Pinnacle 510-USB vs. AVerMedia H727 for lossless VHS/Hi8?

[RB_Free]

Hi everyone, first of all, I wanted to thank you for all the great advice I’ve read here. It has been incredibly helpful. I’m currently refining my capture workflow and I would love to get your expert opinion on my current setup to see if there’s any room for improvement.
I found a Pinnacle 510-USB rev2, and I’m planning to re-capture my Hi8 tapes that I first digitized 14 years ago using the AVerMedia H727 with its native software (recording in MPEG-2 at 8Mbps without editing). I also recently found some badly damaged VHS tapes; following forum advice, I bought and recapped both a Panasonic EH55 and an ES10 to use as TBC pass-through.
In fact, I am now able to capture without major losses—previously, without a TBC, a 3-hour VHS would end up being only 2 hours and 22 minutes long, with an hour lost to 'AVerMedia no signal' screens. Currently, I capture at MPEG-2 15Mbps and then edit after running the files through ProjectX to sync the audio and identify dropped frames. I usually mux two different recordings to fill the gaps where, after about 2 hours, it starts losing about ten frames every 20-30 minutes (these are 3 to 5+ hour tapes, often in EP mode and heavily degraded).
Some time ago, I tried using VirtualDub2, but since I was low on disk space, I used the x264vfw codec. I didn’t notice any quality difference compared to the AVerMedia software, but I had to re-process those files for my editing program. Now that I have enough space, I want to try capture lossless following the forum guide.
To be honest, I didn't mind the H727 captures, except for some 'bleeding' on bright reds and yellows, and occasional recordings with no audio or washed-out colors. I’m not sure why the color issue happens, but it occurs in about 1 out of 10 capture sessions. I have attached two images of the same frame captured with the H727 from two different sessions: 1A and 2A show the washed-out colors, while 1B and 2B show the standard result, despite the chroma bleeding.
I was almost ready to go all-in on the I-O Data GV-USB2, but as a last-ditch effort, I searched my garage through old boxes of hardware. I was hoping to find an ATI AIW (I still remember seeing it once with its purple breakout box), but I only found about 20 AGP cards and an Empire PCI TV Radio (KW-TV7130RF) with a Philips SAA7130HL chipset (which I assume is useless). However, in an anonymous little box, I found a Pinnacle 510-USB rev2 with its cable.
This is better for me because I won't have to rebuild an old AGP-based PC; I can just use the 510-USB on my current Windows 7 x64 machine and try a lossless capture with virtualdub to see if it outperforms my old H727 and avoids the need for a GV-USB2. I’m hoping for a higher quality workflow that doesn't require hours of syncing and multiple passes to fill gaps.

My current setup:
VCR: LG VC-8804
Hi8: Sony EV-S9000E
TBC / Pass-through: Panasonic DMR-ES10 and Panasonic DMR-EH55
Capture Cards: AVerMedia H727 and Pinnacle 510-USB Rev 2 (I haven't tested it yet; I don't know if I should open it first to check the capacitors).

My recording procedure:
I turn on the VCR/HI8 first (blue screen), then the Panasonic ES10 (still need this for HI8 or is useless/worst have 2 different TBC?), open the capture software, insert the tape, and let it run for 20 seconds to adjust the tracking. Then, I rewind, start the recording, and press play.

Any thoughts, suggestions, or advice on this workflow would be greatly appreciated. I'm not looking for absolute perfection, but rather the simplest way to achieve a good quality capture without the bleeding and frame-dropping issues I've been facing now with the H727. Do you think the Pinnacle 510-USB is the right tool for this, or should I still consider the GV-USB2 or others?

[lordsmurf]

Welcome.

Quote:

I found a Pinnacle 510-USB rev2,

This is a long-lived card with versions. Some good, some bad. It's not something that is visible externally, and "Rev2" means nothing. The good version is one of the best cards you can get. This is why I make these cards available in the marketplace subforum, to help folks such as yourself to "hit the ground running" with capturing. I'm the easy button, press me.

Quote:

following forum advice, I bought and recapped both a Panasonic EH55 and an ES10 to use as TBC pass-through.

Using passthrough recorders, which have line TBC(ish), with non-TBC frame sync, makes the capture card choice all the more important. You must have a resilient card in the absence of frame TBC, and the Pinnacle is by far one of the best ever made.

