooms is low - at least I think)
EDIT 3: All tapes were like that... Like, they were all in their cases and there wasn't any apparent dirt besides storage.

[lordsmurf]

Sometimes you have to reject client tapes for the good of your own gear.

And even if you do them, it should cost extra. The tapes having problems is not your problem. That's not what you signed on for.

[SHGMC_2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Sometimes you have to reject client tapes for the good of your own gear.

And even if you do them, it should cost extra. The tapes having problems is not your problem. That's not what you signed on for.

Yes. We intend to talk to the client about them. They will most likely be disappointed but what can you do... That's really too bad because I bet there were a lot of memories for that client on those tapes.

[Aya_Rei]

My guess is maybe these tapes were recorded on a misaligned camcorder, sadly your only option is to do manually adjustment by getting into the camcorder's internals.

Video8 doesn't have manual tracking like VHS.

[SHGMC_2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

My guess is maybe these tapes were recorded on a misaligned camcorder, sadly your only option is to do manually adjustment by getting into the camcorder's internals.

Video8 doesn't have manual tracking like VHS.

Could have been. But that's waaaaaaaaay out of my league.

Also, I checked the audio of the AVI I was recording in the clip in the OP. It was just static. So, nothing can be saved from this.

[Aya_Rei]

Wait a minute, maybe these recordings were done a Digital8 camcorder and therefore need a Digital8 camera to play them back properly, not Hi8

[SHGMC_2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

Wait a minute, maybe these recordings were done a Digital8 camcorder and therefore need a Digital8 camera to play them back properly, not Hi8

Doubtful. Those were comissionned by just a regular someone. That's not from a professional that used professional gear. All tapes have either "8mm" or "Hi8" written on them. None also mention the "Digital 8mm" either. You couldn't just put a regular 8mm or Hi8 tape in a Digital8 camcorder, right?

EDIT: Reading Wikipedia's article on Digital 8, the tapes were interchangeable after all. So they recorded Digi8 on 8mm/Hi8 tapes. We don't have Digi8 camcorders to verify. First time we saw them since we started our digitalization services in 2022. Thanks Aya_Rei. That seems by far the most plausible thing of them. If it were misaligned, we'd see _some_ sort of image but we don't.

[Aya_Rei]

No problem, yeah it sucks how you really can't tell if a recording is Hi8 or Digital8 unless you put the tape in a Digital8 Camcorder, I believe they have different on screen logos depending on the recording format.

There were Digital8 only tapes, but I know High8 was advertised to work with Digital8 camcorders, which they do at the cost of half the run time.

Had this exact same problem, client's tapes were all Hi8/Video8 recordings except for one Hi8 tape that was a Digital8 recording, sadly was unwatchable due to probably dirty heads from the camera I was using, I didn't bother to do it because 1. It was just some hockey match and 2. Felt like it wasn't worth it getting my Digital8 camcorder repaired just for one tape.

The same problem happened when played back on a Hi8 camcorder, static + blue screen and static audio.

[BW37]

"Wait a minute, maybe these recordings were done a Digital8 camcorder" BINGO (I think...)

Digital8 was not a professional format. Quite the contrary, it was a Sony's attempt to extend the life of their 8mm tape systems. It used standard 8mm video tapes, either video8 or Hi8 as the media but recorded onto them the same digitized video as is used on MiniDV camcorders etc. In fact Sony handicapped their Digital8 camcorders with low resolution CCDS and lower quality lenses that they used on their MiniDV camcorders so as not to compete directly with them.

Here's a discussion on the subject.

If you are going to be in the business of transferring videos for customers, you will need some way to transfer Digital8 (D8) tapes. D8 camcorders are relatively easy to come by and most can also be used to transfer Video8 and Hi8 tapes as well. check out the recommendations here.

BW

PS: Sorry for the delayed response. I had to take a phone call half way through creating my response.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

Wait a minute, maybe these recordings were done a Digital8 camcorder and therefore need a Digital8 camera to play them back properly, not Hi8

Digital8 audio doesn't play in an analog Hi8 camera. Therefore, not a D8 tape.

[Aya_Rei]

OP said the audio was just static, that's what a digital8 recording sounded like to me when played back on a Hi8 camcorder.

