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05-10-2016, 01:00 AM
rf99 rf99 is offline
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Thanks to everyone on this forum, I've learned a ton, and have started over with an entirely new capture setup for my VHS home movies. (And, most importantly, I am no longer capturing to DV!)

The new setup uses a Windows XP capture system:
3.40 GHz Pentium 4 HT running XP Pro SP2
ATI AIW 7500 AGP
AVT-8710 TBC (the older, green one)
Turtle Beach Santa Cruz sound card (internally wired to AIW)
JVC SR-V101US (NORM, TBC/NR:on, Video Calibration:off, Digital R3:off, Video Stabilizer:off)
Mono-price 3ft S-Video cables
C-P7U VHS-C adapter (since almost all the movies are VHS-C tapes)

The setup seems to work well.

I am capturing via VirtualDub 1.10.4, using Lagarith YUY2. (I went Lagarith over HuffYUV, because the HuffYUV files do not seem to work in Premiere Elements.) I chose to go with a lossless encoding, because I have the disk space, and I'd like to keep the lossless files in case I ever do some more advanced restoration in the future. Not getting dropped frames, so seems all good.

I think I'm finally on the right path here. I do have a few questions related to the new setup:

1. I am definitely getting a less pleasant image through the AVT-8710. (Almost like there's a bit of a greyness to it.) I've seen postings here and elsewhere regarding the AVT-8710's default settings, and have seen just as many posts saying to keep the default settings on the TBC as there are to adjust the brightness and contrast... so wanted to get some input from you guys.

Without the AVT-8710:
no_tbc.jpg

With the AVT-8710:
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The difference is easier to see when you can flip through the images on top of each other.

Is it expected that with the right settings, the AVT-8710's output should match (or close to match) the picture quality of a capture that didn't use it?

2. Almost all of the recordings I am going to capture are from the same camcorder, and seem to have little if any vertical jitter. There is some jitter on a few tapes, which is why I wanted to get a good external TBC. But, if the answer to #1 is that you always do have to sacrifice a little in picture quality to get the clean signal from the TBC, then do most of you guys selectively use the TBC where needed? (Instead of using it always.)

3. My current work-flow plan is:
Capture AVI in VirtualDub with Lagarith YUY2 encoding
Possibly apply some AviSynth filters (TBD)
Basic editing in Adobe Premiere Elements

If I want to make some DVDs for family, then I'll follow one of the DVD workflows in the guide here.

But, my primary playback is going to be streaming from a server onto an HD TV.

lordsmurf mentioned in another post that H.264 is the best MP4-wrapper streaming format and supports interlaced, but that devices rarely use it (and that I'd likely need to make a deinterlaced version for streaming [progressive, non-interlaced] use).

However, I will be streaming using an Oppo BDP-103D. This blu-ray player supports streaming MP4 H.264:
http://wiki.oppodigital.com/index.ph...s_supported.3F

Would this be the suggested way to encode them, then? Or would something else be suggested?

Thanks, again!


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  #2  
05-10-2016, 11:00 AM
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The values on the non-TBC image look hot, crushed, and possibly illegal. That can be a side effect of a TBC. It has to do with timing and AGC. Since the timing now corrected, AGC isn't allowed to do whatever it wants.

Also be sure to hold reset on each value. Perhaps one got changed?

Capture tapes archival, make streaming copy from archival master.
My suggestion =
- MPEG-2 15mbps to store on disk
- reduced bitrate MPEG-2 for DVD
- QTGMC-deinterlaced H.264 MP4 to use on internet/network

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  #3  
05-10-2016, 11:05 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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All external tbc's affect the image in some way -- e.g., the TBC-1000 tends to soften. My AVT raises gamma somewhat. This is usually corrected using VirtualDub capture's "Levels..." dialog, which hooks into the ATI 7500's proc amp. The AVT proc amp controls work, but they're a little clunky and difficult to adjust precisely. Use VDub capture's histogram to check your levels in "Preview" mode. Turn it off when you start capturing.

I used VirtualDub's simple brightness/contrast filter to adjust the "with AVT" image to have the same histogram as the "Without" image, as it works similarly to the 7500's proc amp brightness and contrast control. Brightness controls the black levels, contrast controls the brights. I increased contrast about 15% to 20% and lowered brightness about 10%.

