#221  
01-26-2017, 12:11 PM
koberulz koberulz is offline
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The 212x barely fits in my case, the Noctuas are massive.

I've done motion menus for DVDs, I used After Effects though. Used Encore to author, never really had a problem. Had to export the layer break stuff to PGCEdit though. Not using it for Blus, though, it's rubbish for those.

I've got an X-Rite1 iDisplay Pro on the way; is it worth looking at something like CalMAN or will it be bundled with adequate software?
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  #222  
01-26-2017, 12:34 PM
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I've always used bundled software for monitor calibrations.

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  #223  
01-26-2017, 12:50 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
I've got an X-Rite1 iDisplay Pro on the way; is it worth looking at something like Calman or will it be bundled with adequate software?
You can't use Calman software to calibrate a PC monitor and create a custom display profile for your setup with the I1 Pro coloriimeter. Use the X-rite software that comes with the package. Use something like HCFR and the colorimeter to calibrate something like a TV display, which is an entirely manual process. Calman is used with a colorimeter for ISF TV profiling, has an entirely different and klutzy interface, and is difficult to master. HCFR and/or ArgyllCMS software are used for monitor/TV calibration is you want to get very very very involved with it on a purely manual basis. Consult threads in the AVS Forum if you want to spend a few weeks at it.
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  #224  
01-26-2017, 01:15 PM
koberulz koberulz is offline
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You can't use Calman software to calibrate a PC monitor and create a custom display profile for your setup with the I1 Pro coloriimeter.
The CalMAN website claims it supports computer monitors and the X-Rite i1. And the Spears & Munsil disc, which I have.

I just Googled HCFR....I assume it's software that works with the i1? The website is written in fairly poor English.
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  #225  
01-26-2017, 02:53 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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The HCFR interface is in English. The web has several tutorials on how to use HCFR/i1 Pro to calibrate a TV. The AVS website has plenty of articles about it, and about Calman. If you want to spend your money on the X-rite package and on Calman as well, you can do so. It takes a few days of research and study figuring out how to use the Calman method. The Calman website has lots of articles and so does the ArgyllCMS community. After learning the methods it takes a few hours to to do it that way, assuming your PC monitor has controls that allow full adjustment. The X-rite package can do it in about 15 minutes from the first user panel. Your choice.
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  #226  
01-26-2017, 07:53 PM
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Calibration is important, but I'm also not one to go overboard.

Everything I do could be nitpicked to death, but "better" often comes at a high cost and excess time -- and it may not even be that much better, or better at all. Some things are worth it (example: expensive VCRs), some are not (overly anal calibration). Some would say "well, that's not the best monitor to calibrate anyway, and you need to buy this one for a gazillion dollars (but it'll be obsolete in 3 months)". It's never-ending.

I've always stressed (1) important aspects, (2) aspects where you have choice, or preference comes into play, and (3) stuff that need be avoided. Calibration needs to be done, it's really not optional if you want high-end quality. But the method of calibration is preference. Whether expensive/time-consuming methods yields quality that makes the time/funds effort worthwhile is arguable.

This same issue/argument exist in photography.

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  #227  
01-26-2017, 09:37 PM
koberulz koberulz is offline
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Well I'll be needing to calibrate my TV as well. I've run through a by-eye calibration using the Spears & Munsil disc, but if I've got an X-Rite it makes sense to use it.

The one thing that immediately stands out is I'm not seeing much agreement about contrast settings. Depending on the guide they seem to be anywhere from '235 is white' to '255 is white' to 'find somewhere in between'.
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  #228  
01-27-2017, 02:48 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
Well I'll be needing to calibrate my TV as well. I've run through a by-eye calibration using the Spears & Munsil disc, but if I've got an X-Rite it makes sense to use it.
I don't know what you mean by "an X-Rite". X-Rite is a brand name and product vendor. If you refer to the colorimeter, X-Rite isn't a colorimeter. The colorimeter is the i1.

You can't use the X-Rite software to calibrate a TV. For a TV you need the i1 colorimeter, plus either the Calman or HCFR software, and a computer. I believe Argyll also now offers TV calibration methods. You also need to know how to access the advanced CMS (Color Management System) controls in your TV set. The advanced CMS group consists of more than just Contrast, Brightness, and Hue, but has additional controls for Red, Green, and Blue gain, plus bias controls for each color, and possibly primary+secondary d-level (saturation) color purity controls. Samsung TV used to have that complete setup (maybe not all of it today, now that they've cut quality and outsource everything), and LG still has its ISF setup menus. SONY has at least the RGB gain and bias adjustments + gamma and backlight. I think Panasonic makes users access the service menu, while many of Panny's TV's have no advanced CMS at all. Every brand differs.

