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11-20-2010, 03:09 AM
Eagleaye Eagleaye is offline
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I have a load of family VHS and Hi8 video as well as TV recordings that I want to get into digital format, at the best quality I can reasonably obtain, and eventually edit in Final Cut Express on an i7 iMac.
I have a JVC D-VHS machine and been experimenting with an EZCap USB device with Videoglide software on a dual drive, dual processor G5 Mac, but had some problems with dropped frames when capturing in some of the formats, also the resulting material still needs converting to DV through MPEG Streamclip to work well with FCE.

Before I spend too much time trying to get the workflow right for the EZCap, I'm wondering if I'd be better off capturing on a Windows XP machine using Virtualdub?
I'm not adverse to using different platforms to get a good result and have access to a Pentium 4 PC with an ATI All in Wonder 9600 Pro AGP Card that I could utilise, I've read that in many ways these older AGP cards are just as good if not better than todays cards for capturing.
In short, are there advantages of using an XP machine with the 9600 card and Virtualdub over the EZCap device on the Mac, I'm I likely to notice a difference?
If the PC is thought to be the best option should I convert the resulting material on the PC or on the Mac with Streamclip for use with FCE?
Finally when converting material from lossless to DV format for Mac what am I losing in quality, I'm I going to notice it?

Any opinions and advice greatly appreciated.
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  #2  
11-20-2010, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
have access to a Pentium 4 PC with an ATI All in Wonder 9600 Pro AGP Card that I could utilise, I've read that in many ways these older AGP cards are just as good if not better than todays cards for capturing.
This would be my suggestion. You'll be hard-pressed to get a better capture card than this specific ATI All In Wonder card, without spending huge sums of money on gear from Matrox, Blackmagic, Aja or a few others (not Canopus).

Quote:
have a JVC D-VHS machine
This is good -- great VCR for getting the most quality as you can from those old VHS tapes.

The only item that may be missing is a standalone full-frame TBC.
Most on that here: http://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum/show...base-2251.html

Quote:
been experimenting with an EZCap USB device with Videoglide software on a dual drive, dual processor G5 Mac
This is triple punishment!
  1. EZCap USB device = cheap little device, quality average at best in most cases
  2. Videoglide software = crap. When 640x480 is the max resolution support, it's time to find something else. That reminds me of Windows software form 10+ years ago.
  3. G5 Mac = Macs unfortunately make for horrible capturing machines. Great for editing, compositing effects, authoring DVDs --- but crap for capturing. Always do capturing on something else first, generally a Windows XP based computer.

Quote:
are there advantages of using an XP machine with the 9600 card and Virtualdub over the EZCap device on the Mac, I'm I likely to notice a difference?
Yes, the quality is much better.
Yes, you'll most likely notice. Almost everybody notices, as I've observed for about 8 years now (since first ATI AIW cards).
You can also use ATI MMC for MPEG-2 or AVI capturing.

Quote:
Finally when converting material from lossless to DV format for Mac what am I losing in quality, I'm I going to notice it?
NTSC video color starts to look "odd" or "cooked" or "artificial" when the colorspace is chopped down from 4:2:2 to 4:1:1 compression. Theory dictates I'm wrong, but practical application and observation tends to disagree with many professionals and amateurs alike. PAL DV is 4:2:0 (different 4:2:0 than DVD-Video's MPEG-2 4:2:0), and while theory dictates it should have problems, it generally looks just as clean as the source.

I would avoid NTSC DV (i.e. DV25 @ 4:1:1) as much as possible.

If DV is your least-evil option, however, then you're just forced to use it. It's not the end of the world.

DV50 is 4:2:2, and a much better DV codec. The Matrox DV50 codec is available for free download by Matrox.
Mirror download is here: http://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum/show...1937#post11937
Original Matrox site download for VFW codecs is at http://www.matrox.com/video/en/support/downloads

There's a big thread on DV compression here: http://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum/show...pace-2270.html
Give that a good read.

...

If nothing else, moving to the ATI card for capturing will improve your quality, even if you're still forced to use DV compression in order to edit on the Mac.

I wish you well on your project!

