Old videocassette does not play?

[Gary34]

The lead came off this tape. I saw a video saying these cassettes are cheaply made and have trouble. Can I transplant the tape to something with different size reels? Thanks for any information on this.

[lordsmurf]

It's just a VHS tape, nothing special (neither good nor bad) about the reels. Unless the reels or clamshell has defects, then I'd simply in-place fix it. No need to waste another tape shell/reels for it.

[Gary34]

It wouldn’t play in my Panasonic so I opened the top of the VCR. It gave me an F05 error. The tape was loose in the VCR so I lifted it up. Then I pushed eject and it came out easily. I fast forwarded it in my rewinder VCR and it tore the lead loose. It freaked me out and I think I’m overthinking it now.

I saw this https://youtu.be/zabWwy4A96E?si=6eKo4owgrbmV7R1f but I just wanna ask about stuff here because this has been by far the most accurate source of information throughout this whole process.

[lordsmurf]

Eh....

That video is essentially showing why cheap crappy VHS tapes are cheap crappy VHS tapes. Clamshell construction is one of many reasons why cheap tapes were problems for both play and record. His advice is accurate, but also not necessarily needed.

Read the comments. This is easier, and this usually works:
"This method works great, but if you want to save yourself a lot of hassle, try just loosening the 5 screws just a little bit to reduce the pressure of the warped cassette case. Just takes a little...about the thickness of a business card gap showing all the way around. Works great for me!"

Tolerances inside VCRs are tiny, less than 1mm for almost everything. So how proper do you think the torque was on a tape than literally cost 13 cent to make? (Seriously, coins of cost, I still have some bulk tape flyer ads in a folder, those T-30 tapes were about 25 cents bought in bulks of 500. And yes, I bought bulk tapes in the 90s, though not the cheapest Fuji/no-name crap.)

However....

What does this have to do with your issue? You have a re-spool situation, not a squealing tape issue, right?

[Gary34]

Quote:

What does this have to do with your issue? You have a re-spool situation, not a squealing tape issue, right?

Good point.

-- merged --

Well it wouldn’t play right off the bat though so it’s not really just a re-spool. I tried to play it in my Panasonic before I fast forwarded it and tore the lead. I am going to let my crap vcr play that one first after it’s fixed.

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

The lead came off this tape. I saw a video saying these cassettes are cheaply made and have trouble. Can I transplant the tape to something with different size reels? Thanks for any information on this.

Yes that could be done. But the leader broke for a reason. Leader tapes are thicker and stronger than the magnetic tape and normally do not break or stretch.

But later model VCR's only sensed fast wind tape speed indirectly by measuring the reel rotation speed which is only accurate with normal sized VHS reel hubs. Possibly the leader broke off by the tape being wound very fast in a later model VCR which was fooled by the large core reels into thinking the tape was running slower than it actually was, and the VCR failed to slow the tape down enough before the end of the tape was reached. Bang! The leader was ripped off the reel.

Also the very fast wind VCR's result in a very poor, ragged tape wind on the reel, which is not good for the tape especially in long term storage. The best wind for a tape is immediately after playing the tape right through at normal viewing speed. Not fast wound. This has been understood as good practice ever since magnetic tape was widely used around the late 1940's and the practice came to be called a "play wind" or a "library wind".

[Gary34]

I lifted the plastic piece where the leader broke and stuck that through then clamped it back in and didn’t screw the screws in as much. The tape plays fine now. It was super simple stuff. Just new to me. Anyways thanks guys.

[timtape]

That's great but it's even better to learn what caused the damage to prevent it happening again!

[Gary34]

The problem is too much friction. The guy in the video reduces the friction by reducing the surface area under the reel. LS suggested to reduce the friction by reducing the pressure pushing the reels down.

Those kind of reels aren’t really common. I’ll loosen up the screws next time.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

Leader tapes are thicker and stronger than the magnetic tape and normally do not break or stretch.

On cheaply made tapes, not always true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

I lifted the plastic piece where the leader broke and stuck that through then clamped it back in and didn’t screw the screws in as much. The tape plays fine now. It was super simple stuff. Just new to me. Anyways thanks guys.

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

It wouldn’t play in my Panasonic so I opened the top of the VCR. It gave me an F05 error. The tape was loose in the VCR so I lifted it up. Then I pushed eject and it came out easily. I fast forwarded it in my rewinder VCR and it tore the lead loose...

I missed that you fast wound it in a rewinder and that's when the leader broke. VHS VCR's have optical sensors which are designed to stop the tape just before the clear leader comes to the end. Possibly the rewinder doesnt sense the clear leader coming up so the full force of the motor can rip the leader off the reel.
My guess is the leader broke in the rewinder because of the rewinder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

I saw this https://youtu.be/zabWwy4A96E?si=6eKo4owgrbmV7R1f but I just wanna ask about stuff here because this has been by far the most accurate source of information throughout this whole process.

At 2:05 he says the reels scrape on the case bottom. That's true when the cassette is out of the VCR. But when the cassette is loaded in the VCR the reels are raised a few millimeters clear of the plastic case. So there is no friction there because there is no contact. If the reels werent lifted clear, the VCR couldnt operate as it should.

[Gary34]

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I missed that you fast wound it in a rewinder.

I call it a rewinder VCR because I just use it for rewinding. It’s a JVC HR-A591U.

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When the cassette is loaded in the VCR the reels are raised a few millimeters clear of the plastic case.

Now I am wondering why changing the cassette would improve the way that it plays. If the reels aren’t touching the bottom of the cassette anyways then why would if matter if the surface was flat or rigid?