Instructions for using software and hardware to calibrate a TV come with a calibration disc, or with the Calman software, and a lot of tips and tricks from permanent threads in the AVS Forum calibration section, and specialty websites like the original GrayScale Calibration For Dummies (for HCFR, which is very popular) or the newer ChromaPure Calibration for Dummies for the overpriced ChromaPure or Calman software. These methods and test patterns deal with IRE values and percentages/ranges. The best articles and threads I've seen on TV calibration are in the display calibration section of AVS forum: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/. But be careful -- once you get hooked on that site you can spend months going through it. There are tons of specific guides and discussions and lots of free stuff, such as test discs and test pattern downloads.

Last edited by sanlyn; 01-27-2017 at 03:33 AM.
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  #229  
01-27-2017, 05:14 AM
koberulz koberulz is offline
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Yeah, I pulled that forum up after you mentioned it earlier. I saw the Greyscale for Dummies thread you linked to, but didn't actually read through it because it linked to an updated one, so I just clicked through and read that. I'll check out the HCFR one now.

The one thing I did notice is that with my monitor as it is now, with that greyscale graphic at the bottom of the screen the left two boxes are barely distinguishable, and with it at the top of the screen the left three are completely indistinguishable.

I've located the CMS settings, and found the 2-point and 20-point IRE white balance options on my TV (LG 55OLEDC6T). Haven't found anything thus far that explains the 20-point setting, though, only 2- and 10-point. The 20-point has a couple of extra settings the others don't (Target and Adjusting Luminance).

Also it turns out I don't have a Spears & Munsil disc. I have an empty Spears & Munsil box, and the worst feeling I left the disc in the faulty Blu-Ray player I mailed back to the other side of the country last week...

And the Color Correction Handbook, purchased a week ago, still hasn't shipped.

Will the i1 work with a curved TV? All these guides are saying to set it flat against the screen.

Fiddling around, it appears my monitor doesn't have a brightness control...
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  #230  
01-28-2017, 01:00 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
Will the i1 work with a curved TV? All these guides are saying to set it flat against the screen.
A curved screen? You're either kidding or you have a pretty ancient set. But, then, all CRT';s ha=d at least a very slight curve to the front surface, but I haven't seen a curved screen CRT since about 1985.

If the i1 won't stay steady, use a strip of masking tape down each side of the i1 barrel. Remove any possible tape residue (likely there won't be any) with water or, if it's really sticky, slightly dampen a tissue or soft cloth with soapy water. Apply water to the cloth, not to the panel. Do not use any solvent, and DO NOT use glass cleaner.

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Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
Fiddling around, it appears my monitor doesn't have a brightness control...
It probably does. It's more likely that you didn't note its user guide before discarding the disc that came with it. Probably you can find a user menu guide on the monitor maker's support site.
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  #231  
01-28-2017, 11:33 AM
koberulz koberulz is offline
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A curved screen? You're either kidding or you have a pretty ancient set.
Concave, not convex (think Cinerama). It's the big new TV technology, apparently. I tried to get a flat one but it was about $2000 extra, and the curve isn't really all that noticeable at my viewing distance anyway.

EDIT: http://www.lg.com/au/tvs/lg-OLED55C6T

Quote:
It probably does. It's more likely that you didn't note its user guide before discarding the disc that came with it. Probably you can find a user menu guide on the monitor maker's support site.
There's a control labeled 'brightness', but it appears to just be backlight. Blows out whites if it's high enough, doesn't affect blacks. As does contrast.
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  #232  
01-28-2017, 12:02 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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You can use tape to hold the i! steady.

The backlight/LED sidelight are what an LCD brightness control woks with. The X-Rite software has an onscreen meter that measures brightness and contrast separately as you adjust them.
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  #233  
01-28-2017, 12:49 PM
koberulz koberulz is offline
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Is it just a matter of it being steady? Guides seem to indicate ambient light sneaking in as a potential issue.

Looking at this and this, the brightness control does not change which bars flash. At all. It's literally just backlight.

Contrast is capable of shifting the lowest flashing bar from between 18 and 19 on the brightness video, and the highest from 234 to nothing whatsoever on contrast.

So the absolute best range I can get on any settings is 17-235.
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  #234  
01-28-2017, 12:58 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Sorry, I thought you were using X-Rite. What I see on UTube is another program, including flashing in both videos -- unless YouTube's processing has something to do with that, I don't know. If you're not using X-rite I don't know what to tell you except that X-Rite is a lot more precise than what you're showing us. Beats me why you don't go ahead and use it.