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  #3  
11-22-2010, 08:30 AM
Eagleaye Eagleaye is offline
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Many thanks for the reply.
I'm going to try without a TBC in the first instance, they're quite expensive and from what I've seen so far the VHS material seems to be playing well, the D-VHS has a built in TBC, I'll invest if further material starts to deteriorate.
I'll dust off the old PC and make it the dedicated capture machine using Virtualdub, will processor speed (1.8Ghz) or RAM be limiting factors in anyway?
Are you suggesting that, as I will be using FCE to edit the captured footage, I may as well capture using the DV50 codec with Virtualdub, or am I getting the wrong end of the stick?
All my source is PAL and I have captured with that codec (albeit with Videoglide) and it still required conversion to be useable in Final Cut Express.
Is there a "best practice" when moving this type of material from PC to Mac?
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11-22-2010, 08:54 AM
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Can FCE read a DV50 .avi file, as produced by VirtualDub? That's something you may want to test real quick, with a 1-minute capture. What sort of filse will Final Cut Express ingest/import? Surely the help documentation has a list of support input files.

I don't have that particular program, or its documentation, so I can't look it up myself.

The easiest way to move data between MacOS and Windows is to simply use an external hard drive that both machines can see. That generally means FAT32, which has a 4GB limit that's no good for large video files. I suggest NTFS, formatted on the Windows computer.

Then use this on the Mac: http://www.apple.com/downloads/macos...es/ntfs3g.html

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11-25-2010, 07:56 AM
Eagleaye Eagleaye is offline
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hmmm....
so I got the PC out to set it up for Virtualdub and it looks like the AIW 9600 is playing up, getting vertical lines and the like on the bios post screen then after updating the drivers from the original CD the screen stays black and alternates between on and off!
This post probably belongs in a different thread but I'm thinking now it best just to reformat with a fresh copy of XP.
Can you offer any advice on the best way to go about this i.e should I leave the card in situ and let Windows find the drivers for the card, I suspect this would result in the latest drivers being applied, are they not the best to use for my purposes? Should I download the drivers, mmc and catalyst available on these forums or would it be best to install windows with another graphics card and install the AIW once the new OS is installed?
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11-27-2010, 09:43 AM
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I've come to the conclusion that my AIW 9600 is faulty and need to find a replacement or use the EZCap, that I now know is recognized as a Grabster AV350 in Virtualdub.
Can you advise me on what an AIW card would offer over the USB device if both were used in Virtualdub, so I can make a decision on wether to pay out more money or not.
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11-27-2010, 01:37 PM
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I'm not yet entirely convinced that this is a hardware issue with the ATI card. It does sound like a codec error system-wide. Have you ever installed one of those "codec packs" on the computer, by chance? That will kill a system, with these types of symptoms.

On a related note, I do have three ATI AIW cards available for sale, for $75 each:
1. ATI AIW 128 Pro AGP
2. ATI AIW 7500 AGP
3. ATI AIW 7200 PCI

... should you actually need a new known-good card. These were extras from backup capture systems that were converted to other tasks. The cards were purchased some years back for projects that didn't happen. So like-new, never used, more or less.

The EZCap is not something I'd waste a lot of time with. You can try it, sure, and see how it looks in VirtualDub. But don't expect too much from it. The only cheap $25 card that's known to give good quality is the Aldi Tevion USB2 card.

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11-27-2010, 03:34 PM
Eagleaye Eagleaye is offline
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It's mainly because I see spurious pixels and lines at the post bios screen as well as when XP boots up that I suspect a faulty card together with that I've tried it in two PC's now.
I've read that they can be problematic to install, so that's why I thought it an install problem initially. But be open to any software/install suggestions to make it work.
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11-27-2010, 03:51 PM
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just a quick thought, are there any jumpers on that card that can be adjusted... the reason that I ask is that i just went through that with some old cards that I came across, not aiw's... the cards had an option to be set as 'other' or something like that (can't remember exactly what right now, mind in a thousand directions) and it took me forever to find what it was, and it was probably the reason those cards were discarded, they had been set to 'other' and all the people that had them thought they were bad... just a thought... sitting here watching/listening/sweating through a VERY important football game, doing online tech support, some game blogging, starving, and knowing all my friends are out at the local watering holes watching same game... and after years of tech support, that is what popped into my head... you have probably been through all this already... when I come up with something else I will let you know...
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11-27-2010, 05:32 PM
mlongue1 mlongue1 is offline
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Eagleaye, that is an AGP AIW card right?... what AGP release is that?... I see that card can be 2x, 4x, 8x... and what AGP level is the MB(s) that you are installing it in?... some AGP cards can fit into slots they were not intended for, and that may be a cause of this... may be some bios settings to check on the MBs... is that card a direct ATI card, or a proprietary release?... I worked at CompUSA/BestBuy/CircuitCity and some small local outlets around the time that card was released, and I remember that we would have had that 9600 AIW AGP Pro chipset in probably 3-5 different brands... and proprietary drivers can be a b*tch to find...
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11-27-2010, 09:21 PM
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There's not any jumpers on the ATI All In Wonder Radeon AGP cards. The cards are completely setup by drivers in Windows. I've seen jumpers on other graphics and video capture cards -- but not the ATI AIW series cards.

