In need of an external Line Time Base Corrector

[sanlyn]

Recording to the ES15 would work but, of course, bitrate choice is limited, there's no editing, and no hard drive.

@history1, for the audio, many people like a boxy midrange and thumpy bass, and aren't worried about soundstaging. If that's the case, you wouldn't like audio from the better JVC's or the AG-1980.

For future reference, it's better to post samples of unprocessed originals unless someone actually wants to see the results.

[history1]

I am interested in getting a new S-VHS VCR. I am a little concerned, I hope I make the right choice without wasting too much money.

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Flagging and rippling issues are very much resolved on most tapes on an AG1980.

That is one good thing to know, but I read somewhere in this forum that the Panasonic AG-1980 comes with a TBC that corrects multiple lines rather than single lines like the JVCs, but is not superior to it, so JVC may be better in time base correction. Picture quality is a plus, and so is audio. In my second video showing video dubbed with my combo unit have you noticed the audio quality? That's the audio I like. Is the audio quality of the units you recommend like that? Are there any problems while using an external TBC while using either unit? I would like to make a wise decision, I have spent enough already, I am kind of a perfectionist.

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by history1

I read somewhere in this forum that the Panasonic AG-1980 comes with a TBC that corrects multiple lines rather than single lines like the JVCs, but is not superior to it, so JVC may be better in time base correction.

One isn't "better" than the other, they just perform the same task using slightly different methods. You will have crisper detail with the Panasonic and less motion blur on noisy tapes. BTW, the JVC prosumer VCR's are not recommended for slow-speed home recorded tapes. You'll have to go with the AG-1980 for those.

Quote:

Originally Posted by history1

In my second video showing video dubbed with my combo unit have you noticed the audio quality? That's the audio I like. Is the audio quality of the units you recommend like that?

No. High-end players don't sound like your combo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by history1

Are there any problems while using an external TBC while using either unit? I would like to make a wise decision, I have spent enough already, I am kind of a perfectionist.

A line pass-thru unit is an external tbc. If you are using a player with built-on line tbc, you don't need the additional complexity of yet another line tbc. Whether you want to add a full-frame tbc like the AVT-8710 is up to you, but they perform no line-sync correction whatsoever. Some people add frame tbc's all the time. I don't, unless a horribly damaged tape or Macrovision is giving problems.

[msgohan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by premiumcapture

Using an ES-15 or similar DVD recorder will compress the input to MPEG-2 and add its on particulars to the input and output the MPEG-2 stream that would have been recorded anyways. Even capturing to another DVD recorder or to 422 will still end up with handling a 4:2:0 compressed stream that is sampled twice rather than the tape itself.

Not this old myth again!

http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...10#post2317610
http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...13#post2334113

[premiumcapture]

Quote:

Originally Posted by msgohan

Not this old myth again!

http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...10#post2317610
http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...13#post2334113

Its not a myth. If you have one, you can test it as I have done: hook up the VCR directly to the TV, watch a section, then repeat with the ES15.

[history1]

Thank you for all the information sanlyn and premiumcapture. I have an idea of what I want, but either Panasonic and JVC not having the kind of audio quality I want, bummer!, and the combo unit with the audio quality I want, and to add a pass-thru TBC that results in inferior quality transfers, another bummer. Well, i'm going to have to make some kind of decision in the end. I have found that I need my AVT-8710 for most of my transfers, and that actually kind of messes video a little without a line TBC.

Maybe if I post-process S-VHS transfers, I can remove that bass, The audio quality will be just like the combo quality? Could this be true??? Is there something I can do?

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A line pass-thru unit is an external tbc. If you are using a player with built-on line tbc, you don't need the additional complexity of yet another line tbc. Whether you want to add a full-frame tbc like the AVT-8710 is up to you, but they perform no line-sync correction whatsoever. Some people add frame tbc's all the time. I don't, unless a horribly damaged tape or Macrovision is giving problems.

I see, but do your recommended units have problems while connected to an external frame TBC, like the AVT-8710? Actually that's what I meant. I actually already have the AVT-8710.

