Get a better VCR vs. vhs-decode?

[TCMullet]

I was about to start a new thread, asking "Why hasn't anyone at this forum talked about VHS-Decode?? Here's a link." Well, I'm piggybacking now, and here IS the link I found.
https://hackaday.com/2022/12/13/vhs-...hival-efforts/

It seems to me what with the cost of TBCs always going up and never going down, THIS is what we should be evaluating. Lord, as you've seen in my PM to you, I'm seriously thinking of asking you to refurb 1 or more of my decks. (Either my AG-1970 or JVC SR-V101US.) Why not look into this RF decode stuff?????? My Amiga disks via "adfread" are failing sectors left and right, but all my tapes, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generation have been holding up well in climate controlled storage since they were recorded, 1990-1998 roughly, and I could put off remastering for a year or two if necessary. EVERYONE who is in the know about this, PLEASE chime in! I don't want to spend thousands on a TBC and deck refurbs now when maybe a few hundred later without messing with TBCs will be the best solution.

And I DO have some thoughts about tape speed, serious thoughts, but will find some other place to post them. I promise you, it's not cut and dried.

[latreche34]

We have quite few threads here about vhsdecode and at videohelp, Not sure how you came up with that statement.

VHSdecode is not for everyone technically speaking, and it is not a complete product, Even the raw RF capture is not really final, you could have a gain issue and the entire recapture is mandatory, They make it sounds like you can capture raw RF now without problems and decoding later when the project matures, but I'm not too sure about that, So don't throw away tapes just because you have few terabytes of raw RF, you never know when you will find that something went wrong with that RF data.

[TCMullet]

Will read further, thanks. TBC logic needs to be successful enough that the raw RF data can be discarded after videos are mastered from it. Disk is cheap, but not cheap enough to keep X terabytes for Y hours of SD video. (Can anyone fill in X and Y? Maybe this parameter could help monitor the project.) Still wish to hear May 2023 thoughts. But I WILL search here for VHS-Decode. HEY, can my old LD player use this?? But it has a zillion caps.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TCMullet

g "Why hasn't anyone at this forum talked about VHS-Decode??

It doesn't outperform standard methods -and- takes more effort to get those lesser results. Furthermore, the "capture" is pure raw data, not anything visual as most seem to think.

Quote:

here IS the link I found.

Read it again. Pay close attention.

<copy/pasting my comments from elsewhere>

There were great comments on the Hackaady article, about the "new and improved" sample:
- But … isn’t VHS-decode the worst of the four? I don’t understand…
- Feels like what a good S-VHS recorder could do on a new tape back in the day.
- You are still on the same place where you was 5 years ago, quality is same bad quality as before 5 years and you, the group of deep amateurs cant do it better. So 1,2 or 5 years before, the quality and reliability is the same – BAD.
- What you’re “planning” is a very low-res version of what Sony did in the early 80s.

^ The fact that one of the devs thought that I'd left those comments is amusing. Until just now, I'd never ever seen that article. He thinks I'm the only one critical, but as I've stated before, others that truly know video capture aren't impressed whatsoever, especially the high end (archivists, restorationists, etc). That leaves the low end, and they have Easycaps, HDMI adapters, essentially fodder crap. So you're essentially just BS'ing newbies that don't yet know if they want to go for quality, or succumb to the Chinese USB crap. That is literally the only positive comments I ever see on this project. People that don't capture video, and wouldn't know a capture card from a network card.

Quote:

It seems to me what with the cost

People get so blinded by costs, and are so willing to vastly reduce quality. I never understand that.

"Groceries cost too much!"
"Oh wow, dog food sure is cheap! I'll eat that instead!" -- says nobody, ever.

TBCs are simply tools require for quality video transfer. vhs-decode does not remove that need, but instead poorly attempts it in pure x86 software. It will never work. At least not in this decade, too much compute is required. Dedicated hardware is needed. vhs-decode will never succeed until the cheapskate mentality is gone, and appliances/hardware are used for it.

The theory of RF decode is sound, and should surpass existing methods. In theory.
But the follow-through is subpar.

Quote:

EVERYONE who is in the know about this, PLEASE chime in! I don't want to spend thousands on a TBC and deck refurbs now

Therein lies the issue. Those of us "in the know" readily see the limitations and issues. And the current project trajectory is a dead end. The reason? Too damned cheap. This desire to use random VCRs from Goodwill, no TBCs, and non-ideal capture cards, is simply ridiculous.

