TRV120 D8 won't play 8mm tapes, another recommended camcorder?

[analog2digital]

I bought a TRV120 Digital 8 camcorder in great condition online a while back, thinking a firewire port would be a godsend for my quest to digitize 8mm tapes. Unfortunately I later discovered that the TRV120 doesn't appear to play most of my older 8mm tapes, mostly it just shows a blue or black screen and occasionally I see a bunch of rolling bars with some hints of images but the images unusable. It plays back video just fine when you record and play it back on the TRV120 so my assumption here is that some camcorders/decks are more picky about video signals. The same tape plays fine using a Samsung SCA30 8mm camcorder but that camcorder doesn't have S-video out. Is there a list of recommended 8mm decks/camcorders? I'm trying to capture tapes from the late 80's and 90's shot on Sony F70 and Samsung SCA30. Does playback in the camcorder that originally recorded the video, yield the best output? Should I try to find a way to get s-video out of the SCA30 for the best quality?

[josem84]

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog2digital

I bought a TRV120 Digital 8 camcorder in great condition online a while back, thinking a firewire port would be a godsend for my quest to digitize 8mm tapes. Unfortunately I later discovered that the TRV120 doesn't appear to play most of my older 8mm tapes, mostly it just shows a blue or black screen and occasionally I see a bunch of rolling bars with some hints of images but the images unusable. It plays back video just fine when you record and play it back on the TRV120 so my assumption here is that some camcorders/decks are more picky about video signals. The same tape plays fine using a Samsung SCA30 8mm camcorder but that camcorder doesn't have S-video out. Is there a list of recommended 8mm decks/camcorders? I'm trying to capture tapes from the late 80's and 90's shot on Sony F70 and Samsung SCA30. Does playback in the camcorder that originally recorded the video, yield the best output? Should I try to find a way to get s-video out of the SCA30 for the best quality?

I'm not familiar with that model… Did you checked the specs of the camera to see if it was backwards compatible with analog 8mm tapes? That was a feature mostly available on the first models during the transition from analog to digital. Not all D8 camcorders are able to playback standard 8mm or Hi8 tapes.

[BW37]

The TRV120 does (or is supposed to) play back analog 8mm tapes. However, there is a caveat on page 26 of the manual which warns:

-Noise may appear when your camcorder plays back tapes recorded in the Hi8/standard 8 system.
-Sound is muted
-The previous recording may appear as a mosaic image when playing back in Digital 8 system.

I don't know how often this happens but it seems that Sony knew it might.
Since tape speed and head rotation speed are different between analog and D8 it's probably not changing those properly for analog playback.

There is a way you can force it into analog play back in mode:

It's the "PB Mode" setting in the VTR settings menu, below the TBC and DNR options. Maybe it's just having trouble recognizing that the tape is analog, not D8 in the "Auto" setting. (page 66 of the manual)

Hopefully that will do it.

If it can't read the 8mm tapes with this setting your best bet would probably be to see if you can find a Hi8 camcorder that has the preferred TBC and s-video output. I doubt any straight-up standard "Video 8" camcorders or decks have the s-video output or the TBC but maybe some of the pros on the site know better and will chime in.

Hope this helps,

BW

[analog2digital]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BW37

The TRV120 does (or is supposed to) play back analog 8mm tapes. However, there is a caveat on page 26 of the manual which warns:

-Noise may appear when your camcorder plays back tapes recorded in the Hi8/standard 8 system.
-Sound is muted
-The previous recording may appear as a mosaic image when playing back in Digital 8 system.

I don't know how often this happens but it seems that Sony knew it might.
Since tape speed and head rotation speed are different between analog and D8 it's probably not changing those properly for analog playback.

There is a way you can force it into analog play back in mode:

It's the "PB Mode" setting in the VTR settings menu, below the TBC and DNR options. Maybe it's just having trouble recognizing that the tape is analog, not D8 in the "Auto" setting. (page 66 of the manual)

Hopefully that will do it.

If it can't read the 8mm tapes with this setting your best bet would probably be to see if you can find a Hi8 camcorder that has the preferred TBC and s-video output. I doubt any straight-up standard "Video 8" camcorders or decks have the s-video output or the TBC but maybe some of the pros on the site know better and will chime in.

Hope this helps,

BW

Thanks, I tried toggling PB Mode as well as: TBC, DNR and AV/DV out. No luck. I see mostly a blue screen, when I fast-forward I can see of these image with a ton of static. In the camcorder it was originally recorded on it plays back perfectly. The problem is that camcorder -- Samsung SCA30 has only composite out, no S-video.

[BW37]

Going back and rereading your original post, I have some questions as to your original plan to digitize your 8mm tapes. I apologize if you already understand the following, but it's unclear from your post since you reference both the desire for an s-video port and the benefits of the firewire port.

It sounds like you originally planned to use the firewire output to input directly to a PC. This would digitize (capture) them, both video and audio, in the TRV-120 in the DV format prior to sending it to the PC via firewire. This is definitely possible and might be adequate for your purposes... and that's your decision, no-one else's . However, because of the methods of compression DV uses, capturing analog as DV is generally not recommended by those looking for the best quality output.

The recommendations made on this forum to use a D8 camcorder to digitize Video8 (std 8mm) and Hi8 do not involve using the firewire port. Rather, the video/audio is output via the s-video and analog audio outputs to some separate analog to digital capture device/system. Compared to a Video8 (or most Hi8 camcorders), the D8 camcorder gives you s-video (vs composite) and also the line TBC and the (maybe useful) DNR function.

Do you already have another capture device that you plan to use with an s-video output of either the TRV-120 or some other player device? Are you using this already to capture the tapes that do play on the TRV-120? This is unclear so far.

