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06-04-2023, 07:06 AM
igpx22 igpx22 is offline
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Hey all,

Got a client Iím digitizing some Hi8 tapes for. TDK tapes, labeled, look okay. Using a Sony CCD-TRV15 camcorder. Getting blue and static when I play back ANY of these tapes though. Never had this much of an issue. I have a tape I recorded myself with the camcorder for fun a few months ago and that DOES playback. So it doesnít seem like the players issue, must be the tapes but seemed weird it was all 5 of them. Anyone have ideas on other things to do to see if so can still get footage off these tapes? Or why mine / other tapes in the past would work and these 5 now are not? Thanks!!
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  #2  
06-04-2023, 08:00 AM
timtape timtape is offline
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Welcome, any chance of a sample or two?
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  #3  
06-04-2023, 08:39 AM
igpx22 igpx22 is offline
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@timtape thanks! And here are two screens, flickering between static and blue, blue for like 5s then a second of static then blue again


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  #4  
06-04-2023, 10:24 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Do the tapes have blue screen and static or your capture card giving you blue screen? there is a huge difference. Because if your capture card is the one giving you a blue screen then the tapes are probably Digital8, you should know this if you are doing this as a business, Anyway a shot clip is the best way to diagnose the problem, stills don't tell the whole story.

https://www.youtube.com/@Capturing-Memories/videos
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  #5  
06-04-2023, 11:20 PM
Hushpower Hushpower is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Latreche
the tapes are probably Digital8, you should know this if you are doing this as a business
How? Perhaps the client didn't say what they were.
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  #6  
06-05-2023, 12:29 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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It's a common format, Even if the customer said nothing at all he should have the knowledge to be able to identify the tape format and have the necessary equipement to do it, unless it is a rare odd ball format. Even if we assume the tapes are indeed Hi8, you can't playback Hi8 tapes with a Video8 camcorder, Though it is not the issue here.
Would you take your car to a mechanic that asks you what engine in your car is as he can't identify it? I'm pretty sure your drive off and never put a step in that place again. Wouldn't you?

https://www.youtube.com/@Capturing-Memories/videos
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  #7  
06-05-2023, 12:44 AM
Hushpower Hushpower is online now
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Quote:
Would you take your car to a mechanic that asks you what engine in your car is as he can't identify it?
What? That is obviously not the same. Try to keep your analogies relevant.
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  #8  
06-05-2023, 02:58 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Ok, here is a relevant example, If you have no clue about video capturing, would you send your tapes to someone who can't figure out what signal is recorded on them?
I'm not against anyone trying to learn doing something, I'm against someone who's experimenting with other people's precious memories. I've said this before and I keep saying it over and over again, Learn, master, then open a business.

https://www.youtube.com/@Capturing-Memories/videos
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  #9  
06-05-2023, 05:13 AM
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Sony CCD-TRV15 is a Video8 camera, and you have Hi8 tapes.

I have to concur with latreche34 here.

Not knowing basics, such as identifying PAL/NTSC or V8/Hi8/D8 format, is rank newbie level stuff. I encourage others to learn video. However, I'm entirely against "learning as you go" on irreplaceable customer tapes, where you're changing money. Seriously, WTF?

I think a mechanic analogy is good here. I would not want a "mechanic" (poser) to have to refer to a Chilton (or Haynes) manual every 2 seconds, to figure out how to change the oil on my domestic/American-made car (ie, something extremely basic to car maintenance in a shop).

I'm am all for helping folks, and I'll even help here. But it won't be without a bit of scolding.

Buying aspirin at the drug store doesn't make you a doctor.

Using Google, Youtube, ChatGPT, etc, doesn't make you qualified for something, certainly not to offer services to customers, especially when you're dealing with irreplaceable items.

That reminds me of the hacks that "restore" artwork, which seems to be an issue for old women in Europe across the past decade.

As an exact example, continuously sticking in tapes that are "not working" should not keep being crammed into those devices. With video, with important/irreplaceable/valuable tapes, stop what you're doing. It is very possible to damage or erase/deguass tapes.

8mm tapes could be used for Video8, Hi8, or Digital8. Any branding as "Hi8" didn't matter to the actual recorded data (analog or digital). Most people ignored that, and just bought whatever 8mm were available at the time, and this was common knowledge to most V8/Hi8/D8 users at the time.

We adopted VHS-C and S-VHS-C, and not Hi8 (oops, dang it, mistake). When I wanted to learn about 8mm formats, I didn't solicit work from others. No, I bought a camera and some blanks. That's how I learned. A close friends wanted me to convert his old V8 tapes next, and I did, slowly, with warning that it was new territory for me. It was a few years before it became an added service.

V8, Hi8, and D8 each have specific quirks that are unlike VHS, DV, or others.

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  #10  
06-05-2023, 05:25 AM
Hushpower Hushpower is online now
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You won't mention that again, will you @igpx22?!
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  #11  
06-05-2023, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hushpower View Post
You won't mention that again, will you @igpx22?!
Trying to hide it rarely works. It always comes out.