Without AVT, orginal:


With AVT, adjusted:


Note that tte originals posted earlier are lossy jpg, which affects the results posted here. I agree with lordsmurf as the original images look a bit hot in the brights and jpg compression produces some posterization effects on gradients.

In the long run the difference is often deceptive, as you should always check levels before capture and will have to tweak later anyway. Most tapes will be slightly different, some will be very different.

I use my AVT with captures except those that are made with a non-tbc VCR and a Panasonic DMR-ES10 tbc pass thru which has decent frame sync capability. I always always use the AVT for macrovision, and use it when the ES10's frame sync isn't effective enough.

I don't know what level of "edit" you intend for Premiere Elements, but Adobe doesn't handle UY2 or RGB conversions very well. Premiere Elements works in RGB. I suggest you make that conversion with Avisynth.


Attached Images
File Type: png without original.png (758.8 KB, 129 downloads)
File Type: png with adjusted.png (749.6 KB, 127 downloads)

Last edited by sanlyn; 05-10-2016 at 11:19 AM.
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  #4  
05-11-2016, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
The values on the non-TBC image look hot, crushed, and possibly illegal. That can be a side effect of a TBC. It has to do with timing and AGC. Since the timing now corrected, AGC isn't allowed to do whatever it wants.

Also be sure to hold reset on each value. Perhaps one got changed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
I agree with lordsmurf as the original images look a bit hot in the brights and jpg compression produces some posterization effects on gradients.
Thank you for your responses!

I made sure all the settings on the TBC were reset, and re-captured. The result was the same.
I also captured an outdoor image from another tape for comparison (this time .png exports from VirtualDub):

Without the AVT-8710:
no-tbc0000.png

With the AVT-8710 (after making sure all settings are reset):
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Without the AVT-8710:
tbc-after-reset0000.png

With the AVT-8710 (after making sure all settings are reset):
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After seeing both pairs, do you still think the "with" pictures show a truer picture?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
All external tbc's affect the image in some way -- e.g., the TBC-1000 tends to soften. My AVT raises gamma somewhat. This is usually corrected using VirtualDub capture's "Levels..." dialog, which hooks into the ATI 7500's proc amp. The AVT proc amp controls work, but they're a little clunky and difficult to adjust precisely. Use VDub capture's histogram to check your levels in "Preview" mode. Turn it off when you start capturing.
Thanks for the pointer. Still learning how to properly adjust an image based on the histogram, but I will try using VirtualDub to do that when needed. (I'll spend some time learning how and when to adjust the levels properly before continuing with the project.)

But, I also just wanted to make sure that the TBC wasn't doing something harmful/unexpected here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
I used VirtualDub's simple brightness/contrast filter to adjust the "with AVT" image to have the same histogram as the "Without" image, as it works similarly to the 7500's proc amp brightness and contrast control. Brightness controls the black levels, contrast controls the brights. I increased contrast about 15% to 20% and lowered brightness about 10%.
Looks much closer! But, from the sounds of it, I might be better off not trying to make it match... since the "with AVT" image was a truer image? Now that the attached images are lossless, do you think the "with AVT" image needs level adjustment?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
I don't know what level of "edit" you intend for Premiere Elements, but Adobe doesn't handle UY2 or RGB conversions very well. Premiere Elements works in RGB. I suggest you make that conversion with Avisynth.
Just cutting and splicing (and adding some effects). I didn't quite follow what you said here, though. Are you saying that Premiere Elements is converting YUY2 to RGB to use the file, and doesn't do it very well (and so I should convert to RGB in Avisynth first)? Elements seems to open and work the files fine, and didn't give any indication that it needed to convert anything... but I can't seem to find anything that indicates it is still working in the original encoding either.

Thanks for the help here!


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05-11-2016, 12:42 AM
rf99 rf99 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
The values on the non-TBC image look hot, crushed, and possibly illegal. That can be a side effect of a TBC. It has to do with timing and AGC. Since the timing now corrected, AGC isn't allowed to do whatever it wants.
Was thinking about this more. I can understand that when using the TBC, its own AGC is in effect (regulating the input signal to 1 V). And, since I'd assume the TBC corrects the timing beforehand... I'm guessing that helps reign in how much AGC regulation is needed to achieve the desired output?