Hope the OP can find a Digital8 camcorder and test to see if they are Digital8 recordings before throwing in the towel.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

OP said the audio was just static, that's what a digital8 recording sounded like to me when played back on a Hi8 camcorder.

Hope the OP can find a Digital8 camcorder and test to see if they are Digital8 recordings before throwing in the towel.

Ah, I missed this new addition:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SHGMC_2

Also, I checked the audio of the AVI I was recording in the clip in the OP. It was just static.

I was referring to the first post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SHGMC_2

But there's audio as you can see in the clip as well.

I'm still not 100% sure that points to Digital8, but it could.

And then, referring back to this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SHGMC_2

That's not from a professional that used professional gear.

Just to reiterate, Digital8 was a consumer digital SD format, Sony's quick lazy answer to MiniDV.

And the "lazy" was from:

Quote:

All tapes have either "8mm" or "Hi8" written on them. None also mention the "Digital 8mm" either. You couldn't just put a regular 8mm or Hi8 tape in a Digital8 camcorder, right?

8mm Sony tapes cold be used for Video8, Hi8, or Digital8. It was similar to how VHS and S-VHS tapes were (mostly) interchangeable. The different in tape quality determined how well the recordings held up.

Quote:

We don't have Digi8 camcorders to verify. First time we saw them since we started our digitalization services in 2022.

Buy one. They're cheap. I mostly use a Sony DCR-TRV320. You can find those on eBay for about $150-200 USD. Unlike VCRs, TBCs, camcorders tend to be safe buys. Just look for an auction that is complete, lots of accessories. I avoid "camcorder sellers", preferring to find generic "flippers", as those cameras usually come from garage sales, from original owners, with low usage. The "camera sellers" tend to have abused gear, lots of sell, re-buy, re-sell, without any real maintenance between sales, not even a good proper cleaning. (By comparison, when I do buybacks of my own VCR/TBC gear, I'll re-refurb it.)

Quote:

If it were misaligned, we'd see _some_ sort of image but we don't.

Nope, not necessarily. You could get bad image with static.

[SHGMC_2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Buy one. They're cheap. I mostly use a Sony DCR-TRV320. You can find those on eBay for about $150-200 USD. Unlike VCRs, TBCs, camcorders tend to be safe buys. Just look for an auction that is complete, lots of accessories. I avoid "camcorder sellers", preferring to find generic "flippers", as those cameras usually come from garage sales, from original owners, with low usage. The "camera sellers" tend to have abused gear, lots of sell, re-buy, re-sell, without any real maintenance between sales, not even a good proper cleaning. (By comparison, when I do buybacks of my own VCR/TBC gear, I'll re-refurb it.)

I'm not the one who decides the purchases lol.
But I guess if the client really want them now we know what they are, I guess they could fund it. I left a message to the team before leaving today that I guessed what they are but I won't go back to office until next Monday.

If they didn't talk to the client yet, I'd suggest the team to try to ask them if they want to fund the camera if the content is really important for them. Otherwise, I can only forward the camera model to my boss and cross my fingers.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SHGMC_2

I'd suggest the team to try to ask them if they want to fund the camera if the content is really important for them. Otherwise, I can only forward the camera model to my boss and cross my fingers.

Business lesson time. I'm your blue professor for the day:

I would not even say to "fund the camera". Then the client will expect to get a free camera. And yes, free, even if he "pays for it" (not really), because you'll still be doing grunt work to track it down, test it, clean/maintain it, etc. Time is money. I refuse to use unowned gear for projects.

"Help me fund a camera" also comes across as weak, and amateur.

Instead, use wording like "after assessing your tapes", there need to be some "added project costs", due to the "formatting of your tapes". It's only ~$300 CAD, which breaks down to $X per tape, "not unreasonable given project needs".

Otherwise you'll be unable to perform the work. His choice.

outcome A =
- work not done

outcome B =
- now you have a good D8 camera for now, and for next time
- client gets transfers performed properly

Non-business people will have this stupid idea that this is "unfair" and "you shouldn't make them pay for it". BS. The client requested work you don't do, and is essentially funding a new line of work. The client doesn't need to know the details, as long as he/she agrees to the project costs. Talking about formats and cameras is just going to complicate matters. The person already gave you tapes, not knowing the formatting and contents.

