Panasonic DMR-ES15 needed for VHS/Video8 conversion?

[woko2]

Long time lurker (well really just this past month lol), but I've been slowly acquiring gear to digitize some old family videos/tapes which include VHS, VHS-C, Video8 and regular DVD's.

Not the best gear I know, but trying to stay within a budget but still get some okay results, so I currently have:

• JVC SVHS VCR with line TBC (V101US)
• TRD-DRV330 Sony Camcorder
• ATI TV Wonder 600 HD USB2.0 (Just bought one today that is brand new/sealed in box! The seller has another sealed one if anyone is interested, I paid $85)

Looking to buy:

• Dell Latitude 6430 Windows 7 laptop
• POSSIBLY Panasonic DMR-ES10/ES15 if it will help in my situation? This is really the basis of my entire post, to see if I would benefit from one or not.
• No Frame TBC, sorry, out of budget =/ (I know I'm about to get roasted by LordSmurf )

So I've been reading through this forum and other sites and I'm still a bit confused about the ES15. LordSmurf says a frame TBC is not optional, but that you can somewhat get around it the ES15 which will be better than nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Great question, and easy answer.

Line TBC cleans the image,
Frame TBC cleans the signal.
You need both TBCs.

Without frame TBC, the signal is erratic, so dropped frames and audio sync issues are likely.

Now then.... stacking TBCs question...

As a primary example, The ES10/15 DVD recorder (not a TBC!) contains a strong+crippled line TBC, with non-TBC frame sync, and it has many quality-reducing issues. Those are ideally used only when the net effect of its strong TBC + harmed quality = net better video.

The ES10/15 strong line can be excellent, the rest of the unit processing is pretty craptastic/bad(ish).

When you put a ES10/15 behind a regular VHS VCR, you get some corrections, but then you also get all the "muck" of the low-end VCRs, combined with the DVD recorder. It's better than nothing, but don't fool yourself into thinking it's "best", and "good enough" is an excuse to accept lesser quality.

When you put ES10/15 behind S-VHS VCR, you get the benefits of the S-VHS, but the downsides of the DVD recorder. When the VCR TBC is on, the DVD recorder line TBC literally does nothing. It's inert, it cannot make any corrections to the already-correct signal. In fact, it often makes quality worse, as it attempts to "correct" an already-corrected signal. The non-TBC frame sync doesn't do much, maybe baking in the "Z axis" data to a force clock (non corrective).

So the only way to make an ES10/15 work behind a S-VHS VCR is to disable the VCR TBC, or just use a non-TBC S-VHS VCR. Not that you should.

Even with the non-TBC frame sync, the output from ES10/15 can still be mistimed temporally, and you'll get dropped frames. So you want to chase it with an actual frame TBC, even if it's just a weaker TBC(ish) like a modded DVK, or the "also has" frame TBC devices (but noting all of those have side effects as well, especially non-DVK units). When you put regular VCR, ES10/15 strong+crippled line DVD recorder, non-TBC "also has" weak frame TBC device, into a single workflow, you're basically covering your video under a layer of garbage. Granted, it's better garbage than "nothing at all" (ie, cheap VCR into pathetic Chinese USB capture card or HDMI converter junk), but it's still added garbage/artifacts/etc.

So does that make sense?

VCR > some form of TBC > capture card is the most basic formula for video. But it shouldn't just be any random VCR, TBC, capture card. When you use a specific formula of JVC/Panasonic S-VHS VCR with line TBC > DataVideo/Cypress type frame TBC > ATI/Pinnacle type capture card, then you're operating a level to get clean quality video. Errors removed, nothing really added.

So I'm not entirely sure if I have the S-VCR Line TBC enabled, will the ES15's Line TBC not do anything, but the "non-tbc frame sync" still do something? It also sounds like if you have a S-VCR with line TBC, then you don't really need to use the ES15 in conjunction as it doesn't add much benefit. BUT at the same time, LordSmurf says you need both TBC's, that the frame one is not optional.

So if I'm not going to be getting a Frame TBC for now, should I even worry about buying an ES15 if I'll just be using the S-VCR's TBC?