[lordsmurf]

There's multiple misunderstandings in this thread that need to be addressed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

I've seen comments elsewhere that the 9911 was a kind of last-gasp prosumer effort, nothing like the quality of the 7600 or the 9800 series that I owned and used until they expired.

Correct. The 9900 was the end of the true 9000 series, and the 9911 was more like the later 7000 series. The SR-V10U is essentially the same as a 7600 or 7800, while the 9911 and SR-V101 are basically the same. There are the final S-VHS-only units made by JVC, and there's some lesser qualities to them. Now, do not mistake this to mean they're bad or best avoided. They're just different. You'll find some of the slightly varied mechanics makes them behave different with tapes. For example, the SR-V10 behaves differently than the older 9800, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Having different VCRs react differently is good!

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I have two DVD recorders I've used successfully as pass-thru line tbc's

Wait, wait!

Those are not TBCs!

Do some DVD recorders have partial TBC or frame sync functions? Yes. But they fail to be true line/field/frame TBCs. The primary reason for this is Macrovision detection. The unit is purposely crippled to allow MV. And if you recall, MV is nothing more than an artificial video errors. So legitimate errors can thus pass as well. So quite a few errors pass! Therefore, these are not TBCs. You cannot have a "time baser correct" that refuses to correct errors.

When using DVD recorders for the filter abilites, you need to be very careful. Most DVD recorders augment the signal in some way. Some are purposeful, while others are simply analog artifacts. One of the most common issues with DVD recorder "TBCs" is that it harms IRE. There's other issues -- that's just most common.

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No one asserts that pass-thru units are as powerful as those in good prosumer VCR's.

Tearing is the primary use for the DVD recorders with passthrough -- primarily the Panasonic ES10 series. And possibly the ES15, 20, 25 -- but each unit has it's own laundry list of flaws and caveats.

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So far, both pass-thru units have also undone Macrovision and its effects when used as pass-thru.

This is unusual. And I question if it was 100% removal, with no ill effects to the underlying video. Some of the weaker protection can indeed be removed -- that's why non-TBC "clarifiers" from Sima and others would work about 50% of the time. I'd find tapes to trip those things up in a day. I have a stack of "evil tapes" to specifically piss off gear, and see what happens. As usual, IRE is the usual issue. It's so easy to screw up IRE by jacking with analog signals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by history1

The issues I am talking about concerns this unit being connected to my external TBC. In parts where there is defective video the video fields seperate at times. You can see an example of that in the attached snapshot "JVC & extern TBC error". This unit is kind of sensitive to defective video compared to my combo unit, with the external TBC. I absolutely need my external most of the time, since most of my videos need correcting that it can fix.

This sounds like a defective AVT-8710 TBC (CTB-100).

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I have all noise reduction turned off because it just makes the video too blurry. I like all the detail of the picture, so as a result the video is too sharp.

It really depends on the tape, and how it was recorded. But at the same time, some people confuse noise with "detail" that doesn't actually exist.

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As far as the audio quality it is definitely is not as sharp and crisp as in my combo unit. In the specifications it says Signal-to-noise ratio is 45. That doesn't sound too good, and it's the same in all of JVC's S-VHS units.

VHS SNR is terrible to begin with. But again, the exact audio quality of the JVC depends on the source tape. Some tapes just do not play well.

The biggest issue is you lose TBC features bu dumping an S-VHS VCR -- mostly jitter removal (technical jitter, not layman "jitter") a.k.a. wavy lines issues. External lines TBCs really don't exist, and the TBC-like functions of some DVD recorders on pass-through is as close as you'll get. Very few units have the ability 00 namely the ES10, maybe the ES15, but not the latter ES models. I'm not sure about the Toshiba, but doubt it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by history1

Due to financial restraints

Buy it, use it, resell it.

I really think you'd benefit the most from a Panasonic AG-1980P VCR with a TBC-1000. The ES10 or ES15 may be required, though I doubt it, and it's far from my first choice for workflow hardware (nor second, third, etc).

Quote:

Originally Posted by premiumcapture

If you are set on recording DVDs and getting an ES15 or ES20, you mind as well use the ES15 to record the DVD in the first place (its a DVD recorder).

Yuck. Panasonic video is so grainy, filled with mosquito noise digital artifacts.

It makes the DVD wrose than the tape.

