VHS captures occasionally drops frames?

[crissrudd4554]

I’m starting this thread per the suggestion of another user. Anyways I have been tinkering with VHS captures for quite sometime but the captures I’ve been doing for the past two years have occasional minor skips which when viewed frame by frame reveal 1-2 frames have been dropped undetected by the softwares I use. I had done captures in the past that did not seem to have this problem and it’s just puzzling.

I’m beginning to suspect it may be the Panasonic DME-ES15 DVD Recorder that I’ve been using as a TBC like pass through which may be the problem. Two months ago I decided to record a VHS with the DVD Recorder and burn a disc with the machine so no computer or capture devices were involved. Test watching the disc I found a skip about 8 minutes in and found that a frame was missing between these two shots.

2776DE6C-5B7D-4BB7-8D44-BCEF54145AA9.jpeg

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Here’s the missing from a capture done on a capture device with the DVD Recorder as a pass through.

0DC91F63-9D0D-4CB2-9F19-B8B649321129.jpeg

For a closer examination I have clips from both recordings in the link below. The skip is at 00:00:08;01 mark of clip 1 though it is a bit hard to detect on a computer unless viewed frame by frame. Watching on a TV may make it stand out more.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!Ao7ljwxhBJ_miGg_bkxYtRxp9UV7

Next is another example from a different tape. Both done with capture devices with the DVD Recorder. Skip occurs at 00:00:05;08 of clip 3.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!Ao7ljwxhBJ_miGkg40UKflQixwf2

Sometime hopefully this weekend I plan to do a test capture without the DVD Recorder just to see if I detect any skips. If it still does than we may have a deeper issue than I thought. Perhaps a legit TBC unit is what I need?? I doubt changing up the VCR will do anything since Ive tested at least 6 VCR’s last year and the skips still occurred. For what it’s worth the two VCR’s I’m currently using are a Samsung VR8409 and a Sharp VC-H992. The Samsung IMO has somewhat better quality than the Sharp although the signal is better with the Sharp when capturing with my WinTV capture device sans the DVD Recorder. Below comes from the same tape and were all capture with a WinTV HVR 850 capture device.

Samsung VR8409 (with pass through)

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Samsung VR8409 (no pass through)

EB6203AC-8007-4D69-ACDB-41F604768DE0.jpeg

Sharp VC-H992 (no pass through)

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Pretty interesting huh and for the record no the Sharp does not have a built in TBC (as far as I know). Anyways who knows what the issue may be. Is the TBC the issue?? Maybe something else?? Any thoughts?? Is it possible this is as good as it gets and I just need to leave it at that??

[hodgey]

DVRs and TBCs for that matter can also drop/insert frames in some cases. Not familiar enough with the ES15 that I can say much about the issue though.

Quote:

Pretty interesting huh and for the record no the Sharp does not have a built in TBC (as far as I know).

I have 2 Radionette (LG-made) VHS recorders that do something similar, the output from them is much more stable than with other VCRs. My 2009 LG VHS/DVD combo deck does not do this. Not nearly as effective at removing horizontal jiggling as the TBCs in the S-VHS decks or the DVRs, but they do seem to do something with the signal. It's not like a full frame sync like a TBC or DVR though, as you still get instability if the signal on the tape is really bad or there are breaks on the tape. Whatever these decks also seems to prevent any line-tbc further down in the chain to have any effect. Maybe the Sharp deck has some similar function.

[crissrudd4554]

I did do a test DVD about a month ago with the Sharp without the DVD Recorder as a pass through and yes while the signal was definitely better than capturing on the Samsung without the DVD Recorder the video was still jittery and jumpy in spots so it’s not perfect. Additionally about 2-3 months I had bought a JVC VCR (don’t know the model number off hand) and like the Sharp it had a pretty good capture signal without the use of the DVD Recorder. However I ended up trashing that VCR after it killed two of my tapes.

[lordsmurf]

Lack of TBC probably is the issue. Not all capture hardware/software drops, just inserts/repeats instead. This is why S-VHS VCR with line TBC + external frame sync TBC is suggested for capture.

Samsung VR8409 without is terrible.
The Sharp just has a better transport, signal more stable. But in motion, it's extremely likely to still have timing/wiggle issues.

Sharp + ES15 + external TBC probably better yet.

[crissrudd4554]

Will a real TBC actually improve the ES15 though?? Only reason I'm asking is because as I mentioned earlier I still managed to record a VHS with the DVD Recorder without a capture device and the skip was still there. As you mentioned, skips like that can still go undetected by softwares but in this case no software was involved. So if the skip is a result of the DVD Recorder is a real TBC guaranteed to fix that??

As far as a S-VHS player goes I've basically nixed that idea unfortunately. I tried two suggested models last year and was displeased with the picture quality. Below is a capture from one of them and as you can see the image is horrible. Also given that I bought probably 3 more regular VCR's last year (one of which I returned and another I threw out) I'm not up for getting another VCR at the moment.

vlcsnap-2019-01-28-10h42m47s125.png

[lordsmurf]

Likely? Yes.
Guaranteed? No. If you want a guarantee, you're in the wrong hobby.

What model S-VHS deck did you try? Merely being S-VHS is not enough. Some S-VHS decks can be worse than high-end consumer VHS decks, being that the low-end S-VHS is really just consumer grade as well.

[crissrudd4554]

The first S-VHS player I tried was a JVC S3600U which I ended up returning. The picture quality was not nearly as bad as the image I posted above but could be better. The second was a Panasonic AG1970P which is where the image above was captured from.

-- update --

Correction. It was a JVC ET S7800U VCR.