If the client pushes back, wants more details, then you can say you need to "source another camera for his project", and the added fees "helps cover his project requirements". If they don't want the work, then you "won't go to that expense". But I highly doubt that will be the case, it rarely is.

Most people will say things like "I have Sony tapes", and they don't know what they don't know. All that matters to them is quality output is returned.

There's a difference between being honest, and being "so honest" that you screw yourself out of work.

- His concern = amount paid ~ quality of work (value)
- Your concerns = tools/time needed ~ amount received
Do not confuse these roles. There is no overlap.
That means that "help me fund a camera" is you confusing his role as the client. That's not his role, and you'll screw yourself if you try to make it his role. You're now making him part vendor, and that's dangerous.

I would normally not help others like this, but I've had a good relationship with your org for years.

/class dismissed.

[latreche34]

From the supplied footage and assuming the customer confirms there is contents in the tapes, These are 99.99% D8 recordings, If you are in the business you should get a D8 player or camcorder, These will be in DV digital format, different from analog Hi8/Video8, You will need the legacy firewire port to transfer them using either WinDV or Sclive app.

[vwestlife]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Just to reiterate, Digital8 was a consumer digital SD format, Sony's quick lazy answer to MiniDV.

Sony was part of the consortium who created DV in the first place. They had been selling MiniDV camcorders for several years before introducing Digital8.

Digital8 was introduced to provide a lower price point for digital camcorders, and to provide an upgrade path for their large base of Video8 and Hi8 camcorder owners.

Digital8 is also more reliable than MiniDV, due to the wider tape running at a faster speed. In terms of track spacing, it's actually closer to the professional DVCAM format than it is to MiniDV. In my experience, Digital8 recordings are much less prone to dropouts than MiniDV.

It was JVC who had a "quick lazy answer", to slap a MiniDV tape mechanism inside the same camcorder housing they were using for VHS-C, resulting in a lot of wasted space inside, due to the much smaller size of the MiniDV tape. That was JVC's way to provide a digital camcorder at a bargain price and compete with Digital8:
JVC GR-DVF10U MiniDv Digital Cybercam Camcorder

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwestlife

Sony was part of the consortium who created DV in the first place. They had been selling MiniDV camcorders for several years before introducing Digital8.

Digital8 was introduced to provide a lower price point for digital camcorders, and to provide an upgrade path for their large base of Video8 and Hi8 camcorder owners.

Digital8 is also more reliable than MiniDV, due to the wider tape running at a faster speed. In terms of track spacing, it's actually closer to the professional DVCAM format than it is to MiniDV. In my experience, Digital8 recordings are much less prone to dropouts than MiniDV.

It was JVC who had a "quick lazy answer", to slap a MiniDV tape mechanism inside the same camcorder housing they were using for VHS-C, resulting in a lot of wasted space inside, due to the much smaller size of the MiniDV tape. That was JVC's way to provide a digital camcorder at a bargain price and compete with Digital8:
JVC GR-DVF10U MiniDv Digital Cybercam Camcorder

I know, but it was still Sony's answer to take more market share for themselves, not allow the upgrade path to be Hi8 > MiniDV.

Sony DV cameras also sucked compared to Canon.

I agree, the tapes can be more robust. But quality of the tape mattered. Almost any MiniDV tape was fine, but not any random Sony 8mm was the same. I get both excellent and problematic D8 tapes.

JVC camcorders were not great. JVC also mis-engineered DV on the pro decks, too.

[vwestlife]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I know, but it was still Sony's answer to take more market share for themselves, not allow the upgrade path to be Hi8 > MiniDV.

Not having Digital8 would've only further slowed the migration from analog to digital. Even with Sony purposely removing stereo sound and hi-res image sensors from their analog Hi8 camcorders as soon as Digital8 was introduced, consumers kept wanting to buy the analog models, so Sony kept selling them for almost another decade, just like JVC kept selling VHS-C camcorders for more than a decade after introducing MiniDV.

When I bought my first camcorder in the summer of 2008, I did briefly consider an analog Hi8 model, because they had finally been discontinued and remaining stock was sold off at closeout prices (around $150, IIRC).