[TCMullet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

We have quite few threads here about vhsdecode and at videohelp, Not sure how you came up with that statement.

I'll tell you how I did. (How I came up with my statement "Why hasn't anyone at this forum talked about VHS-Decode??") I only found the forum a few days ago looking intensely for TBC info, and had not had a chance to survey the whole forum for other things.

I'm struggling to figure out how to resume using my GVP TBC+ cards (2 of them, but 1 would be adequate) WITHOUT an Amiga computer. If that's a dead end, then it appears a decent TBC will cost me high 3 or even 4 digits, which is WAY outside my low income as a senior in subsidized housing (I'm a bit sad to admit). I've got VCRs that need some refurbishing and have already ordered little things (good audio/video cabling) and medium "box" ($100+) for SD to HDMI conversion and upscaling). I have a local VCR refurb guy, but am just now doubting he'll do everything the great LordSmurf will.

Over in AVISynth (doom9) folks there are TRYING to write software to Time Base Correct captured video, but it's mostly futile. It may have been a re-search of some phrase including "software" in it that led me to the link I gave. So when I found the article I gave above, I'd never even heard of the idea of saving RF data off the rotating video head!

[traal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TCMullet

Disk is cheap, but not cheap enough to keep X terabytes for Y hours of SD video. (Can anyone fill in X and Y?

X = 80 MB @ 40 MHz 16-bit, Y = 1 second. So 80 MB/s or 288 GB/hour, compared with around 25-40 GB/hour for HuffYUV.

288 GB is about $5 worth of hard drive space.

[TCMullet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by traal

X = 80 MB @ 40 MHz 16-bit, Y = 1 second. So 80 MB/s or 288 GB/hour, compared with around 25-40 GB/hour for HuffYUV.

288 GB is about $5 worth of hard drive space.

Traal, THANKS!

I'm not sure if you were justifying it or condemning it. That's okay, I've learned what I need to know. I went back to my last 3TB drive purchase (8/2021). Rough calc shows 288GB costs me $6.14.

While that may be cheap, NO FRICKING WAY I'm going to store 288GB for 1 hour of video! 40GB for Huf is still high and I'd use MagicYUV. Of course, 40GB isn't terrible but the reason is that it's SD. I expect my permanent SD captures to to be less than 40GB if SD.

They HAVE to find or make some way to either cut that 288GB way down OR get the TBC algorithm just as perfect as the hardware TBCs so the RF data (288GB) can be DELETED.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

This desire to use random VCRs from Goodwill, no TBCs, and non-ideal capture cards, is simply ridiculous.

In my opinion, it's not entirely ridiculous. Yes, it's stupid to not have the best deck possible (and have it fully refurbed), so you can do good video without the full RF finished results. But no TBC will be needed once they finish, and no capture card needed as the data was already captured as RF into the temporary RF file.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

People get so blinded by costs, and are so willing to vastly reduce quality. I never understand that.

"Groceries cost too much!"
"Oh wow, dog food sure is cheap! I'll eat that instead!" -- says nobody, ever.

You're wrong about the dog food, VERY wrong. There are many thousands of people, mostly homeless, but not all, who have been so bad off that at times, it might be eat dog food or go hungry. You've likely had a decent income all your adult life. I had a low but acceptable income life as a young programmer who elected to work for a small company with friends rather than a big company with bigger salary. But when my mistakes over a 16 year period left me obsolete as a programmer and no seeming way to get even grunt work to not be homeless, I was TERRIFIED of starving and freezing to death somewhere in the woods, homeless and destitute. I thank God for my doctor who learned of my plight and was able to point me to fabulous mental and the related physical healing. (I've published the story on my website for anyone interested.) But the fears were real. I did not feel that I could survive like many homeless people do. And I started planning my death, when my Doc found out. LordSmurf, I'm not faulting you AT ALL for not understanding the poorer segments of the population. But I merely wanted you to have a partial understanding. I never look at homeless people the same, nor look at suicide reports the same, now that I've been INCHES away from both.

Quote:

TBCs are simply tools require for quality video transfer. vhs-decode does not remove that need, but instead poorly attempts it in pure x86 software. It will never work. At least not in this decade

As a former programmer, I can't agree with that. For over 25 years, I told others that "any process that can be conceived and reduced to explicit steps, can be programmed". So if engineers could hardwire the algorithms into boxes that did TBC, it should be feasible in software. What I don't understand (and there maybe much more I don't understand) is why not one engineer who programmed any hardware TBC doesn't come out and reveal the algorithms. Trade secrets? I dunno. As I promised, I WILL be seeking out all threads here dealing with VHS-Decode, as I have promised.