The person doesn't know what he doesn't know. So we have to keep asking questions, and asking questions. Eventually, that detail is shared. In this example, it's a simple as asking what the original recording camera was. Most people know this info ... except when the tapes are not theirs.

I welcome professionals of all levels. But when you don't know basics, then we have problems. The question then shifts from the paid video work, to asking why you're doing it at all.

I've seen/read too many video horror stories in the past 20 years. I won't encourage it, be party to it. Learn your limits, learn stuff period. And before getting paid for it.

I've tried to salvage too many projects performed by morons, and I always hate having to give bad news that the person had screwed it up irreparably. (The worst were services that "charged extra" to return tapes, and offered to destroy/dispose of the tapes "for free". All to save $10 on return shipping.) I've had deguassed tapes, and it was eerily similar to this thread.

I speak from experience here.
Horrible experience, sometimes heart-wrenching video/memory loss.

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  #12  
06-05-2023, 06:13 PM
igpx22 igpx22 is offline
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I’ve had 40 successful clients and thousands of dollars in profit but thanks to everyone who basically shot on me for asking questions about formats prevalent in the 90s. I’ll make sure to cancel my membership and stay away from your ivory tower of inherent knowledge about extinct media formats. Hope you all know everything about everything you ever do in the future or you might end up like me, asking questions and lord knows that’s the worse sin of all
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  #13  
06-05-2023, 07:45 PM
Hushpower Hushpower is online now
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Well said.

Lordsmurf, how many deguassings have you seen in your 20 years doing this stuff? Seriously.

How could one possibly have "heart-wrenching video/memory loss." unless a tape is physically ripped out of it's case and thrown out of the window and physically destroyed? Sure, tapes break, and they can be rejoined. That will not destroy a 60 minute tape, much less a 3 hour VHS tape.

I've been at this, off and on, for 30 years. Thousands of runs in VCRs, thousands of runs in camcorders. I have had ONE tape break. I followed the instructions of a bloke on YT who you considered a moron and I fixed it.

How could "the person had screwed it up irreparably."?

Quote:
I've tried to salvage too many projects performed by morons
What, a re-capture?

Quote:
Learn your limits, learn stuff period.
I thought that's what you put this site up for. If you're just going to outright abuse people, then visitors are going to think again about staying here.
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  #14  
06-06-2023, 01:23 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Anyone is free to learn and can ask for help, just don't practice on customers' tapes, I did offer him help already, read my posts again, But I just have to causion about valuable customer tapes.

https://www.youtube.com/@Capturing-Memories/videos
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  #15  
06-06-2023, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igpx22 View Post
thanks to everyone who basically shot on me for asking questions about formats prevalent in the 90s.
I don't see what the 90s has to do with anything.

Our valid concern is when people decide to open shop, provide paid services, while have a tenuous grasp of the skills needed to offer said service.

Quote:
or you might end up like me, asking questions and lord knows that’s the worse sin of all
On other topics, the difference is that I'm not asking extremely basic questions, meanwhile attempting to provide it as a paid service to others. (And I assume the same for latreche34 here.)

As a perfect example, I have an old car outside that does not run. I've had it for decades, then it just sort of stopped. Eventually, I want to not just repair it, but heavily customize it. I'll surely go online, learn, then try to do. I'll surely have many questions. I know that (currently) I don't know what I don't know, likely including extreme basics. The difference here is I'm not going to open up a car customs/repair shop, accept work, and figure it out as I go.

As mentioned, trying to put a Hi8 tape (if accurate) into a Video8 players is just ... there are no words. Really, honestly, it's that bad here. If a DIY'er or hobbyists makes that newbie mistake, understandable. But somebody getting paid for the work? No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hushpower View Post
Lordsmurf, how many deguassings have you seen in your 20 years doing this stuff? Seriously.
Several dozen.

All involved situations like this: putting the wrong media in the wrong player.

So, if 8mm, and unknown, start with a Digital8 deck that also plays Hi8 and Video8. Then you'll know what's what.

Anytime you run into video errors, stop immediately. Don't keep trying over and over, sometimes not even for the purpose of getting samples. Damage is possibly being done, and irreparably so.

Quote:
How could one possibly have "heart-wrenching video/memory loss." unless a tape is physically ripped out of it's case and thrown out of the window and physically destroyed? Sure, tapes break, and they can be rejoined. That will not destroy a 60 minute tape, much less a 3 hour VHS tape.
How could "the person had screwed it up irreparably."?
Unfortunately, you'd be wrong. Something as simple as bad heads/transport can destroy a tape after playback. Sometimes the tape simply self-destructs on first playback, something I've been warning about, for about 5 years now, especially 80s VHS tapes, especially BASF. But it can afflict 8mm tapes from the 90s, something that others here (especially NJRoadfan) have seen more of.

