Tracking down DataVideo TBC-100 or TBC-3000?

[Nitro87]

Hi folks

I'm toying with trying to track down either a DataVideo TBC-100 or a TBC-3000 and I have some questions.

TBC-100
In regards to the TBC-100, this would be the best "space wise", but I have a modern PC with a PCIe motherboard and Windows 11.

- Do adapters exist that don't affect performance?
- Does it do both PAL and NTSC automatically depending on the signal it detects?

TBC-3000
I know that looking at the internals is sometimes the only way to "tell" why version you have.

- What elements am I looking for that are definitely bad?
- What elements am I looking for that are definitely good?
- Are there go-to folk on this forum that can do a full refurb/recap of them?
- Which versions do both PAL and NTSC automatically based on the signal it detects?

Thanks in advance.

[lordsmurf]

I have bad news for you.

DataVideo TBC-3000

In the 2020s, TBC-3000s have begun to break down. It was unforeseen, and the reasons for it are still unknown. The issue is interlace corruption, as described in some other threads here.

Examples here: https://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum/vcr...0-causing.html

Two of my own TBC-3000s are now paperweights, and I've replaced then with my backup Cypress and BV units.

Replacing caps has done nothing, no effect. I'm afraid it's a cascade issue. It may have started as bad caps, but it has harmed something else.

The versioning here is actually bad. The best quality units have the issue. The worst quality units are 50/50 at getting the issue. I have multiple generations of units, but still no rhyme/reason for the breakdown.

TBC-3000 does not have auto-switching PAL/NTSC, it's either manual change, or non-selectable (PAL only, NTSC only)

DataVideo TBC-100

These cards are unobtainium. I've seen less than a dozen cards in 20 years. Production was low.

But, to answer your question, no, there's no PCI>PCIe adapters that will work for it.

There are ways to build it into a bypass TBC-1000 (sort of), using a VP-299. I did that to one of my own TBC-100s, so I could easily move it to another system.

I've long wanted to build "DIY bypass kits" for TBC-1000s (and TBC-100s), but I lack the knowledge on casing. It needs partial aluminum body, partial 3D print parts.

Question:

Why are you seeking DataVideo models now?

[latreche34]

DataVideo TBC-100 cards are basically passive cards that sit in a PCIe slot but makes no contact with the motherboard because it has none, All the connections has to be made at the back of the card from and to the capture card sitting a slot next to it.

[Gary34]

There have been a few post of people wanting a TBC 3000 of a desirable generation. The TBC 3000s and also the Panasonic 1980p ags are both talked about soo much in some of the older post that people want those specific ones and overlook models that would work better for them. It doesn’t matter what generation is if it doesn’t work. What is your budget for it?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

There have been a few post of people wanting a TBC 3000 of a desirable generation. The TBC 3000s and also the Panasonic 1980p ags are both talked about soo much in some of the older post that people want those specific ones and overlook models that would work better for them. It doesn’t matter what generation is if it doesn’t work. What is your budget for it?

What really gets me is this:

- Person reads about a TBC (or VCR, or capture card, or proc amp, etc), and most online data regarding this gear traces back to my posts over the past 30 years. Either directly, or telephoned gamed by other. --- Why just me? Well, I heavily shared info online, others did not. That's just how people were in this niche, in the 90s-10s. Only in the 2020s have Youtubers started to heavily parrot this info, though often distorting it in the process.

- Person want one. Understandable. Everybody wants quality!

- But sometimes other decent models exist, and can be more easily located. In some cases, better "under the radar" gear exists, often from being sold outside North America, or even Europe, back when new. Sometimes the gear was discovered, or released, later that the oldest gear discussions, thus get less attention. ---- But also noting that many people who claim that other gear is "just as good" are full of crap, spreading misinformation, because they have zero expertise in the area. For example, "mixers as TBCs" (no!).

- I try to locate these "hidden gems", and provide them to the community here. And sometimes I find one!