But, for the non-TBC, there is no AGC present, right? Or, is there AGC happening in the VCR... which might be over-reacting since the timing is off? (And, therefore, the timing correction combined with the AGC in the TBC ends up countering the over-reaction of the VCR?)
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05-11-2016, 04:14 AM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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The AVT-8710 has a side effect of raising blacks and lowering the contrast, even when the source is a DVD player. It isn't related to VCR timing.

This may be considered a good thing if your tapes play "hot" to begin with.

http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...screenshots%29
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...n-avt8710.html

Capture cards and VCRs both use AGCs.
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  #7  
05-11-2016, 09:35 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Thanks for that capture info.

BTW, I still use my original AIW 7500. I always adjust Levels in VDub before capturing. Adjustments are always required from tape, a little or a lot depending on the VCR and the tape. You should get into the habit of doing that, because your game image shows blown-out highlights, luma as well as chroma. By adjusting during capture, you can compensate for whatever anyone's AGC is doing, although I don't see that effect with my 7500. If the original camera has AGC pumping effects, the best you can do is find an adjustment range that will accept the worst case scenario of level changes. A minute or two of working with a tape that has obvious AGC effects is usually enough to find a suitable range.

Capture is usually YUY2 color, as you've been doing. The luma range for this type of capture should fall inside the range y=16-235. One factor here with the images is that they're converted from YUV to RGB which stretches dark and bright extremes to 0-255. So if highlights are outside the capture range of 16-235, then 0-255 is as far as you can go -- everything beyond that will be clipped. True, some tbc's try to limit that range but your "tbc" image still has brights and color extending beyond RGB 255. Still images often are sufficient, but in some cases you should submit a short clip of unaltered YUY2 capture, which you can do in VirtualDub with lossles AVI and "direct stream copy" mode.

VirtualDub filters work in RGB. Huffyuv can save VirtualDub output as either RGB or YUY2. The colorspace for DVD/BluRay is YV12 (which huffyuv can't use), so a DVD encoder will downsample RGB or YUY2 to YV12. Some software makes that conversion cleanly, others don't do it so well. I do that in Avisynth, or else I save VDub output to YV12 with Lagarith or UT Video codec.

The most frequently used frame sizes for DVD are 720x480 or 704x480 NTSC (720x576/704x576 PAL). If you capture at 640x480, that frame size is invalid for DVD and the encoder will resize the video. That's another area where some software doesn't do so well, especially with interlaced media.

I don't use all-in-one NLE's or conversion apps, instead I use separate apps for encoding, authoring, burning. An all-in-one app that seems to work well is AVS2DVD, but it's been years since I used it. AVS2DVD uses Avisynth for input (its own version is furnished with the package and doesn't affect any version of Avisynth if you already installed one), uses two or three different encoders of your choice including HCenc, uss another built-in for creating DVD folders and menus, and uses its own version of ImgBurn to burn discs.

A brief explanation of how to view and use the VDub capture histogram and how to use it is in this post: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post43646. Scroll down in that post to find the image of the capture histogram and nore info about it. Whether you use the tbc or not, invalid "y" levels are often impossible to repair after capture. If values are clipped (destroyed) during capture your video won't have the dynamic range or "snap" that it could have. Captures are tweaked for color and other elements after capture anyway.

Streaming: I use an Oppo player as well, which works with either MPEG or h.264 encodes. But most of my DVD's are on disc.
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  #8  
05-11-2016, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
The values on the non-TBC image look hot, crushed, and possibly illegal. That can be a side effect of a TBC. It has to do with timing and AGC. Since the timing now corrected, AGC isn't allowed to do whatever it wants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
Capture cards and VCRs both use AGCs.
Okay, now I think I understand. Since the non-TBC capture is not correcting the timing, the AGC on the capture card may negatively affect the picture more than it would have if the TBC was present?


Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
The AVT-8710 has a side effect of raising blacks and lowering the contrast, even when the source is a DVD player. It isn't related to VCR timing.
Thanks! This is good to know. As LS points out in there, though, each AVT unit has the potential to be a little different (not to mention how it interacts with my specific VCR). I guess I may end up finding my own TBC adjustments that end up being the sweet spot on most (I hope!) tapes.