Quote:

Some time ago, I tried using VirtualDub2, but since I was low on disk space, I used the x264vfw codec.

Never capture to H.264 (x264) codec. MPEG-2 high-birate is better. H.264 turns to mush, while MPEG made blocks without adequate bitrate.

Quote:

To be honest, I didn't mind the H727 captures, except for some 'bleeding' on bright reds and yellows, and occasional recordings with no audio or washed-out colors.

You shouldn't accept such low quality, and it doesn't have to be that way.

Quote:

I was almost ready to go all-in on the I-O Data GV-USB2,

That's not a good card, and the "Win11" versions apparently inject bad cropping with geometric distortions in-image, due to a wimpy PLL in use. That's just further downgrading quality.

Quote:

but as a last-ditch effort, I searched my garage through old boxes of hardware. I was hoping to find an ATI AIW (I still remember seeing it once with its purple breakout box), but I only found about 20 AGP cards and an Empire PCI TV Radio (KW-TV7130RF) with a Philips SAA7130HL chipset (which I assume is useless).

All cards that belong in a ditch.

Quote:

However, in an anonymous little box, I found a Pinnacle 510-USB rev2 with its cable.
This is better for me because I won't have to rebuild an old AGP-based PC; I can just use the 510-USB on my current Windows 7 x64 machine and try a lossless capture with virtualdub to see if it outperforms my old H727 and avoids the need for a GV-USB2. I’m hoping for a higher quality workflow that doesn't require hours of syncing and multiple passes to fill gaps.

Even the "bad version" tends to outperform bad cards. It's a low bar. So I would expect it to be the best of what you have on-hand.

Quote:

My recording procedure:
I turn on the VCR/HI8 first (blue screen), then the Panasonic ES10 (still need this for HI8 or is useless/worst have 2 different TBC?), open the capture software, insert the tape, and let it run for 20 seconds to adjust the tracking. Then, I rewind, start the recording, and press play.

Seems okay.
If that Hi8 camcorder has line TBC, and it's enable, then the ES10 TBC does nothing, or conflicts. The Hi8 TBC will be better in 99% of cases, while the ES10 is stronger+crippled. The ES10 is now only used for non-TBC frame sync. Combined with Pinnacle, you should be fine. Again, even if bad-version Pinnacle, which mostly injects noise, and some driver/function issues.

Quote:

should I still consider the GV-USB2 or others?

No. Either use that Pinnacle, or get mine.

[RB_Free]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Welcome.


This is a long-lived card with versions. Some good, some bad. It's not something that is visible externally, and "Rev2" means nothing. The good version is one of the best cards you can get. This is why I make these cards available in the marketplace subforum, to help folks such as yourself to "hit the ground running" with capturing. I'm the easy button, press me.

I see. I was actually looking for an ATI AIW because I was sure I had seen one when I stored my old components, but I found this Pinnacle instead. I wanted to understand if it’s worth using and if it’s worth recapping in case of issues. I’ll definitely open it up to check its condition and avoid any stress-related damage—maybe with some luck, it’s one of the 'good' ones!

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Using passthrough recorders, which have line TBC(ish), with non-TBC frame sync, makes the capture card choice all the more important. You must have a resilient card in the absence of frame TBC, and the Pinnacle is by far one of the best ever made.

The Panasonic units have been a miracle solution for me. I had never captured VHS before; I mostly had Hi8 tapes and the Sony deck which has an internal TBC. I actually tried daisy-chaining it, but then I discovered it doesn't support pass-through. That’s why I had never experienced that 'no signal' screen issue before, except when the signal was actually missing.
I also tried capturing via HDMI using a cheap converter, but besides the colors being totally wrong, it created random frames that made the video stutter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Never capture to H.264 (x264) codec. MPEG-2 high-birate is better. H.264 turns to mush, while MPEG made blocks without adequate bitrate.

You shouldn't accept such low quality, and it doesn't have to be that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

That's not a good card, and the "Win11" versions apparently inject bad cropping with geometric distortions in-image, due to a wimpy PLL in use. That's just further downgrading quality.

Ah, I see. I thought the GV-USB2 was the only 'new' alternative because my research suggested it was the closest thing to the older, better cards. That’s why I had narrowed my choice down to the AVerMedia EZMaker 7, Blackmagic, Diamond VC500SE, GV-USB2, Dazzle, and PORTTA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

All cards that belong in a ditch.