Placing small strips of tape around the barrel of the i1 on a curved screen will shut out enough sidelight. Or temporarily drape a black cloth (not a colored cloth) over the reading area and flip it up when you need to (that's the way I did it on my big plasma, which sits next to a bright window). Calibration shouldn't be done in brightly lighted areas anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
The one thing I did notice is that with my monitor as it is now, with that greyscale graphic at the bottom of the screen the left two boxes are barely distinguishable, and with it at the top of the screen the left three are completely indistinguishable.
I don't know which two bars you're talking about. You have to be more specific. The X-Rite software doesn't make you try to eyeball a setting. Eyeballing is very inaccurate.

Last edited by sanlyn; 01-28-2017 at 01:09 PM.
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  #235  
01-28-2017, 06:49 PM
koberulz koberulz is offline
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The i1 is expected to be delivered on Friday.

Quote:
Calibration shouldn't be done in brightly lighted areas anyway.
Should there not be adjustments for room lighting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
I don't know which two bars you're talking about. You have to be more specific. The X-Rite software doesn't make you try to eyeball a setting. Eyeballing is very inaccurate.


I can see a difference between each of the three left had squares when it's at the bottom of my screen, but they all become completely identical when it's at the top. So presumably viewing angle is relevant?
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  #236  
01-28-2017, 09:09 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
Should there not be adjustments for room lighting?
The question to ask is: adjust lighting for which room? Pro calibration occurs in a dark or extremely dim, light-controlled room or enclosed panel. I just close the blinds, turn off the lamps, and throw a small black cloth over the i1 when necessary. If you want X-Rite to take an ambient light test beforehand, go ahead. The dialog windows will tell you when to run the test.

If you're using an old-fashioned TFT LCD panel, the horizontal and vertical viewing angle effects are exaggerated. An IPS panel would have wider and more even response across a greater range, with more accurate color response than a TFT.

Attached is a 640x360 22-step grayscale with the 22-step pattern repeated in both directions, created as an uncompressed bitmap .bmp. The panel was created for sRGB standard display using my old 2010 version of the Calman RGB Pattern Generator software for use with HCFR. On the three IPS monitors I've owned and used since first calibrating with X-Rite, I can see every distinct section of the graphic at every location on the screen.

There is a test pattern page at the lagom website that demonstrates angle-of-view response with varying types of panels. My IPS panels show me an even and undisturbed image when I sit centered in front of the monitor. http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/viewing_angle.php


Attached Files
File Type: zip ramp22_640x360.zip (12.7 KB, 3 downloads)
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  #237  
01-29-2017, 08:07 AM
koberulz koberulz is offline
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Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
The question to ask is: adjust lighting for which room?
The room the screen is in?

Quote:
Pro calibration occurs in a dark or extremely dim, light-controlled room or enclosed panel.
But nobody watches TV that way, and ambient light will affect things, yes?

Quote:
Attached is a 640x360 22-step grayscale with the 22-step pattern repeated in both directions, created as an uncompressed bitmap .bmp. The panel was created for sRGB standard display using my old 2010 version of the Calman RGB Pattern Generator software for use with HCFR. On the three IPS monitors I've owned and used since first calibrating with X-Rite, I can see every distinct section of the graphic at every location on the screen.
0, 12, and 24 are exactly the same towards the top of my screen.

Quote:
There is a test pattern page at the lagom website that demonstrates angle-of-view response with varying types of panels. My IPS panels show me an even and undisturbed image when I sit centered in front of the monitor. http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/viewing_angle.php
The top four lines are greenish, line five is about right, everything else is red.

*sigh*

Monitor recommendations, then?
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  #238  
01-30-2017, 04:41 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Pro calibration occurs in a dark or extremely dim, light-controlled room or enclosed panel.
But nobody watches TV that way, and ambient light will affect things, yes?
Yes, lots of people do watch watch TV that way, and they watch in somewhat similar but less brightly lighted environments in movie theaters as well. The more typical viewer watches TV under stadium lighting conditions, an environment that produces a high-glare, high-interference experience of perceived low contrast and saturation. To compensate, viewers usually have TV settings in one of the factory supplied templates, collectively known as "volcano modes". That their TVs or viewing conditions are whacky should not be your problem -- you can't possibly calibrate for everyone else's viewing conditions or TV settings. Calibration is performed to established standards, the same well-defined and long-tested standards used by pros who create videos, movies, and TV broadcasts. If the typical viewer wants those results to look like bad amateur crap in their living rooms, theirs are infinitely varying sets of conditions that you couldn't possibly accommodate. But there are many people on the planet with decent and even very sharp viewing sensitivity who know bad work when they see it and almost always avoid it.

