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03-21-2018, 09:06 PM
Chickensalad39 Chickensalad39 is offline
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I have been trying to transfer my tapes to hard disc, I bought a diamond capture card and I have been having trouble with tapes stoping due to fake Copy Protection errors, these are not commercial tapes.

The most recent problem I have encountered is that I was trying to transfer a tape that looks almost clean, no errors save a few lines, and while it looks fine on tv, on the computer I get blue Venetian blinds at random times and eventually the picture turns to black static.

I know that it probably another type of copy error but all the answers I find are unusable, either due to price or availability.

Any advice?

-- merged --

To clarify the capture software stops not the tape, and my setup is basically a Diamond vc500 and an Orion vcr.
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  #2  
03-22-2018, 07:59 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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TVs are media players. Capture devices are not media players. They expect clean signal timing and will not correct for timing errors. Don't blame the VC500, which is a decent device. You need an external frame-level TBC and something better than the Orion, which is outputiting timing errors.
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  #3  
03-22-2018, 09:57 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Analog video signals were very chaotic. TVs expected it, and compensated for it.

Capture cards have no such compensation. It shows you the raw analog video stream, warts and all. You must purify the signal with timebase correction (TBC).

Orion VCRs were some of the worst VCRs ever made.

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  #4  
03-23-2018, 11:08 AM
Chickensalad39 Chickensalad39 is offline
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I figured as much, I need to figure out what would be the bare minimum I would need equipment.
I have look for TBCs but I've found that outside the Grex most are prohibitively expensive or reported to be defective, I have a lead on Panasonic DVD recorders that have pass thru, the e15 model, but I don't know if either would be sufficient.


Any advice?
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  #5  
03-23-2018, 11:20 AM
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I have some equipment available, so PM me.

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  #6  
03-23-2018, 01:12 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Analog video signals were very chaotic. TVs expected it, and compensated for it.
Fun fact: Early production TVs were not very tolerant of VCR output. Even they expect a stable signal. Vintage TV collectors run into the same problems occasionally with VHS playback. Later TVs were much more lenient to accommodate video tape playback. The solution for them is the same, a full frame TBC.
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  #7  
03-23-2018, 08:29 PM
Chickensalad39 Chickensalad39 is offline
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I am actually more interested in getting information about various opinions first, and I don't purchase thru forum as a rule sorry.

Like I said i have a lead on a Panasonic recorder that I've seen recommend and most s vcr machines are two expensive to consider for my budget.

When of my concerns was wither or not the Grex TBC was sufficient.
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  #8  
03-23-2018, 08:44 PM
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The Grex is a piece of junk, not a TBC, and has well-known issues with flickering, IRE, contrast, etc.

You're really limiting yourself to the point where trying to convert tapes is just a waste of time. Consider sending it out for professional service, or just not doing it at all. You're simply not going to get anywhere as it stands.

Also:
- Video is a hobby, and requires money like any other hobby.
- And like other hobbies, sometimes special venues are required to acquire it (ie, forums dedicated to this specialized topic).

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  #9  
03-24-2018, 08:03 PM
Chickensalad39 Chickensalad39 is offline
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Unfortunately I am limited by necessity, I keep myself to a limited budget, as such I need to get all the information I need before I consider even looking, right now I am attempting to find out as much information as I can as to what I need to find.

I don't expect to be buying any equipment until summer when I have set aside enough money.

Right now I am trying to find out just what I need at least and see what I would have to work up to.

From what I have been able to learn so far it seems that the main piece of equipment I would need first is the TBC, after which I can then look for an S-VHS VCR, assuming I am understanding things correctly.
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  #10  
03-25-2018, 06:10 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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It looks as if you're stuck between a rock and a hard place, depending on where your fake copy protection is coming from. Likely it's coming from your Orion. But it could also be the tape, which if it's a tv recording could have tv transmission noise that's being interpreted as copy protection.

Let's say it's the tape or the noise on the recording. That definitely requires an external frame tbc. You could blame it on the Orion, but I hesitate on that score. I had a very well made, well kept non-SVHS Panasonic that tracked like a champ and made many hours of capture without a frame tbc, using a tbc pass-thru device. Then I encountered one tape out of dozens that was giving that setup some copy protection errors. So I zip out my external frame-level tbc, hook it up in the chain with the tbc pass-thru, and it's good to go. What this told me is that the fake signal came from the tape. And tbc pass-thru's like an ES10 or ES15 won't stop copy protection.

I'd head for the outboard frame tbc first. You'll need it anyway, and my experenice quoted above now has me using the frame tbc for everything, whether I'm using the pass-thru or not.