I figured as much!
The only other thing I found that looked decent was an old DVD decoder card (one of those early MPEG-2 hardware decoders designed to be daisy-chained with the VGA), but that’s not useful here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Even the "bad version" tends to outperform bad cards. It's a low bar. So I would expect it to be the best of what you have on-hand.

That would be perfect. I’m already somewhat satisfied, but since I want to preserve these old memories, I want to do it right once and for all. Five years ago, I spent €450 on an 8mm film scanner and spent 5-6 months digitizing everything. They are saved now, and even though I still need to do color correction and editing, at least the raw captures are at maximum quality.
Hi8 and VHS are important memories too, though slightly less critical than the films, so I just want them done well and without major issues.
This is also because, aside from the Hi8 tapes which were recorded with a budget camcorder, the VHS tapes are mostly multi-generational recordings. They were recorded in LP mode from the output of other cameras onto tapes that had been reused many times. I also have a recording of a local tournament from TV, but again, it was recorded in LP from a channel that had ghosting issues at the time. I know I can't get professional quality from these tapes, but I want to avoid making them look any worse and preserve them properly for the future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Seems okay.
If that Hi8 camcorder has line TBC, and it's enable, then the ES10 TBC does nothing, or conflicts. The Hi8 TBC will be better in 99% of cases, while the ES10 is stronger+crippled. The ES10 is now only used for non-TBC frame sync. Combined with Pinnacle, you should be fine. Again, even if bad-version Pinnacle, which mostly injects noise, and some driver/function issues.

I’m still a bit confused about the difference between Line TBC and Full Frame TBC. Even with a high-end model like the Sony, I’m was not sure if it’s better or worse to always use the Panasonic in the chain. Also, the Sony has NR filters and other settings; I need to research more to understand if I should keep them active during capture or disable them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

No. Either use that Pinnacle, or get mine.

[RB_Free]

I finally managed to run a couple of tests comparing the Pinnacle 510 to my AVerMedia H727.

First, I took it apart to check its condition since it had been sitting in the garage; the internal board was in great shape and it seems to be one of the 'good' versions (at least from what I’ve gathered) featuring the Philips chip.

510.jpg

From the images, you can see that the Pinnacle’s quality is clearly superior (both were captured via VCR -> ES10 -> VirtualDub using the same settings) it's much cleaner with less noise. As for the colors, except for the reds and some yellows, I still prefer the AVerMedia because they look more 'vibrant,' natural, and less washed out. However, I believe the Pinnacle’s colors can be adjusted via the 'video proc amp', so it still comes out on top in every aspect.

You must be logged in to view this content; either login or register for the forum. The attached screen shots, before/after images, photos and graphics are created/posted for the benefit of site members. And you are invited to join our digital media community.

H727_510_4.jpg

[Others test images are in "Attached Images"]


The main issue is the image stability, as you can see in the test video:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/zaant...0ebiv81nq&dl=0

Even though I’m outputting from the ES10 with the same cables, the Pinnacle shows a lot of jitter and loss of vertical sync, whereas the AVerMedia is significantly better it’s as if it has an additional internal TBC (I know LS is going to scold me for saying that) or some kind of image stabilization process.

Could it be that the VHS had better alignment during the second pass?
I captured with the Pinnacle first and then the AVerMedia by rewinding the tape, so nothing should have changed; I didn't eject the tape or redo the tracking.
I tested this with a retail 'good' tape rather than a home recording to ensure a proper sample.

When I have some more time, I’ll try with the EH55 to see if it was just a fluke or if the ES10 is having some sort of conflict with the Pinnacle.

[Aya_Rei]

Well the tape is clearly in rough enough shape to cause jittering for both captures.

I've usually seen jittering happening no matter the capture card, so basically a non capture card issue.

What VCR are you using more importantly? If it's a S-VHS unit with a TBC built in then disable it and capture with the ES10. Otherwise their TBC's will conflict with each other, leading to the ES10 doing nothing and the VCR's internal TBC being the one doing correction, or not enough correction in some cases.

Which is why we use the ES10/15 or another VCR (ie a Panasonic 1980 over a JVC) for those rare problematic tapes that do not play nicely with a JVC's TBC enabled.