Quote:

Originally Posted by history1

That is one good thing to know, but I read somewhere in this forum that the Panasonic AG-1980 comes with a TBC that corrects multiple lines rather than single lines like the JVCs, but is not superior to it, so JVC may be better in time base correction.

Not better, not worse, just different. The 1980P has what you call a "full-field" TBC -- aka multi-line TBC or "infinite window" TBC. The affects of this is not really visual in nature. It has more to do with how buffering works than anything else.

Explaining TBCs is such a chore sometimes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by msgohan

Not this old myth again!
http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...10#post2317610
http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...13#post2334113

It's not a myth.

However, two things seem to be at play:
1. There are differences across the production run of the units that cause variations in how they work.
2. Some people are simply not very good judges of video quality.

My unit does this, and I've been working with analog video for 20+ years now.

Trust me -- I wish mine did not behave this way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by history1

Thank you for all the information sanlyn and premiumcapture. I have an idea of what I want, but either Panasonic and JVC not having the kind of audio quality I want, bummer!.

Panasonic is known for it's audio quality. So not sure where the "bummer" idea is coming from.

How many tapes do you have to capture, anyway?

I'm actually not feeling well this week, so not online very much. But this thread was driving me nuts!

[sanlyn]

Hmm. This one's driving me a little crazy, too.

Well....perhaps my ES15 is one of the better behaved units. It managed to stop tearing, rippling, wiggling and composite dot crawl, and fixed slightly more of the usual chroma bleed and chroma shift that the AG-1980 addressed just about as well and that my old JVC's hardly touched. The ES20 was visibly less powerfiul and could not repair top-edge tearing nearly as well. My Toshiba's lie somewhere between the two in processing power. I've used several DVD-R's as pass-thru units, and one Denon a/v receiver that has some sort of working tbc on its "To VCR" analog output that seems to be about as middling as the Toshiba units and is OK for most tapes. All of those units seem to ignore Macrovision when used as pass-thru devices, except for the Denon receiver which transmits nasty Macrovision effrects and makes recording impossible. Otherwise, copy-protected tapes look cleaner and more noise-free through all of my other pass-thru units, and I've used all of them for capture. Why they work is a subject for debate, but they seem to work properly where other brands and models do not.

The only "myth" behavior I see about the ES15 is that color looks a bit "processed" but without artifacts, and even those differences are subtle and difficult to see, even by direct comparison with several other captures of the same tape using different gear.

I wouldn't use any of them for recording directly from home-made tapes. Recording from a pristine retail tape with a frame TBC in circuit might suffice for those who don't see too well or don't care. You're right, though, tape recorded directly to DVD loooks like crap. Bad tape recorded directly to DVD looks like really bad crap.

ES15 -vs- AG1980 (my experience). A troublesome tape is more steady via the AG1980, even if you have to look carefully sometimes to see the improvement. Downside: 6 pixels of data is lost underneath the head-switching noise on the AG1980. The only other Panasonic player I ever used that did this were those made after 2000. Time for a realignment from TGrant, I guess. DNR: the AG1980's dnr can be too aggressive at times and results in mild posterization effects if software filters are used later. DNR on my old JVC's could often be worse, though.

9911: the O.P.'s JVC sample shows the same distorted brights that I saw on both of the 9911's I returned to BH Photo. When I returned the second unit I was told by the salesman that they could not give me a direct exchange because they had no more 9911's and would not be carrying the product because of its high return rate. I tended to take the guy's word for it, because I had been doing business with him at that store since 1984. So I took a store credit and later applied it to other purchases (ATI card and an AVT-8710).

Again, thanks for checking up on us.

[lordsmurf]

The tape is really the main culprit for a lot of what we see:
- video too soft, too sharp
- audio too muffled, too loud, too distorted/buzzy
- tearing or not
- wiggly or not (bad timing in need of TBC)
- shadows susceptible to processing artifacts
- IRE fubar

What people often overlook is these issues can happen in the analog domain too. Or the quasi analog-digital, where the signal is analog, but various hardware process it digitally.

I see weird crap all the time. Video is controlled chaos.