[Aya_Rei]

I think in this context the ES15 would only be a benefit for specific tapes that have problems that the internal TBC does not fix ie flagging or jitter. A Panasonic 1980 is also another option but seeing how a refurbished one is $1200 from Aramkolt. It is also probably out of your budget.

I'd say a 1980 is another option because from the one I have, I can safely play tapes in it that otherwise would have terrible jittering and other distortions that'd require me to use an ES15 when played in a JVC unit. Not sure if the 1980 is safe from flagging specifically.

Seems like in this scenario it's use what you have and hope you get lucky, hm.

[woko2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

I think in this context the ES15 would only be a benefit for specific tapes that have problems that the internal TBC does not fix ie flagging or jitter. A Panasonic 1980 is also another option but seeing how a refurbished one is $1200 from Aramkolt. It is also probably out of your budget.

I'd say a 1980 is another option because from the one I have, I can safely play tapes in it that otherwise would have terrible jittering and other distortions that'd require me to use an ES15 when played in a JVC unit. Not sure if the 1980 is safe from flagging specifically.

Seems like in this scenario it's use what you have and hope you get lucky, hm.

When you use the ES15 with a JVC unit, do you keep the TBC on both units enabled? Or turn off the one on the JVC? Or just try alternating on and off to see which workflow looks best? And yeah I found the JVC unit I have now by pure luck, it was in pristine condition taken care of by one owner and sold it for only $100, so I figured that was going to be my best chance at getting a S-VCR with line TBC. Everything else I've just been patiently waiting to find in good condition/price.

So if I don't need the ES15 her in my specific case (because it might not add much benefit), then all I need now is to find a good dell latitude 6430 with windows 7. I plan to change the hdd to an SSD and take out the optical drive and put in another SSD there to capture into since I've read its best practice not to use the SSD the system is running off of. Are people still having trouble with Windows 7 64bit for running Virtual Dub with the ATI 600 USB? Should I try to get the 32bit version or should I be okay just using the Vista 64bit drivers as suggested?

[Aya_Rei]

Not sure about drivers, been using Windows XP on a Dell Latitude e6430 myself with no audio sync nor dropped/inserted frame problems

If I use the ES15, I turn off the JVC's internal TBC. As only one should be active at a given time, they basically cancel each other out. If you use an ES15, it's also best practice to route the audio through it as otherwise it adds an audio delay if you only have the video routed to it and the audio routed straight from the playback device to your capture card.

Honestly $100 for a JVC seems like a steal to me, if problems start to show up then maybe you could contact Aramkolt? I know he lists the SR-VS10U as a model he can do refurb work for, but I'm not sure if he's able to do the V101US.

[lordsmurf]

Welcome.

Quote:

(I know I'm about to get roasted by LordSmurf )

Why would you think that? I'm not an ogre. --- Bigmouth was the ogre, I'm a Smurf!
But seriously, I help others, I don't scold them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by woko2

Long time lurker (well really just this past month lol), but I've been slowly acquiring gear to digitize some old family videos/tapes which include VHS, VHS-C, Video8 and regular DVD's.
Not the best gear I know, but trying to stay within a budget but still get some okay results, so I currently have:

• JVC SVHS VCR with line TBC (V101US)
• TRD-DRV330 Sony Camcorder
• ATI TV Wonder 600 HD USB2.0 (Just bought one today that is brand new/sealed in box! The seller has another sealed one if anyone is interested, I paid $85)

- V101 can be excellent. (By chance, did you buy that $200 unit from eBay? It gives me concerns.)
- Camcorder can be fine, if has line TBC.
- ATI 600 USB excellent..

So ... not the best, you say? I disagree. Very good stuff! (Potentially.)

Quote:

Looking to buy:

• Dell Latitude 6430 Windows 7 laptop
• POSSIBLY Panasonic DMR-ES10/ES15 if it will help in my situation? This is really the basis of my entire post, to see if I would benefit from one or not.
• No Frame TBC, sorry, out of budget =/

So I've been reading through this forum and other sites and I'm still a bit confused about the ES15. LordSmurf says a frame TBC is not optional, but that you can somewhat get around it the ES15 which will be better than nothing.