Hopefully, I'll get a good technique down for making compensating adjustments after I get a better feel on what to do after viewing the histogram (or rather several histograms) for a given tape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Still images often are sufficient, but in some cases you should submit a short clip of unaltered YUY2 capture, which you can do in VirtualDub with lossles AVI and "direct stream copy" mode.
sanlyn, you absolutely rock! Thank you for spending so much time with the detailed responses. I am digesting and reading up on everything you pointed me to. In the mean time, I am attaching some short clips (done with "direct stream copy" mode and then "Save as AVI".)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Streaming: I use an Oppo player as well, which works with either MPEG or h.264 encodes. But most of my DVD's are on disc.
Just to clarify, I don't anticipate making many DVDs. I will make them if family want copies of some of the videos and don't want to stream off their own devices... but, as far as I'm concerned, almost all playback will be off my Oppo using whatever encoding is suited best for streaming to a HD TV.

Thanks, everyone!


Attached Files
File Type: avi no-tbc_bday_clip.avi (17.63 MB, 5 downloads)
File Type: avi tbc-after-reset_bday_clip.avi (18.08 MB, 3 downloads)
File Type: avi no-tbc_game_clip.avi (30.04 MB, 2 downloads)
File Type: avi tbc_game_clip.avi (29.86 MB, 3 downloads)

Last edited by rf99; 05-11-2016 at 12:45 PM. Reason: added additional thought on AGC and TBCs
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05-11-2016, 05:55 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Thanks for those avi samples. They give more detailed information to work with.

Three of the samples have out of bounds luma levels. The images below have Avisynth simple YUV histograms attached. Thye luma portion of the histogram is the white badn at the top of the graph. The luma band resembles VDub's capture histogram. The unshaded portion of the graph on the left and right sides indicates data that exceeds the 16-235 range. The central portion is the safe zone. The black borders of the original frames are cropped off to avoid affecting the histogram.

frame 61 from the no-tbc birthday avi shows highlights in the unsafe zone at the right of the YUV graph. This effect doesn't last long, because the camera's AGC severely darkens the image near the end when the bright gift card appears in the frame. Sudden AGC luminance changes are known as "pumping".


Frame 61 from the tbc-birthday version. It's a little more greenish but at least your AVT's usual behavior kept brights in the safe range -- a nice little accident, if nothing else.


Frame 47 from the no-tbc game avi. Darks and brights both overrun into the unsafe zone. The video is oversharpened and looks somewhat "etched". It looks dim despite the y-levels overrun, and has a heavy purplish color cast. Red is oversaturated, skin tones are weird...and so forth.


Frame 47 from the tbc version of the game avi. Y-levels are little better but still out of range. Red is somewhat more subdued, but otherwise the video has the same problems its no-tbc mate.


The idea with color work and other tweaks later is not to make two videos such as these look identical, but to make each look "correct" according to your preference, with convincing color and valid luma and chroma values.

I made some corrections using the tbc-reset version of the birthday clip, attached as tbc_reset_bday.mp4. Most of the work was in VirtualDub in this case. Not easy color problems to correct, as somehow the autowhite in the camera or else the local lighting made a mess of the histogram and skin tones look weird, with glassy highlights in facial features. Took some patient fiddling to make things look natural. At least the mp4 demonstrates the possibilities with post-capture tweaks.

I made corrections on both of the ballgame avi's, more or less to show that in some ways they look identical, in others they don't, but they still play better than the captures. Both had to take a ride with Avisynth and VirtualDub to look better, but they're still too sharp. Attached as no_tbc_game.mp4 and tbc_game.mp4. Things are easier with better levels control during capture. As for precise color correction, don't even think about it with analog tape during capture or you'll be a basket case in no time.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg no_tbc_bday 61.jpg (33.0 KB, 117 downloads)
File Type: jpg tbc_reset_bday 61.jpg (32.4 KB, 116 downloads)
File Type: jpg no tbc game 47.jpg (54.4 KB, 118 downloads)
File Type: jpg tbc game 47.jpg (52.9 KB, 119 downloads)
Attached Files
File Type: mp4 tbc_reset_bday.mp4 (1.40 MB, 4 downloads)
File Type: mp4 no_tbc_game.mp4 (2.31 MB, 1 downloads)
File Type: mp4 tbc_game.mp4 (2.32 MB, 2 downloads)
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  #10  
05-11-2016, 06:47 PM
rf99 rf99 is offline
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Thank you for taking the time to do this! Color certainly seems to look more real. I will look at these in more detail when I get home.

I agree that I don't want to become a basket case trying to do precise color correction.