I don't trust B&H salesmen anymore -- not since 2005 or so. I'd caught them in other ... lies, for lack of a better word ... in the past. For example, they insisted a Canopus ADVC-100 replaced a TBC. (BS!) JVC probably discontinued the deck, and it's not that B&H quit placing orders. The 9911 had a very short lifespan before they went to SR-V10 (then SR-V101) production only. It's like being dumped after you've already quit calling the person! This is all ~10 years ago at this point, and I don't remember the exact timelines. (I don't use B&H much anymore. Adorama has better return policies, you can buy anything at any time, and prices are usually a $1 or so less. Win-win-win!)

The one caveat for direct DVD recording is that JVC DR-M10/100 series. Between the LSI chips (remove chroma noise) and the JVC DNR, it made really nice DVDs. Even at 50"+, they hold up quite well -- especially if you have a nice HDTV that has noise filters to further clean it.

To some extent, this is the type of stuff I find interesting with video. No tapes (or hardware interaction) is ever the same!

[history1]

Quote:

Panasonic is known for it's audio quality. So not sure where the "bummer" idea is coming from.

I said bummer because sanlyn said the audio quality of high-end players (Like JVC and Panasonic's S-VHS VCRs) don't have audio quality like my combo unit's. I like the clarity of my combo unit's audio, not the low bass of the other units. I'm not a big fan of bass. Bass removes the clarity of audio. I like clear audio. By the way, my combo is also a Panasonic.

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How many tapes do you have to capture, anyway?

About 3-4 dozen.

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I'm actually not feeling well this week, so not online very much. But this thread was driving me nuts!

Yes all this information can drive anybody nuts. Deciding whether a DVD recorder pass-thru is beneficial or not is giving me alot of stress. Too much conflicting information whether it does a good job or not. In the end i've decided to get one. If it does the job with video cleanup, Then i'll keep it. If it doesn't do a good job, then i'll resell it. I'll see how well it compares to a real line TBC. If selling it, i'll see about getting an AG1980, but due to its audio quality comparable to my JVC I may end up using my combo without line time base correction. I'll see what happens.

[premiumcapture]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Yuck. Panasonic video is so grainy, filled with mosquito noise digital artifacts.

It makes the DVD wrose than the tape.

I know, and I wouldn't recommend it as my first option, but if you use the ES15 to another DVD recorder, you are taking that grainy, noisy video and reprocessing it. Recording directly, its certainly the less of two evils.

Quote:

I said bummer because sanlyn said the audio quality of high-end players (Like JVC and Panasonic's S-VHS VCRs) don't have audio quality like my combo unit's. I like the clarity of my combo unit's audio, not the low bass of the other units. I'm not a big fan of bass. Bass removes the clarity of audio. I like clear audio. By the way, my combo is also a Panasonic.

At least on the Panasonic and the upper JVC units, there are sound settings you can play with. VHS does not have 2.1 audio, and anything resembling base is audio that has too much gain. On the Panasonic, you can record as mono, and JVC units have different audio monitors you can play with.

Outside of using a mixer, not all tapes will have the same audio levels either, it depends on how to the VCR is processing it and how it was recorded in the first place.

[history1]

Quote:

At least on the Panasonic and the upper JVC units, there are sound settings you can play with.

What sound settings are there to adjust? On the 9911U all I can find are HI-FI, HI-FI L, HI-FI R, Norm, and Mix in the Audio Monitor settings, and they don't do a thing.

...and sanlyn, For regular video wiggles would you recommend a Toshiba or the ES15?

[msgohan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by premiumcapture

Its not a myth. If you have one, you can test it as I have done: hook up the VCR directly to the TV, watch a section, then repeat with the ES15.

I have two as well as a DMR-ES25. Do a real test whose results can be shared, like I posted on VideoHelp. Run pure noise into the DVD recorder and capture the output. Any degradation due to compression will be immediately evident.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

It's not a myth.

However, two things seem to be at play:
1. There are differences across the production run of the units that cause variations in how they work.
2. Some people are simply not very good judges of video quality.

My unit does this, and I've been working with analog video for 20+ years now.