Anyway for me in terms of colors, you'd probably just need to bump up to saturation of the Pinnacle by 10% until it looks more or less the same.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RB_Free

and it seems to be one of the 'good' versions (at least from what I’ve gathered) featuring the Philips chip.

Being "good version" or "bad version" has nothing to do with a Philips chip. However, based on your samples, it might be a good version. Maybe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RB_Free

Even though I’m outputting from the ES10 with the same cables, the Pinnacle shows a lot of jitter and loss of vertical sync, whereas the AVerMedia is significantly better it’s as if it has an additional internal TBC (I know LS is going to scold me for saying that) or some kind of image stabilization process.

No capture card has an onboard TBC. None. The closest that ever existed was the half-baked Analog Devices chips, but those card manufacturers disabled the screwy "TBC-like" function, because it just made video worse more than not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RB_Free

ICould it be that the VHS had better alignment during the second pass?
I captured with the Pinnacle first and then the AVerMedia by rewinding the tape, so nothing should have changed; I didn't eject the tape or redo the tracking.

Yes. This is known as "re-packing" a tape. Run both tests again.

Quote:

When I have some more time, I’ll try with the EH55 to see if it was just a fluke or if the ES10 is having some sort of conflict with the Pinnacle.

ES10 should perform better than EH55, and no conflicts should exist -- unless it's a bad Pinnacle version. And that's still not off the table.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

you'd probably just need to bump up to saturation of the Pinnacle by 10% until it looks more or less the same.

Don't assume that. The AVerMedia actually looks oversaturated. Headlights are not that yellow, grass is rarely that richly green in dawn/dusk.

[RB_Free]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

Well the tape is clearly in rough enough shape to cause jittering for both captures.

I've usually seen jittering happening no matter the capture card, so basically a non capture card issue.

What VCR are you using more importantly? If it's a S-VHS unit with a TBC built in then disable it and capture with the ES10. Otherwise their TBC's will conflict with each other, leading to the ES10 doing nothing and the VCR's internal TBC being the one doing correction, or not enough correction in some cases.

Which is why we use the ES10/15 or another VCR (ie a Panasonic 1980 over a JVC) for those rare problematic tapes that do not play nicely with a JVC's TBC enabled.

Anyway for me in terms of colors, you'd probably just need to bump up to saturation of the Pinnacle by 10% until it looks more or less the same.

I'm using an LG VC-8804.
Unfortunately, the S-Video output only works for the DVD side, so I’m running Composite -> ES10/EH55 -> S-Video out -> capture card.

I’ve captured some really bad tapes where the signal was jumping all over the place, but the EH55 and even more so the ES10 stabilized the 'unstabilizable'.

For this test, I used a good tape (not homemade) and with the AVerMedia it was more or less normal (though there was some slight jitter), but with the Pinnacle I noticed that specific glitch I’d never encountered before.
Usually, with different recordings, I might see lines or snow that disappear if I re-play the tape a second time, but I’ve never seen those kinds of jumps when routing through the Panasonics.
Maybe it was the tape itself or the heads weren't perfectly aligned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Yes. This is known as "re-packing" a tape. Run both tests again.

As LS suggests, when I have some time, I’ll repeat the test maybe with a different tape. I have about fifty of them, so I should be able to find one in 'good' condition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Being "good version" or "bad version" has nothing to do with a Philips chip. However, based on your samples, it might be a good version. Maybe.

Finger crossed

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

No capture card has an onboard TBC. None. The closest that ever existed was the half-baked Analog Devices chips, but those card manufacturers disabled the screwy "TBC-like" function, because it just made video worse more than not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Don't assume that. The AVerMedia actually looks oversaturated. Headlights are not that yellow, grass is rarely that richly green in dawn/dusk.

Yes, I know. In fact, when I've seen old discussions about color, I've always chosen the image/video considered "worst" by the experts.
Personally, I prefer more "colorful" videos and even on TV I always tend to choose a warm tone over a neutral or cool one.
The colors may not be 100% calibrated but IMHO they appear better and more vibrant.

However, first I'll solve the jitter "problem" (if i have that problem), then I'll study how to calibrate the colors and how to deinterlace everything, since compared to the Avermedia software, I get interlaced videos and not automatically converted to progressive.




Attached are some more comparison images that I don't know why weren't included in the previous post.