The real question for me is, what (if anything) I should do during capture? It sounds like your overall suggestion is to leave the AVT's settings at default, and then use VirtualDub's level controls to have the capture card adjust as it captures... and to base those controls off of what I'm seeing in the histograms for the video (as a whole).

And, based on what I'm seeing in other posts, I may find myself doing some similar adjustments over and over, due to the AVT-8710's nature.

To be quite frank, I was hoping to get to where I could make some adjustments to the levels for each tape... capture it... and feel that it is good enough for now. Maybe someday down the line, when I feel more comfortable with various restoration techniques, I could go back and work on the captures. But, for now, my family could at least enjoy the videos... and know that I have as good of a capture as I am going to get from these tapes. (Again, having adjusted the levels when capturing.)

But, I was surprised at how the AVT seemed to be making things look a little more grey/greenish, and wasn't sure if:
1. that's just how the camera originally recorded them
2. the AVT was making things worse
3. the AVT was making things better (and that it was the absence of the TBC was causing artificial effects due to timing/AGC issues as LS mentioned back at the top of the thread)

It does look like the AVT is helping to keep luma in the safe range, but is it making the color better or worse? (I'm still not sure.) Either way, it sounds like keeping the AVT in play is the way to go, but that I am going to need to make some levels corrections while capturing every tape for sure.

Last edited by rf99; 05-11-2016 at 07:01 PM.
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05-11-2016, 07:22 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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You should be making adjustments for at least nominally valid levels with every tape during capture whether you use the AVT, another tbc, or no tbc. Most tapes will need similar adjustments, many will need something more, or something less. If it were routinely possible to make perfectly color balanced and noiseless, glitch-free captures from analog tape, there would be no need for restoration forums.

Color differences with or without the AVT aren't major, IMO. In one sample it made changes in one direction (greenish, but the original was already greenish anyway), in the other it helped a bit with hot reds. I see people talk often about the AVT's AGC action. I haven't seen it. Someone will probably throw a link at us showing all kinds of test patch results, but it doesn't change the fact that a tbc is necessary and each tbc will have one problem or another. Short of outright malfunction, everyone who uses an external tbc, including the big boys at Disney, has to make some kind allowance for the device.

Last edited by sanlyn; 05-11-2016 at 07:32 PM.
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  #12  
08-25-2016, 11:40 PM
rf99 rf99 is offline
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Was away from this project for a bit (we had a baby!), but I finally am able to get back to this.

Your information has truly been invaluable. Thank you!

We last left off that I now have a good working setup, and am trying to get the best captures I can so that I do not have to deal with the tapes anymore. I accept that I will be spending a lot more time in the future trying to do color correction (and other editing), but for now I just want to adjust levels in VirtualDub before capture so that I can have as high quality of a capture as possible.

You have given great instruction on this, and thank you for the recent VirtualDub settings posts as well!

Just one last request for advice before I finally start capturing from my tapes. Is adjusting the brightness and contrast as simple as:

1. using brightness to control the black levels so that they're not in the red zone
2. using contrast to control the brights so that they're not in the red zone

And, should I be doing the minimal adjustment to maintain having the levels in the safe zone as much as possible for the tape (maybe by jumping around and testing some various scenes to find a good average)?

Finally, should I expect that sometimes I won't be 100% in the safe zone... but try and get adjustments that result in almost everything being in the safe zone except any weird outliers that occasionally happen?

I'm just wondering if I have a graph where 99% is in the safe zone on average... but there is a tiny outlier that is far into the red zone, should I bother adjusting the brightness/contrast affecting the other 99%? (Or is this subjective?)

Thanks, again!
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08-25-2016, 11:59 PM
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Congrats on the kiddo.

Software-based proc amps on capture aren't ideal. The better choice is hardware-based, even ones inside of TBCs (AVT-8710, TBC-3000, etc). The reason? The software ones rarely work correctly. And it adds overhead to the CPU, and can cause dropped frames. You can try, but it may not work as desired.

Yeah, this is great: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...-settings.html
I'll be making a guide for VirtualDub, and asked a few members for their input on it.
sanlyn did a great job there.

I always forget if "brightness" or "contrast" is the IRE (aka black level) adjust. They use dummy terms, and mask the actual video jargon.

Yes, minimal adjustments on capture to keep everything legal values.