This is the first time I've seen you claim that your DMR-ES10 outputs from its MPEG-2 encoder over analog; previously you've noted a degradation due to noise reduction and/or posterization. Video samples and screenshots have been posted by those whose ES15 and ES25 units output normal video. A picture's worth a thousand arguments.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

This is the first time I've seen you claim that your DMR-ES10 outputs from its MPEG-2 encoder over analog;

Uh .... what?

Quote:

previously you've noted a degradation due to noise reduction and/or posterization

Yes -- the ES10 has posterization issues, regardless of the NR settings. That's what I'm speaking of now, too. With NR on, it's just worse is all. But it's always present to a degree. Sometimes it's almost transparent, sometimes it horrible. It really depends on the tape. The shadows are the worst.

Were we talking about something else, and I just didn't notice?

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by history1

What sound settings are there to adjust? On the 9911U all I can find are HI-FI, HI-FI L, HI-FI R, Norm, and Mix in the Audio Monitor settings, and they don't do a thing.

Use Norm, which outputs audio with no modification. If you hear no difference between them, you need bette speakers. You should be using headphones anyway. Try the Grado SR60 or SR80, both designed for low-output devices like graphics cards and portable disc players. Nobody makes good cheap PC speakers. Logitech and Bose are the bottom of the barrel, but there are even worse out there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by history1

For regular video wiggles would you recommend a Toshiba or the ES15?

If you are limited to a single choice, use the ES15 for those worst-case tapes. Turn off the ES15's noise reduction. The default settings for black levels are usually correct for North American sources.

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I see weird crap all the time. Video is controlled chaos.

Amen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I don't trust B&H salesmen anymore -- not since 2005 or so. I'd caught them in other ... lies, for lack of a better word ... in the past. For example, they insisted a Canopus ADVC-100 replaced a TBC. (BS!) JVC probably discontinued the deck, and it's not that B&H quit placing orders. The 9911 had a very short lifespan before they went to SR-V10 (then SR-V101) production only. It's like being dumped after you've already quit calling the person! This is all ~10 years ago at this point, and I don't remember the exact timelines. (I don't use B&H much anymore. Adorama has better return policies, you can buy anything at any time, and prices are usually a $1 or so less. Win-win-win!)

Sorry to hear that things have apparently changed. I believe 2004 was the last time I was in there. And I would guess that "Moishe" (the very very hasidic guy I mentioned) probably retired soon after. He was already in his late 60's.

[history1]

Quote:

If you are limited to a single choice, use the ES15 for those worst-case tapes. Turn off the ES15's noise reduction. The default settings for black levels are usually correct for North American sources.

Thanks. I am a little worried about noise though, lordsmurf said that Panasonics are so grainy. Could a toshiba or something else also work well?

[sanlyn]

Grainy refers to recording analog tape to a DVD recorder, not using it as pass-thru. Pass-thru means just what it says -- you don't record, you just "play the tape through" the recorder, from tape player to DVD input to DVD output to capture device.

[msgohan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Uh .... what?

Were we talking about something else, and I just didn't notice?

This is what I called a myth:

Quote:

Originally Posted by premiumcapture

Using an ES-15 or similar DVD recorder will compress the input to MPEG-2 and add its on particulars to the input and output the MPEG-2 stream that would have been recorded anyways. Even capturing to another DVD recorder or to 422 will still end up with handling a 4:2:0 compressed stream that is sampled twice rather than the tape itself.

You responded to my post and said "it's not a myth." I don't think you're saying the same thing as premiumcapture is, but your response indicated agreement with him.

Quote:

Yes -- the ES10 has posterization issues, regardless of the NR settings.

As with the other times this has come up, I'm requesting a sample showing this. Sometimes it's difficult to even tell if people mean the same thing when we speak of posterization.

[premiumcapture]

Most, if not all DVD recorders, behave the way I described. It will not add one filter to a raw source and leave it unencoded and otherwise untouched. If you choose to use the device, you just need to be aware of the negatives that come with it, which is why a proper VCR is stressed so much.

I no longer have my ES20 because I received a new VCR that fixed the issues I was experiencing, but I purchased it and dropped the ES20 because of the issue. To be honest, I never knew there was any debate/doubt and had never seen any thread like the ones you posted from videohelp.com, it was just very clear to me from the picture quality what was happening.