Referring back to earlier posts, it's an ATI All in Wonder 9600 Pro AGP card.

That card is a 2x/4x/8x AGP card, not a 4x/8x only card. Or something like that. There were latter generation AGP slots and cards that were not compatible with earlier generation AGP. The "2006 special edition" ATI AIW AGP card is like that -- it only works in 8x slots. Aside from that, I don't really see how an AGP card could be put into another slot, even if you used a hammer.

The "All In Wonder" cards were not re-released by other brands that I can recall. That was only the graphics cards, from brands like Diamond. The AIW versions were direct from ATI, under the ATI brand.

Can you eliminate the monitor as being the problem? Does it work fine with other computers? I've seen far more bad monitors that bad video cards.

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11-28-2010, 02:18 AM
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The card has Sapphire stickered on it but I have the original driver CD.
I've tried it in two PC's with two two displays both with the correct monitor drivers, it has also been suggested that the system RAM might cause problems.
I can get it working in XP albeit with spurious pixels but attempting to install the catalyst results in the screen blacking out, I shouldn't get random pattens at BIOS post should I? Would the fact that I can't set the voltage to 0.8 to run it at X8 cause problems?
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11-28-2010, 01:07 PM
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Try to change the AGP aperture to 2x or 4x in the BIOS. Yes, altering voltage or running 8x aperture could cause some problems. I use this card at 4x. And indeed, having pixel/noise problems at POST would indicate hardware error. not that the card is bad, mind you -- just presence of an error. BIOS or motherboard jumper/power settings could be at fault. Same for bad RAM, or other nearby PCI cards that are "leaking" (FM, voltage, etc) from poor shielding or construction.

I've seen all of the these problems.
I've also seen bad cards.
And good cards that were thought to be bad by the owners. Hoping this is you.

What is make/model of your motherboard?
Did you overclock CPU?

Can you get a CPU-Z report? (Image based screencaps, please -- I hate the text output.)
Freeware from http://www.cpuid.com/softwares/cpu-z.html
I use the "unzippable" version -- not the installer. Just unzip, load cpu-z. Nothing to install/setup.

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12-02-2010, 06:29 AM
Eagleaye Eagleaye is offline
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I've attached some window grabs from CPU-Z.
The CPU hasn't been overclocked as far as I know, interestingly, after reinstalling the card today to run CPU-Z and letting windows find the drivers, I can't see any pixel noise when running XP although it was still there at the bios screen. I'm wondering if an attempt to install MMC would help matters, would that change any settings on the card itself?


Attached Images
File Type: jpg cpu.JPG (45.5 KB, 6 downloads)
File Type: jpg mainboard.JPG (37.8 KB, 5 downloads)
File Type: jpg cache.JPG (36.8 KB, 3 downloads)
File Type: jpg memory.JPG (33.9 KB, 5 downloads)
File Type: jpg graphics.JPG (29.1 KB, 5 downloads)
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12-02-2010, 05:37 PM
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Hmmm... not much RAM in there. I generally try to get 1GB minimum. You can pick up DDR chips for a low price these days -- and for name brand quality memory. Either add a chip, or replace the smallest current chip.

Only $35 shipped: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...SIN=B00076ZUZM

Try 4x AGP mode -- change it in the BIOS.

Then install your ATI drivers and the ATI MMC software. Be careful to follow the instructions, and reboot as instructed. Failure to reboot when prompted is a common reason ATI drivers and/or ATI MMC failes to install correctly.

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12-03-2010, 02:49 AM
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OK I'll put in more RAM, I assume the more the better for capturing.
Would the drivers found by an XP install be suitable?
If not how do I stop a fresh XP install finding the card so that I can install drivers from either the original CD or the downloaded files from this forum.
Another problem I've found is that after trying to install the Catalyst software the display ceases to work, I've almost convinced myself that this card is damaged despite your useful advice. Are there any graphics card diagnostics you're aware of?
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12-03-2010, 02:57 AM
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Quote:
I assume the more the better for capturing.
Not really. There is a point of diminishing returns. Anything above 2GB is pretty much pointless. Even 1.5GB is more than adequate. At 1GB, you're mostly watching after the OS and other system related usage. 512MB is a bit small, and would require virtual RAM / paging file, which is hard drive use, which can interrupt smooth data flow from a capture.