Homeshot footage is rarely 100% (or even 75%), but the same can apply to other sources. TV isn't perfect, nor were the tapes and VCRs used to record.

Even pro Hollywood movies aren't 99%, and that's often due to artistic license. 90% is a good target. I'm referring to everything from gamma to IRE to white balance (color cast/tint issue). That last one is a major issue for home-shot video. Of all the formats, Hi8 always looks best, even more than DV (digital tape, but still consumer and tape).

Don't have low expectations, but don't have too-high ones either!

FYI: "safe zone" is generally jargon to refer to overscan, and safe content placement so as not to show borders. You're using that term wrong, so I mention it so as not to confuse others. You really mean "values" (or "legal values"), referring to IRE/contrast/etc here.

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  #14  
08-26-2016, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Congrats on the kiddo.
Thanks, lordsmurf! =P

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
FYI: "safe zone" is generally jargon to refer to overscan, and safe content placement so as not to show borders. You're using that term wrong, so I mention it so as not to confuse others. You really mean "values" (or "legal values"), referring to IRE/contrast/etc here.
Whoops. Got it!


Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Software-based proc amps on capture aren't ideal. The better choice is hardware-based, even ones inside of TBCs (AVT-8710, TBC-3000, etc). The reason? The software ones rarely work correctly. And it adds overhead to the CPU, and can cause dropped frames. You can try, but it may not work as desired.
This makes sense. So, I will preview in VirtualDub (cropping out the edge noise during preview only), and make adjustments to brightness/contrast directly with the AVT-8710 based on what I see in the histogram.

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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Yeah, this is great: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...-settings.html
I'll be making a guide for VirtualDub, and asked a few members for their input on it.
sanlyn did a great job there.
Yeah, I can't echo enough how valuable that is for newbies like me. I had actually gathered a lot of the same settings from elsewhere in the forums (and from the How to Capture AVI Video in VirtualDub guide), but to have all of those detailed settings in one place is amazing. Thank you, sanlyn, and to everyone else who will contribute!

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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Yes, minimal adjustments on capture to keep everything legal values.

Homeshot footage is rarely 100% (or even 75%), but the same can apply to other sources. TV isn't perfect, nor were the tapes and VCRs used to record.

Even pro Hollywood movies aren't 99%, and that's often due to artistic license. 90% is a good target. I'm referring to everything from gamma to IRE to white balance (color cast/tint issue). That last one is a major issue for home-shot video. Of all the formats, Hi8 always looks best, even more than DV (digital tape, but still consumer and tape).
Interesting. So to make sure I understand... you're suggesting that keeping about 90% in legal values is a good target? Or did I misunderstand? I was going to try and get a lot closer to 99% where possible... but not to the point that I unnecessarily affect most values that would already be legal just to get a tiny outlier in range. For example... in sanlyn's "Frame 47 from the tbc version" up above, the brights are still fairly out of range, and I'd expect to make adjustments there. Probably on the darks, too, a little. But, it looks like well over 90% of the values are already legal there to begin with.

Also, this brings to question whether I should be doing adjustments to tint and color on the AVT-8710, too.

Is there a good method for measuring how much (and in what ways) to adjust the tint/color? (I was planning on using VirtualDub's capture histogram to see how I should adjust the brightness/contrast for capture. Is there something similar to use?) Or would tint/color be okay to adjust post-capture at a later date?


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Don't have low expectations, but don't have too-high ones either!
Hah. I'm definitely trying to find the right balance here of getting the best quality out of the captures without losing too much sanity. =P

Thanks!
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  #15  
08-26-2016, 01:05 AM
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The closer you can get to 100%, sure, go for it. But don't chase the impossible. All things considered, 90% is often a fair target for homemade VHS sources. Simple histogram values for IRE/brightness/contrast probably can be about 95%+.

The thing to remember is that everything is connected. Adjusting one value offsets the other. So it can be impossible to tweak each individual value to 100% perfection (or 99%). Like I always say, restoration is about making something better (hopefully much better!), not perfect.

Proc amps can rarely fix white balance issues. That's pure software work. In the analog days, it had to be shot right, period. There was no way to fix mistakes like that.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
The closer you can get to 100%, sure, go for it. But don't chase the impossible. All things considered, 90% is often a fair target for homemade VHS sources. Simple histogram values for IRE/brightness/contrast probably can be about 95%+.