I'm going to be crucified for the following, but I'm going to say it anyway. I would certainly try it myself before assuming it wouldn't work well enough for my personal needs.

so here goes...

Assuming you are already using the firewire output of the TRV-120 to transfer any tapes that do play on it to a PC, have been satisfied with the quality of these transfers? If so, have you tried using the "AV/DV out" function of the TRV-120 to "capture" the composite video output of the Samsung and output it as DV to your PC? Basically this uses the TRV-120 as a "capture device" only. It doesn't have to play the tapes at all.

This method would/will be justifiably frowned upon by the pros and advanced hobbyists who inhabit this site, but it is an option you appear to have with the equipment you have. To get better results, you will likely have to acquire more equipment: a player that will play your Samsung tapes and give you an s-video output and hopefully have a line TBC (like the TRV-120 that doesn't work for you), possibly/probably a frame TBC, a good analog to digital capture device/system. But maybe you already have some of them. It's not clear...

BW

Edit: PS: Just a FYI. When you make a new recording on the TRV-120 it records as DV, not as analog. I believe this is true of all D8 camcorders.

PPS: flame away guys!

[analog2digital]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BW37

Going back and rereading your original post, I have some questions as to your original plan to digitize your 8mm tapes. I apologize if you already understand the following, but it's unclear from your post since you reference both the desire for an s-video port and the benefits of the firewire port.

It sounds like you originally planned to use the firewire output to input directly to a PC. This would digitize (capture) them, both video and audio, in the TRV-120 in the DV format prior to sending it to the PC via firewire. This is definitely possible and might be adequate for your purposes... and that's your decision, no-one else's . However, because of the methods of compression DV uses, capturing analog as DV is generally not recommended by those looking for the best quality output.

The recommendations made on this forum to use a D8 camcorder to digitize Video8 (std 8mm) and Hi8 do not involve using the firewire port. Rather, the video/audio is output via the s-video and analog audio outputs to some separate analog to digital capture device/system. Compared to a Video8 (or most Hi8 camcorders), the D8 camcorder gives you s-video (vs composite) and also the line TBC and the (maybe useful) DNR function.

Do you already have another capture device that you plan to use with an s-video output of either the TRV-120 or some other player device? Are you using this already to capture the tapes that do play on the TRV-120? This is unclear so far.

I'm going to be crucified for the following, but I'm going to say it anyway. I would certainly try it myself before assuming it wouldn't work well enough for my personal needs.

so here goes...

Assuming you are already using the firewire output of the TRV-120 to transfer any tapes that do play on it to a PC, have been satisfied with the quality of these transfers? If so, have you tried using the "AV/DV out" function of the TRV-120 to "capture" the composite video output of the Samsung and output it as DV to your PC? Basically this uses the TRV-120 as a "capture device" only. It doesn't have to play the tapes at all.

This method would/will be justifiably frowned upon by the pros and advanced hobbyists who inhabit this site, but it is an option you appear to have with the equipment you have. To get better results, you will likely have to acquire more equipment: a player that will play your Samsung tapes and give you an s-video output and hopefully have a line TBC (like the TRV-120 that doesn't work for you), possibly/probably a frame TBC, a good analog to digital capture device/system. But maybe you already have some of them. It's not clear...

BW

Edit: PS: Just a FYI. When you make a new recording on the TRV-120 it records as DV, not as analog. I believe this is true of all D8 camcorders.

PPS: flame away guys!

Sorry, I left out some details in my original post. I originally purchased the TRV120 thinking capturing using the FireWire port would be sufficient but I soon realized the image quality thanks to the DV codec is terrible.
Current setup:
- TRV120 or SCA30 or some other 8mm camcorder?
- Videonics MX-1 video mixer w/built in TBC — I have yet to see any benefit from this from my minimal testing, not sure if I just don’t have tapes that would benefit from it.
- Osprey 260e capture card
- Modern Windows 10 desktop PC, i7
- Virtualdub 64 + HuffyUV 2.1.1
- Eventually deinterlace with something like Handbrake, color correct, compress to high bitrate H.264, delete HuffyUV.
files.

[BW37]

Hah! Lots of nice toys in the kit to play with.

I guess that takes us back to your original, still unanswered question. Sorry

" Is there a list of recommended 8mm decks/camcorders? "

Yes there is, sort of, but quite a bit less robust than the VHS-VCR's recommendations list:

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...-digital8.html

There's there's a good discussion of options here

The latter starts off on a different (but maybe related) subject but moves to options for Video8 players as the main subject with links to other sites, etc. It's worth a read.

I don't know that anyone can guarantee that another Hi8 or D8 camcorder will play the Samsung tapes better than the D8 you have. Maybe a Hi8 would have a slightly greater chance just because it doesn't have to change modes and speeds like a D8 does. I think it will be trial and error to find one that works if it's out there. Maybe someone else can chime in if they have a recommendations of a particularly friendly player option.

Lastly, have you tried capturing composite from the Samsung direct to the Osprey? It might suffice. Or if the Osprey doesn't like the composite, you could try routing the composite through a good SVHS VCR or maybe a good DVD recorder to have it convert the signal to s-video. Lordsmurf briefly discusses this in the above linked post. I suspect your switcher can convert composite to s-video. I couldn't tell for sure from a brief scan of the manual but that would seem like a necessity for that type of device. Also, try setting up a stationary black "wipe" transition from the bottom of the image that just covers the head switching noise. If its not always on, I think this might force the switcher's frame TBC into play which could stabilize the signal for the Osprey.

Good luck!

BW