After that, you might keep your Orion and team it up with one of the pass-thru devicves I just mentioned to get line-tbc as well as a very composite-to-svideo conversion with the pass-thru's very good comb filter to stop composite dot crawl problems. That just might make your Orion's output look better and is cheaper than an SVHS machine in good working order which will, believe me, cost well into 3-figure territory, likely halfway to 4. You can get a used pass-thru device for less than 3 figures. It just might suffice until you get a better player, and you can always re-sell it in our marketplace if the pass-thru is still in working order.
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  #11  
03-25-2018, 10:29 AM
Chickensalad39 Chickensalad39 is offline
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I am saving up for an external TBC and I have a lead on an S VHS with a TBC Function.
I also have more VCRs besides the Orion, I have several different models and brands that I have saved over the years.
I even have a sharp VC A410 which is listed as having SVHS, but from what I can find that model lacks a TBC in addition to stereo.
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  #12  
03-25-2018, 12:30 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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It's good that you have other vcr's, even if they aren't "the best". Most experienced memberws here have multiple players. They've found that depending on a single machine is too limiting. If you invest in a tc pass-thru unit, usually a used, fairly inexpensive Panasonic ES10 or ES15, you would have line-level and frame-sync tbc thru one of those. They would mate with any vcr and they have good s-video output converters and y/c comb filters for composite input. Note that a pass-thru unit won't defeat copy protection if that's an issue. Pass-thru comes in handy if your primary machine isn't tracking a tape well (it happens) or is otherwise unavailable. Many times I've had a tape look better thru one of my non-tbc players than thru my primary blockbuster player. I had a little more tape noise to clean up afterward, but better tracking is always a plus.
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  #13  
03-25-2018, 01:28 PM
Chickensalad39 Chickensalad39 is offline
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Out of curiosity would a S VHS VCR matter if a person had an in line TBC?

I have a chance on a S VHS VCR with TBC but I have already meet my limit for the month so I can only justify it if I need it.
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  #14  
03-25-2018, 02:22 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Ultimately the quality of playback depends mostly on the quality of the VCR. There are some very good VCRs out there that don't have built-in tbc. TBC SVHS models are the highest price, and generally the best quality. But those machines are mighty expensive if in proper condition. You find big-time SVHS at auction sites all the time, but we have serious horror tales about what shows up in the box. Most of those players have been played to death. My best player is a Panasonic AG-1980, rebuilt by TGrantPhoto (highly recommended) and maintained once over the past few years. It costs plenty. But now and then I have a tape that doesn't make nice with the 1980, so I use my Panasonic PV-S4670 from 1996, rebuilt, a non-tbc SVHS machine that preceded the AG-1980, and used with an ES10 pass-thru tbc and external frame tbc. I'd say the playback and tracking are excellent, but it doesn't have the noise reduction of the 1980 -- which means I have some extra cleanup to do in post-processing with the 4670.

A decent mainstream VCR from a major maker will always look better with a line tbc and frame tbc of some level. A big high-end model will be nominally better and easier to post process, but not if that big-name player is in less than excellent shape.

If you have tapes recorded at slow recording speeds (4-hour, 6-hour), I'm afraid a Panasonic or Panny clone is your better choice. JVC never put much engineering into slower tape speeds. The best Pansonics were actually made in 1995 and 1996 with Dynamorphous metal heads and still show up in auction sites at reasonable prices, from people who specialize in electronics (if they also sell dinnerware, move on to another seller). After 1996, quality went rapidly downhill along with all the other brands except for some of the highest-end JVCs.

The short story is, if you can't find a high-end machine in good condition at a price you can possibly afford, you're better off with a mainstream name brand player that stands a better chance of being in good shape, with a tbc pass-thru and a frame-level tbc. Neither choice is easy thing to locate, but people here do manage to find good players. The safest place to buy is our forum's marketplace, or we recommend TGrant for high-end players.
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  #15  
03-25-2018, 02:53 PM
Chickensalad39 Chickensalad39 is offline
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The S VHS VCR that I found is a JVC HR-S7500 S-VHS VCR at a very good price, below 50 and that has one advantage over my Sharp one, stereo.

But the hanging question over my head is would buying a Dedicated TBC or a Panasonic and so forth make the others redundent.

I have found both a recommend VCR and a Panasonic each is very affordable but as it stands I can only purchase one at this time.
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  #16  
03-25-2018, 03:07 PM
Chickensalad39 Chickensalad39 is offline
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Also a semi related question, does it matter if a vcr has stereo or mono output?
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  #17  
03-25-2018, 03:15 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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If you don't need or appreciate stereo, it doesn't matter. On the other hand, consumer vcr's with mono audio tend to be low-tier machines.

Again, if you have slow-speed recorded tapes, that JVC 7500 is going to be a disappointment. Selling for a mere 50? Let us know how it turns out. Remember that JVC ended parts support for its VCR's more than 10 years ago.
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  #18  
03-25-2018, 03:26 PM
Chickensalad39 Chickensalad39 is offline
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So then the Panasonic Es10 would be a better choice then in terms of correcting timing errors?
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  #19  
03-25-2018, 04:16 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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For timing errors, not "better". As good as, let's say. ES10 and ES15 are the preferred models, with a slight nod favoring the ES10. I still say you can't see the difference between the two, and I've used both. Other recorders used as pass-thru won't be as powerful, if they work at all. But remember, pass-thru has frame sync capability but they're not allowed to remove copy protection errors. You still need an external frame level tbc for that if it occurs.

I'm surprised you haven't seen this long thread: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...hat-do-you-use


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03-25-2018, 05:16 PM
Chickensalad39 Chickensalad39 is offline
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I meant as opposed to the S VHR with TBC, that's what I am comparing, a regular vcr and a Panasonic as a pass thru, or I can by a S VCR with a TBC built in.

In either case I am considering buying an external TBC later when I have saved up, I was going to wait in regards to the other machines as well but a person must take advantage of deals as the come and I am trying to determine which would be more important.

In short if I am going to buy an external TBC later on anyway will either or any of these be worth my time.

Last edited by Chickensalad39; 03-25-2018 at 05:58 PM.
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