This gets complicated.

- JVC line TBC better.
- Panasonic stronger, but worse.
- When two line TBCs in workflow, first in workflow "wins" (VCR).
- Or disable JVC, rely on Panasonic.
- Panasonic DVD recorders are not transparent, and reduce quality some, in multiple ways.
- You must have some sort of frame sync, ideally with frame (sync) TBC. But ES10/15 is non-TBC frame sync. It's not highly resilient, it still fails, unlike actual frame TBC. But if budget matters more than quality, this is the method. That leaves the decision on which line TBC to use.

Quote:

So I'm not entirely sure if I have the S-VCR Line TBC enabled, will the ES15's Line TBC not do anything, but the "non-tbc frame sync" still do something?

Yes.

Quote:

It also sounds like if you have a S-VCR with line TBC, then you don't really need to use the ES15 in conjunction as it doesn't add much benefit. BUT at the same time, LordSmurf says you need both TBC's, that the frame one is not optional.

It's only "optional" in the sense that you're willing to FAFO (and waste time), in terms of frame loss/dropout and audio sync issues. Sometimes you'll win that gamble, sometimes you'll lose. But you won't know until you watch every second of every capture -- which literally nobody does until way after the capturing is done. Sometimes years later.

Quote:

So if I'm not going to be getting a Frame TBC for now, should I even worry about buying an ES15 if I'll just be using the S-VCR's TBC?

No, get the ES15, it's only $150 or less.

Most ES15 workflow are suggested with non-TBC JVC decks, though the with-TBC decks tend to be built better. You see a lot more "for repair" low-end units (no TBC) than high-end (with TBC).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

I think in this context the ES15 would only be a benefit for specific tapes that have problems that the internal TBC does not fix ie flagging or jitter.

That too.

Quote:

Not sure if the 1980 is safe from flagging specifically.

Nope.

Seems like in this scenario it's use what you have and hope you get lucky, hm.[/QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by woko2

When you use the ES15 with a JVC unit, do you keep the TBC on both units enabled? Or turn off the one on the JVC? Or just try alternating on and off to see which workflow looks best? And yeah I found the JVC unit I have now by pure luck, it was in pristine condition taken care of by one owner and sold it for only $100, so I figured that was going to be my best chance at getting a S-VCR with line TBC. Everything else I've just been patiently waiting to find in good condition/price.

The bolded one. But usually JVC will win.

Quote:

Are people still having trouble with Windows 7 64bit for running Virtual Dub with the ATI 600 USB? Should I try to get the 32bit version or should I be okay just using the Vista 64bit drivers as suggested?

Win7 is fine. It's 8/10/11 with issues, due to Microsoft updates. It you have a pre-2020 installer for 8/10, and never update, it's almost always fine. Almost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

If I use the ES15, I turn off the JVC's internal TBC. As only one should be active at a given time, they basically cancel each other out.

Or conflict.

Quote:

If you use an ES15, it's also best practice to route the audio through it as otherwise it adds an audio delay if you only have the video routed to it and the audio routed straight from the playback device to your capture card.

Important!

Quote:

Honestly $100 for a JVC seems like a steal to me, if problems start to show up then maybe you could contact Aramkolt? I know he lists the SR-VS10U as a model he can do refurb work for, but I'm not sure if he's able to do the V101US.

It's usually one of the easiest to fix. Usually. Depends on issue.

[woko2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Welcome.

Why would you think that? I'm not an ogre. --- Bigmouth was the ogre, I'm a Smurf!
But seriously, I help others, I don't scold them.

I'm not gonna lie LordSmurf, I was scared to open my thread up when I got an email notification saying you replied, but I was pleasantly surprised after reading it, so thanks for the warm welcome!

And thanks for answering my questions, I tried scouring the forum and just googling in general but couldn't seem to find a concrete answer, so I thought I'd create an account and just ask myself, so thanks for clearing that up! Glad to start off my journey here soon in what seems to be a great community