Does a JVC-DRM10S really filter VHS noises? Tapes look better than DVDs?

[admin]

continued from email...

Quote:

At http://www.digitalfaq.com/reviews/dvd-recorders.htm you say "The very best DVD recorders ever made had the ability to filter out typical VHS noises, such as chroma noise and grain, as well as encode cleanly and without blocks. These excellent models included the JVC DR-M10S".

Based on this, I got a JVC-DRM10S today and it does NOT filter VHS noises, which is mainly why I got it. It cost me $300 to get a rare factory sealed model from an Amazon seller, and though the picture is admittedly nice, it doesn't do what your review says it does. Please fix this so others don't make a similar mistake.

Sorry, but there's nothing to "fix" here.

The LSI Logic DiMeNsion chipset (DMN-86xx) used by the JVC DR-M10 removes almost all chroma noise from input sources. This is especially true on VHS and S-VHS, as those formats are heavily burdened by chroma noise.

Beyond that, JVC has added what it calls a "super MPEG processor" as well as it's own DNR (digital noise reduction) circuit. The DNR reduces grain in the video, without harming detail or adding temporal artifacts. The MPEG processor suppresses block noise that is easily seen when low-grade consumer sources are digitized to the high-compression MPEG-2 format. Most other DVD recorders have color noise, blocky video, and mushy noise reduction (if any) that smears the video and ghosts it.

What sort of VHS noises were you expecting it to filter?

It will not remove major distortions, geometry timebase errors, or other damage that can sometimes be found on tapes. This isn't the tool to use for making a lousy VHS tape into a decent DVD. It makes a so-so or decent VHS tape into an excellent DVD.

There are other tools you can use, which can correct errors. Those tools will make a terrible VHS tape into a so-so tape, which the JVC can then turn into an excellent DVD.

$300 is still a bargin for this unit -- it has an MSRP of $399, and that's generally what it sold for. These were not sold in general consumer stores like Walmart or Best Buy, buy higher end chains like Crutchfield and J&R. Amazon and B&H also carried them, being online companies that sell high-end and professional video/photo/audio gear.

I'm thinking that you may just misunderstand what this unit is supposed to do.

Also verify that you have a DR-M10S silver unit made in 2004-2005 (maybe 2006), either made in Japan or China. There will be a sticker on the back of it. There are other models, with similar numbers, made in 2007-2009 (DRMV100B, for example). And I've seen some dumb sellers putting the wrong machine up for sale on eBay and Amazon in the past. Not common, but has happened.

Hope that helps.

Feel free to register and reply here, if you need more help. Thanks.

[robjv1]

Yes, I am curious what your specific noise issues are as well. Are you using a good SVHS VCR with the DVD-recorder?

[J. C. Kaelin]

Thank you for your well informed and well substantiated reply. You are correct, I did misunderstand what was to be expected from this unit. I had expected a user-configurable VHS noise reduction feature like the Panasonic DMR-ES20S DVD recorder, which filtered out noise from an incoming video signal when the option was set to do so via the VCR's menu of preferences, often quite nicely, sometimes too aggressively. But as you say, the JVC-DRM10S's noise reduction is in fact a built-in, non-user configurable circuit whose efficiency has become apparent to me over the past 48 hours as I play every troublesome tape I have in my library and this unit alone plays them without jitter, many tapes I have never seen play so well in decades, even tapes I recorded off cable on the old JVC HR-3300 VCR play clearer than when I first played them back after recording. A true wonder unit, and I thank you for your recommendation - it sufficiently pleased me to impel me to upgrade my VCR as well from a Panasonic AG 2580 to a JVC 101US (nearly the same unit only SVHS) based on your site's VCR recommendations .

While I'm delighted with this purchase, I will still need a DVD recorder that is able to perform more aggressive noise reduction like the DMR-ES20S, but one that is of a higher quality, in order to clean up recordings made from poor source media (bad cable broadcasts, low quality VCR to VCR dubs, etc). Is there one you would recommend? Thanks in advance, J. C. Kaelin

[J. C. Kaelin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by robjv1

Yes, I am curious what your specific noise issues are as well. Are you using a good SVHS VCR with the DVD-recorder?

Thanks for the question. In my recent reply post which I made after your reply, I was looking for a user configurable noise reduction feature like the Panasonic DMR-ES20S. It was great for filtering out source media noise like a bad cable broadcast or other noise in the source media, but it was often too agressive, over-reducing on some recordings. I'm looking for a unit like that, but I plan to use it only on bad source media recordings - the JVC recorder I just got is able to record so damn well I can see it will be the one I'll primarily use.

[admin]

Well, there's also some misconceptions here.

The JVC implementation of the LSI chipset is probably the strongest filtering DVD recorder that has been made to date -- and probably will stand to be the strongest one ever, period, given the decline and near-collapse of the DVD recorder market.

However, there are two specific errors it will not fix:

1. Signal errors that results in false anti-copy detection
2. Signal impurities that results in image tearing. More on that at http://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum/show...even-2313.html

Back in 2005-2006, Panasonic introduced the ES10 DVD recorder. While the recording quality was terrible, it had a unique ability to filter out the above two problems.

An unfortunate side effect, however, was that the ES10 over-processed the video with NR engaged, causing temporal blurring and posterizing/banding the video (compressed color palette). Even with the NR turned off, there were still some observable effects.

The ES10, ES15, ES20 and ES25 all shared many of these same characteristics.

While the JVC NR filters were strong and lacked an on/off switch, at least they would help in all cases. The Panasonic NR filters are more damaging than anything else. (Note that the two errors mentioned earlier are not considered "NR".) There's no benefit to posterized video or blurring. While those are technically the side effects of "strong filters," it's due to poor implementation. You've apparently noticed these issues, given your comments.

Panasonic also had chronic IRE issues for many years, and one of their apparent fixes was to cook luma. What you end up with are images that are a bit muddy and dark, as well as somewhat color shifted green or red. This was readily apparent in the ES10, though I don't know how it may be in the ES20.

The common option that's been suggested for 5 years now on this site is to use the Panasonic in pass-through mode. The ES10-ES25 have the often-unique abilities to filter video on input -- meaning you don't have to record with the unit to take advantage of the filtering. Therefore you use the ES20 you have for correcting some (but not all) anti-copy issues, as well as prevent tearing. Then the JVC will further clean the signal when it records. (Note that the JVC, like most devices, does not have pass-through abilities)

The only other series of recorders will well-regarded filters were the Toshiba XS series HDD machines, and a few variations thereof. I don't have the full models list, though I know the KX50 was on there with the XS32 to XS35 models. These filters did not remove chroma noise, and it's generally accepted that the LSI JVC machines were more aggressive and better at fixing tapes. The Toshiba was often used by Laserdisc purists. The Toshiba was most intra-frame and inter-frame filtering (grain reduction). These are even harder to acquire than JVC gear, and often far more costly.

Further use of a TBC and proc amp may help, too.
More on TBCs at http://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum/show...base-2251.html

Glad to hear you're getting good JVC results. That's why it's suggested here!