The thing to remember is that everything is connected. Adjusting one value offsets the other. So it can be impossible to tweak each individual value to 100% perfection (or 99%). Like I always say, restoration is about making something better (hopefully much better!), not perfect.

Proc amps can rarely fix white balance issues. That's pure software work. In the analog days, it had to be shot right, period. There was no way to fix mistakes like that.
Got it! So stick to adjusting brightness and contrast using the AVT-8710, but leave the tint and color settings at default... and then start tackling other adjustments like white balance issues post-capture? Assuming I have that right, I'll give this all a go tomorrow.

Thanks, and have a good night!
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08-26-2016, 01:23 AM
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Assuming that your TV or computer monitor is calibrated, let your eyes be the judge.

And don't forget most all modern TVs have the ability to quickly alter many of these values on playback, if they not to your liking. I do it all the time on footage, and I refer to commercial sources (DVD, Blu-ray, streaming, etc).

Histograms are tools, not bibles. Histograms can be wrong (visually), even if not scientifically.

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08-26-2016, 04:54 PM
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Thanks! So, I was about to start capturing, but noticed that I am sometimes seeing what I can only describe as a scrolling pattern. Attached is a capture from VirtualDub to demonstrate. (No tape is playing... this is just the "stopped" screen from the VCR.) In this particular capture, the scrolling is downward, and moving relatively quickly.

Sometimes the scrolling is slow... sometimes it is fast. Sometimes the scrolling moves upward... and sometimes it moves downward. Sometimes the scrolling stops all together, which is what I would expect.

I've tried to make sure that there are no electronics next to the VCR or the TBC. I am using Mono-price 3ft S-Video cables, to try and minimize issues. I've also tried to make sure that any power cables for the devices are separated from the video cables.

Is this a sign of some sort of external interference?

It's strange, because there doesn't seem to be any consistency. And, like I said, sometimes the scrolling does seem to stop... which makes me think I need to eliminate it before capturing video.

-- merged --

And sure enough, right after positing that last message, the scrolling stopped. Here's a new capture that shows none of that scrolling pattern.

I'm wondering if it only happens after starting up the equipment. I have noticed the scrolling for a little while after turning everything on... and then it seems to disappear a few minutes after. (Though, I don't know yet if it eventually comes back.)

-- merged --

Besides the scrolling issue (which, btw, I haven't seen much of since posting), I have been trying to figure out the best way to adjust input audio levels for the capture.

It looks like I can control the recording audio level via the Santa Cruz control panel. It is currently at about 60% (or whatever the default is). When I turn on the Volume Meter in VirtualDub, I see the sound levels bouncing around on most tapes getting to about -20db. Since it doesn't seem to bounce all the way to the right (0db), I don't appear to be getting any clipping.

However, I do have some tapes with low volume (often from a PA system which didn't get picked up very well by the camcorder's microphone). I think that I'd like the volume to be louder (even though I'm likely to pick up more camera/background noise), but I'm not sure when to make those adjustments.

Do most people adjust the recording audio level per tape before capturing by adjusting the input audio level?

Or, do you tend to just always leave it in at some default 50-75% (which is what most of the guides seemed to recommend), and then adjust post-capture afterwards (maybe using something like Soundforge to also remove any camera hiss)?

If you do it before capturing, how do you typically find a good level to record at? (Just by whatever sounds good, or do you do rely on some other tools to determine how to adjust the level?)

Thanks!


Attached Files
File Type: avi scrolling.avi (49.26 MB, 8 downloads)
File Type: avi scrolling2.avi (39.99 MB, 6 downloads)
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08-27-2016, 01:38 PM
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You have a power interference pattern. It could be anywhere. So let's start here:
- Is everything on the battery of a UPS?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
You have a power interference pattern. It could be anywhere. So let's start here:
- Is everything on the battery of a UPS?
No UPS here. Is that the usual recommendation to get a clean, consistent power source?

The fact that it looks like power interference might also make sense with the fact that I mainly saw it on the startup of all of my equipment, when there would be the largest power draws.

-- merged --

Just ordered a Cyberpower cp1500pfclcd, which I had been meaning to get to replace a bad APC for my main computer anyhow. I haven't seen that interference in the last day, but it will still be good to get all of the equipment on a UPS with AVR.

Still have the questions above on audio levels if anyone is able to give their thoughts.

Thanks as always!!
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