Quote:
Would the drivers found by an XP install be suitable?
No. Use the disc that came with the card.

Quote:
how do I stop a fresh XP install finding the card so that I can install drivers from either the original CD or the downloaded files from this forum
You don't. You just replace the graphics drivers later on. Windows won't understand the capturing parts of the card anyway -- those drivers are not in a Windows XP installer disc, even up to SP3.

Quote:
Another problem I've found is that after trying to install the Catalyst software the display ceases to work, I've almost convinced myself that this card is damaged despite your useful advice.
Try the pre-Catalyst files from this site's forum, instead of your CD. (Maybe the card came with the wrong CD?)

Quote:
Are there any graphics card diagnostics you're aware of?
Yes. But it's been so many years, I don't remember what they were. And given the sad nature of ATI's site, they're probably long gone now anyway, thanks to AMD gutting the ATI site a few years ago. So I have to effectively change my answer to "no" here, I'm afraid.

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12-09-2010, 01:36 PM
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Yep must have been a faulty AIW 9600. I've managed to get hold of an AIW 9800 pro now and installed it using the 9600 driver disc that appears to be version 8.7 of the software. I've also sourced some more RAM and dropped in a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz sound card from cira 2000. Hopefully this will be adequate to capture audio.
So now I have a dedicated Windows XP capture machine with HuffYUV and Matrox codecs installed, leaving me with the question of whether to capture using Virtualdub or ATI MMC, are there any advantages of one over the other?

As I still intend to edit in FCE on the Mac I suppose I'll have to do a few test captures using different codecs to see if any can be ingested by FCE, I can't find anywhere a specific list of what FCE can use other than DV Stream.
Is it best practice to capture lossless (is the lagarith codec worth investigating?), filter and convert later?
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12-09-2010, 02:48 PM
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FCE is a terribly limited program, and can only edit in DV, HDV, and AVCHD formats only. Personally I wouldn't use it, it would be better to edit with something like Sony Vegas or, if you want cheaper solutions but still a robust editor, Womble MPEG Video Wizard.
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12-09-2010, 03:51 PM
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The newest addition here is a Mac mini with OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard. It's mostly for the purpose of using Lightroom 3 for digital photography, but I've been running extensive video tests between other tasks.

So far, I can use VirtualDub via Wine, but Lagarith and a few other lossless codecs are the only ones I'm able to install. VirtualDub crashes if you try to crop video. HuffYUV is a no-go Mac-wide, from what I've seen so far. Not even in Wine. The only cross-compatible "codec" is uncompressed 4:2:2 YUY2 video. I've not yet installed my copy of Final Cut Pro, which is a version or two back from the current one. Same for DVDSP. Perian is supposed to maybe add some support for Lagarith or HuffYUV for via Quicktime (including Adobe Premiere), but I've not gotten it to work so far. MainConcept Reference does not see Lagarith files, even with Perian installed. I've also not yet installed Premiere CS3.

This is very much a work in progress.

I've also been messing around with various CD/DVD burning and testing tools, including some Linux tool recompiles. So far, I don't have much to show.

By and large, Mac systems were and still are created solely for DV and HDV type video workflows. Trying to make them accept other video formats takes a bit of effort, and choices are still far more limited compared to Windows systems -- or even Linux systems, for that matter.

I don't have the new gigabit switch yet, so I can't try capturing on the ATI MMC systems, transferring, and opening on the Mac just yet. It may be several more weeks before I get everything re-wired and setup. The 10/100 switch currently in use is for basic online access, and downloading small files. Even 4GB files want an hour or more on the 100 network -- so unworkable for now.

If FCE accesses via Quicktime, there's a chance it will allow for Perian imports, too. Something to test.

I'd also like to test the DV50 Matrox ATI capturing method, via VirtualDub.

ATI MMC and VirtualDub work equally well for AVI capturing. Because VirtualDub tends to be a little more non-intuitive to use, ATI MMC is the best choice for most folks. It's only been tested here with uncompressed and HuffYUV AVI, so there could be some unexpected issues with other codecs. I use VirtualDub quite a bit, however.

For MPEG-2 capturing, only use ATI MMC -- nothing else.

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