Quote:

The theory of RF decode is sound, and should surpass existing methods.

BINGO!

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TCMullet

But no TBC will be needed once they finish, and no capture card needed as the data was already captured as RF into the temporary RF file.

That's simply false.

TBC is required for the playback.
The RF method of extraction is just moving raw data from the tape analog storage medium to a digital storage medium. Content playback has not happened yet. vhs-decode doesn't give you usable video until later in the process. And that's where the project is spinning wheels. As mentioned by latreche before, this is why RF re-capture may be required at some later date.

vhs-decode has the same hype around it as AI (or before it metaverse, before it 5G, etc). Just the overhyped tech fad of the moment (within the video capture niche). Reality will eventually set in, wait for it. I've been working with video for more than 30 years now, this sort of stuff comes and goes in waves. So much vaporware, broken promises.

Quote:

There are many thousands of people, mostly homeless, but not all, who have been so bad off that at times,

No. There are places to go, assistance programs, etc. Dog food is not part of that. What you refer to is people who choose to live in such awful conditions. Drink, smoke, drugs, eat crap.

That wasn't what I was referring to anyway.

[TCMullet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

The RF method of extraction is just moving raw data from the tape analog storage medium to a digital storage medium. Content playback has not happened yet. vhs-decode doesn't give you usable video until later in the process. And that's where the project is spinning wheels. As mentioned by latreche before, this is why RF re-capture may be required at some later date.

Are you saying that IF they develop perfect RF extraction AND perfect decode, that the video output will STILL need to be TBC'd??

Quote:

VHS-decode has the same hype around it as AI (or before it metaverse, before it 5G, etc). Just the overhyped tech fad of the moment (within the video capture niche). Reality will eventually set in, wait for it. I've been working with video for more than 30 years now, this sort of stuff comes and goes in waves. So much vaporware, broken promises.

Man oh man, I hate fads anyway. And especially in this instance. What a bummer. I thought tech stuff like this would reflect reality, not a stupid fad. Am disappointed both in this, and in the character of those who would prematurely hype the idea. "Hey, I'm building a rocket to the moon in my backyard!" I'd say, "Shut up, dude. Until you get some serious high orbit test flights, you're all hype." Thanks for waking me up, Lord.

However, what about the laserdisc option? I thought you said somewhere that might be good enough to be viable. I do have several hundred LDs. I didn't think LDs would need TBC or any extraction other than the best possible connection method (Y/C vs composite).

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TCMullet

Are you saying that IF they develop perfect RF extraction AND perfect decode, that the video output will STILL need to be TBC'd??

Yes. Simply moving the data from analog-recorded tape to digital-held data does not address the content. It needs not just TBC, but DOC and others. VHS is chaos. It must be tamed. It's not magically perfect digital signal quality on the tape.

Quote:

Man oh man, I hate fads anyway. And especially in this instance. What a bummer. I thought tech stuff like this would reflect reality, not a stupid fad. Am disappointed both in this, and in the character of those who would prematurely hype the idea. "Hey, I'm building a rocket to the moon in my backyard!" I'd say, "Shut up, dude. Until you get some serious high orbit test flights, you're all hype." Thanks for waking me up, Lord.

That it exactly. It's very theoretical. It has some successes, but more failures. It's very much garage type tech, nothing overly stable, sometimes not even replicable. There are still many challenges, and some aspects that must be overcome will require breaking away from the foolish cheapskate mentality.

It's the video capture version of AI right now. Lots of BS, with some facts underneath it all.

Quote:

However, what about the laserdisc option? I thought you said somewhere that might be good enough to be viable. I do have several hundred LDs. I didn't think LDs would need TBC or any extraction other than the best possible connection method (Y/C vs composite).

The LD method is rock solid mature tech. That was a project that involved the BBC, not some random dudes in the basement on weekends. Using ld-decode for videotapes, for a format not intended (but possible), was where vhs-decode came in.

https://www.domesday86.com/
https://github.com/simoninns/DomesdayDuplicator/wiki

Even if you get into Domesday/ld-decode, what you do for it may not translate well, or at all. Separate hardware from what I've read, not much in common at all.

What I somewhat roll my eyes at is the fact that LD was just released content. Once this has been done for a title, why does it need to be done again? Just share results. It's not like you have family home movies, or even rare broadcasted movies/TV, etc.