[timtape]

I understand now. It was a VCR rewinding the tape.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

Now I am wondering why changing the cassette would improve the way that it plays. If the reels aren’t touching the bottom of the cassette anyways then why would if matter if the surface was flat or rigid?

True, it shouldnt matter. It's also why there shouldnt be any need to leave the case screws loose as the reels should already be floating above the cassette bottom once the cassette is in the VCR.

The finger like metal springs in a VHS cassette are there to make sure the reels locate snugly on the VCR's reel tables so the reels dont jump or wobble around and correct height is maintained. But the springs are definitely not there to change the heights of the reels. It's not their job.

Loosening the case screws might allow the top half of the cassette to sit a little higher which will slightly weaken the downwards spring pressure on the reel centres but it shouldnt change the actual reel heights which are determined by the heights of the VCR reel tables underneath them.

There might be borderlines cases where the VCR reel tables are sitting a little lower than standard and because of production tolerances some cassettes do start to scrape on the cassette bottom. But again with decks and cassettes working as they should this doesnt normally happen.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

But when the cassette is loaded in the VCR the reels are raised a few millimeters clear of the plastic case.

But if it's too tight, not enough room, lift is limited. Again, this is just cheap and/or warped thin plastic tapes, which was common on these sub-T60 sizes.

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

But if it's too tight, not enough room, lift is limited. Again, this is just cheap and/or warped thin plastic tapes, which was common on these sub-T60 sizes.

Unless I had the deck and the cassette on my bench to test them properly I wouldn't pretend to know what is going on here with absolute certainty.

[Gary34]

My Panasonic 1980p ag plays tapes really well. The deck isn’t the issue. It’s the tape. There isn’t enough room in that cassette so it can’t push the reels off of the bottom of the cassette plastic and it’s creating too much friction. When I loosened the screws or allowed separation between the reels and the cassette.

The important thing is that the tape is working now. This has been interesting seeing how much my proc amp and gear is helping on these tapes from the 80s that my mom shot in EP on what I’m pretty sure is a cheap camera. All the gear my tapes were shot on isn’t great and they are all EP but this is making a big difference. They would have been awful if I would have tried another method. Thank you both for your help.

[aramkolt]

I'd be curious to hear about your proc amp process and what model it is? Is it more about looking at a screen and putting black and white levels where it seems like they should be or do you use a vectorscope/waveform monitor of any sort?

What I've noticed is that even commercial tapes can have luminance levels come out as high as 120IRE when the max is really supposed to be 100IRE, so using a proc amp mainly for black and white levels can be good (or even necessary if you're getting clipping). You'd think AGC inside the VCR would bump that down to 100IRE, but even the higher end VCRs don't seem to mind passing out of spec video levels.

Where I'm not clear is if "software" proc amp settings for the capture card can be just as good as a hardware proc amp as long as there's no clipping? You'd think eliminating a device from the chain would be better, but the software proc amp settings for capture cards don't seem to get talked about as much.

Also seems like there are relatively few proc amps out there that have S-Video inputs. Sign video ones get recommended a lot, but seems they rarely come up for sale. If the TBC you're using has a proc amp, it seems reasonable to use that especially if you have a waveform monitor/vectorscope to check levels.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

What I've noticed is that even commercial tapes can have luminance levels

The VCR, TBC, and capture cards can also induce or add to it. And it can change based on tape properties.

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Where I'm not clear is if "software" proc amp settings for the capture card can be just as good as a hardware proc amp

No, different. Software proc amp is essentially post-digitize, not analog domain.

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eliminating a device from the chain

Why? Too much is made of A<>D or colorspace, and has become recent dogmatic hooey.

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Also seems like there are relatively few proc amps out there that have S-Video inputs.

Yep, and several have major quirks.

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Sign video ones get recommended a lot, but seems they rarely come up for sale.

Delicate design, most failed due to hamfisted users. I have one here with a screwy knob that I may put in the marketplace, for a decent discount (but I'm giving it away for $50 or anything absurd).

Quote:

If the TBC you're using has a proc amp, it seems reasonable to use that especially if you have a waveform monitor/vectorscope to check levels.

nicholaserra told me he actually scopes his DataVideo before each use, as he's observed tiny value changes between sessions. I don't see need to be that exact, it's analog (some % of leeway), but interesting nonetheless.

[Gary34]

Quote:

I'd be curious to hear about your proc amp process and what model it is? Is it more about looking at a screen and putting black and white levels where it seems like they should be or do you use a vectorscope/waveform monitor of any sort?

Mine is a TBC 3000. That being said if someone wants to know what to buy ask Smurf. Don’t go grab something because someone like me that has only done a few tapes says they like the one they have. I see a bunch of bad eBay buys especially with the Panasonic 1980s.

I use the histogram in virtualdub 1.9. It’s in the Virtualdub settings guide that sanlyn made. With my VHS-C they are all shot indoors with the same camera and the histogram doesn’t fluctuate much from scene to scene or even tape to tape from what I’ve seen so far. With my full size tapes that are mainly from the 80s i am going to capture in segments and adjust the proc amp because they are shot outdoors and have jump cuts to different times of the day. The histogram is all over the place on some of them.

I don’t own a waveform monitor of vectorscope. I had seen this and I decided not to get one https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...-monitors.html. They do have a software vectroscope in Avisynth but it’s obviously post capture.

[aramkolt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

I use the histogram in virtualdub 1.9. It’s in the Virtualdub settings guide that sanlyn made.

Do you happen to have a link to Sanlyn's guide that you use? I'll have to check that out.