Notice that every malformed "play" incurs the same damage in those situations. It's a physical scenario, not related to the image/signal. Capture tests, attempt to capture, the physical damage occurs regardless. Latter captures impossible to problematic.

So re-capture is not possible. That leaves the captured files only. And sometimes those are crap, sadly even drop-frame deinterlaced low-bitrate H.264 "MP4" files. You can barely make out faces, and at least once the audio sounded like it came out of a barrel. The reason? Amateur "pro" services.

Quote:
I've been at this, off and on, for 30 years. Thousands of runs in VCRs, thousands of runs in camcorders. I have had ONE tape break.
(1) luck
(2) you're apparently far more careful than most, and I commend you on it

Quote:
I followed the instructions of a bloke on YT who you considered a moron and I fixed it.
Youtube can have good advice. Sadly, it has more bad advice, especially when it comes to tape media.

For example, putting generic non-specialized adhesive tape on the videotape damages heads. It's not even an "if" but how much damage was done by the adhesive tape.

Also realize I get the tough jobs, the projects others screwed up, and I'm the "help me Obi Wan, you're my only hope". So I see more of this than others. It's out there. The common cause? Other services screwing it up. Literally, for over a decade now, many jobs are do-overs. Some due to personal messes, more due to "service" messes.

Quote:
I thought that's what you put this site up for. If you're just going to outright abuse people, then visitors are going to think again about staying here.
From day one, part of the mission statement of this site was consumer advocacy, specifically when it came to
- products that were BS
- services that peddled myths, misinformation, or had a very obvious lack of knowledge (ie, unqualified); be it slop shops like Legacy Box, or folks in their garage treating it as a method to bring in extra/beer money.

The reason? Those are the products/services that do the greatest amount of harm to customers, by ruining their memories, losing media.

For example, do not use PRINCO DVD-R, to archive Easycap grabs, as done by the teenage "pro service" in his basement, using a thrift store VCR.

There are numerous members of this site, who have chosen to seek advice before soliciting work. These members are amazing folks, doing good work. Some bought my gear/workflows, some acquired elsewhere. Some sought my advice, some acquired good advice from others on this site. But the common thread is they didn't practice on customer tapes. None made what I would consider Video 101 type errors, ie attempting to use Video8 cam on Hi8 tapes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Anyone is free to learn and can ask for help, just don't practice on customers' tapes, I did offer him help already, read my posts again, But I just have to causion about valuable customer tapes.
Same for me, if you read the posts from start to finish.

I don't see why this is controversial. Yes, it may momentarily piss off the person, but you know what? I've been down this road before, and I've surprisingly often had those same folks return to me with thanks, apologies, etc. It was the smack upside the head they needed to better hone their skills, to learn more before doing/practicing. Sadly, some did have "oops" stories, and it took both my chastise, and a bad situation, for them to realize they were in over their head.

With video, you can only be lucky for so long, when you don't know what you're doing.

Threads like this may make me seem unfriendly, which is not the case. But I have to take a stand on certain issues. I can't be all smiles, all the time, to everybody, regardless of how untenable a situation is.

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  #16  
06-06-2023, 02:19 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
I don't see why this is controversial. Yes, it may momentarily piss off the person, but you know what? I've been down this road before, and I've surprisingly often had those same folks return to me with thanks, apologies, etc. It was the smack upside the head they needed to better hone their skills, to learn more before doing/practicing. Sadly, some did have "oops" stories, and it took both my chastise, and a bad situation, for them to realize they were in over their head.
Back in the 90's when I was in college, My friend had a graduation day and his family owned a fancy Sony Hi8 camcorder so me being a "tech savvy" I'm or at least that's what I lead everyone to believe, asked him if I can shoot his graduation ceremony, He said, sure. So I took the camcorder and pumped up my chest like a pro and started shooting behind him, As we were walking down the stairs to the room, a random girl was shouting at me "The lens cap is on, the lens cap is on". My friend turned around and saw the camcorder's lens cap is still on and said, "come on... really?".
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  #17  
06-14-2023, 07:19 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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FWIW: that page 24 of the Sony user manual states:

"•You can play back the tapes recorded in the Hi8 video system on the standard 8 mm
camcorder (CCD-TRV15/TRV25/TRV35/TRV215/TRV315 only)."

But only the Hi8 models had DNR, TBC, s-video and could record in Hi8 format.

FWIW: The static image appears to show 3 vertical blanking intervals which is a bit unusual
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  #18  
06-16-2023, 04:12 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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FWIW: Tried a Hi8 recording in a Sony EV-A50 Video8 VCR. It sort of played the tape and provide an image of sorts, but with a lot of bright "comets" in it that looks a bit like dropouts or dirty heads. This is caused by the higher frequencies in the luma signal associated with Hi8 that this Video8 VCR could not cope with. On the other hand a D8 recording yielded a blue screen.
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