Monitor calibration and graphics work by eyesight in bright light produces the same low-contrast perceptions. When confronted with an overly bright monitor or bright viewing conditions, human eyes close down and make the viewing image look washed out. In a totally dark room, the eyeballs open wide and an overly bright/contrasty monitor then shuts the iris and ironically creates the same perceptions. Dim working lights are designed for graphics as a compromise between extremes. They allow you to see more clearly and to spot problems that other viewing conditions obscure, and they let you get closer to working toward defined standards. Your results will look correct in a decent viewing environment, which is far more common than you think, and will look predictably awful in many different ways under many other godawful viewing setups. If you adhere to established standards you can credit yourself with thanks from people with two good eyes and decent equipment -- at the same time you can let the more typical viewer enjoy visual garbage to their heart's content, with no misgivings on your end.

Obviously there are practical limits to the working environments we can arrange. Here are some considerations:
http://photo.net/beginner-photograph...s-forum/00ZpsB
http://creativepro.com/the-darkroom-makes-a-comeback/#
http://www.photovideoedu.com/Learn/A...vironment.aspx

Quote:
Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
*sigh*

Monitor recommendations, then?
Before you rush out, wait and try X-Rite's calibration. It will bring several improvements. Most people nowadays calibrate for a gamma of 2.0, which is a compromise between too-dark 2.2 and too-bright 1.8 and is a closer luma curve match between PC and TV. Preferred brightness level is 120 cdm, as opposed to the 250 or 300 or 400 that most monitors are set up out of the box, for showroom use, and is the same brightness level recommended for LCD and plasma TVs. If you use X-Rite's advanced mode you'll spend a few minutes matching their readout meters for brightness, contrast, Red-Green-Blue. Then let X-Rite go to its auto mode for the next 5 or 10 minutes. You can pick the LUT palette size from small numbers of test samples to medium or large numbers. I usually pick medium.

I guess by now you've heard of IPS-type LCD/LED panels. They have wider viewing angles and more accurate color perception. If you want to look later for improvements, try Viewsonic, LG, HP, or ASUS. They make good IPS panels in mainstream price brackets without totally going into overkill for a multi-featured Dell (of which there are many complaints about unreadable fonts and varying build quality) or other more upscale brands, and without taking risks on mystery-origin brands like Dynex, AOC, or Acer. Most popular brands have panels made by LG to each brand's custom specs. One brand to avoid would be Samsung and their QC problems. A response time of 5ms or lower is recommended for video. As for contrast ratios, don't believe one word of the fictional hype you see on the box.
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  #239  
01-30-2017, 10:01 AM
koberulz koberulz is offline
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If the typical viewer wants those results to look like bad amateur crap in their living rooms, theirs are infinitely varying sets of conditions that you couldn't possibly accommodate. But there are many people on the planet with decent and even very sharp viewing sensitivity who know bad work when they see it and almost always avoid it.
See, I get this argument for movies, even if it's not really all that feasible for everyone. But there can't be very many people who watch sports, or even just regular TV shows, in the dark all the time.

In my case, my TV is in a giant room open to the entire house, with one wall consisting almost entirely of glass. Turning the sun off is probably the easiest way of light-controlling it.

Quote:
Well, the light in here is binary, so dimming is a no-go. I have, however, ended up with a giant bookshelf in front of the only window, so that's a win.

Quote:
Before you rush out...One brand to avoid would be Samsung
Well this just keeps getting better and better. I have a Samsung at the moment.

Quote:
Preferred brightness level is 120 cdm, as opposed to the 250 or 300 or 400 that most monitors are set up out of the box
I've had mine at 0 for years. Not sure what that is in cd/mē, but it's obviously well below default. Actually upped it to 24 while fiddling around the other day.

Are you sure PC monitors with backlight and brightness separate don't exist? It seems reasonably common in TVs, and I'm getting zero black-level movement no matter what I do.

Quote:
I guess by now you've heard of IPS-type LCD/LED panels.
Only what you've said in this thread.

Quote:
try Viewsonic, LG, HP, or ASUS
Anything more specific? Even just looking at ViewSonic in the 23.6-25" range I've come up with 7 different displays at all sorts of price tags. What is response time?

https://www.ple.com.au/Products/6251...PS-LED-Monitor
https://www.ple.com.au/Products/6257...PS-LED-Monitor

What does the extra $210 actually get me?
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  #240  
01-30-2017, 11:23 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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No, people don't normally watch TV in complete darkness. I never said they did.

The response time for any monitor is in its spec section.

Once you get your i1 colorimeter and the software for using it, many issues will be more clear.

What extra $120? Read the specs and feature list. For a couple of factors, IPS costs more than plain TFT, more HDMI inputs cost more, a more stable and more adjustable monitor stand costs more, HDMI with HDCP compliance costs more, a bigger screen costs more, faster response time costs more, and so forth. Some monitors come with tinny built-in speakers, which is a waste of money IMO.

Viewsonic is a trusted quality brand.

If you want to know what to look for in a monitor, try some real reviews instead of the usual user garbage. http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews.htm. Many articles on that website as well as reviews.
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