- So I'll offer this "B" it to a person seeking the "A", and we have a discussion on it. But ultimately, they don't want it. They only want the popular mass-produced and/or over-discussed models (especially DataVideo TBC-1000, AVT-8710, JVC 9800, AG-1980P, ATI AIW AGP, others). In many cases, the person grills me about it, unconvinced it's the same or better. They don't believe me.

- Sometimes price has nothing to do with it. Even worse, sometimes the "hidden gem" I have is actually cheaper than the "popular model" due to obscurity!

So the person started out reading information from me (either directly or indirectly), then doesn't trust when I tell them there's an equal or better alternative, which I have available and fully refurbished. They trusted my oldest info (and still do), but then didn't trust my current info.

Make it make sense.

To me, this is an unspoken part of "dead internet theory". Info becomes so unattributed to the point where the original source (of the accepted, vetted, and respected info) is viewed with skepticism due to nobody realizing who's who anymore. In my case, it gets even more garbled because the vhs-decode kiddies over at Reddit (mostly young GenZ'ers) spread myth and FUD about both me and gear (because they don't know what they don't know).

I'm not saying that's the case here, but it's become more common through the years. Your post reminded me of it.

Gear has become much harder to find since the pandemic, and needs repair/refurb when located. You'll starve by only hunting for unicorns, while perfectly tasty horses and mules pass you by. (I know, yuck, horse meat, but just go with the analogy here. )

[aramkolt]

I've refurbed a couple of TBC3000/4000's as a service which usually involves mostly recapping.

A TBC-4000 is just two TBC-3000's stacked on top of each other, both with two channels each.

The one TBC4000 I worked on had some sort of issue that caused two of the four channels to simply not work even with recapping. Looking at it with a thermal camera, the chips heat up the same way as the non-working one which essentially rules out shorts or missing voltages.

There's a couple of TBC-3000s on ebay I see for around $1k, but, there's no way to know in advance if the units are repairable without trying the repair first.

If there was a full schematic/service manual for the TBC3000/4000 out there, it'd be a lot easier to track down specifically which chip/s cause the problem, but I'm unaware of one existing.

This is the mod I did on my own TBC-1000 to bypass the distribution amplifier:
https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vcr...tribution.html

Key takeaways is that the actual internal TBC card only receives 5VDC and the 12V that the stock ones are fed gets used more for the distribution amplifier and then immediately stepped down to 5V for the TBC card. You definitely don't need a fan inside, but I wanted one for theoretical longevity even though the hottest chip doesn't really go above 120F which is pretty tame for modern ICs. Adding fan drops it another 15F or so and I'm sure putting heatsinks on the chips would drop it even more. I was just a bit paranoid about permanently gluing or taping heatsinks on (in the unlikely event of possibly causing damage if they ever needed to be removed). The main potential downside of a fan is that it could theoretically introduce electrical noise. I haven't personally noticed any and that's a bit less likely since modern fans are brushless, hence no arcing that would cause increased EMI. I really should dig this unit back out and see if I can see any added noise with the oscilloscope on the power rails going into the TBC card when the fan is switched on vs off. The workaround to fan electrical noise would be just running a separate 5V supply to the fan by itself which would not be difficult, just more wires going in.

The reason to delete the distribution amplifier is that it can only really add noise and unnecessary power consumption when we really only need one output. I could see it being a handy feature back in the day if you were making several copies of a tape from one tape though.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

I've refurbed a couple of TBC3000/4000's as a service which usually involves mostly recapping.

Unfortunately, it's not removing this interlace issue. It either returns, or never leaves. Sometimes less frequent, sometimes no change to frequency. It sucks. For this reason, I've actively avoided buying DataVideo TBCs for at least a year now.

Quote:

A TBC-4000 is just two TBC-3000's stacked on top of each other, both with two channels each.

No, there's some added board differences. You can't convert a TBC-4000 to 2x TBC-3000 very easily.

Quote:

There's a couple of TBC-3000s on ebay I see for around $1k, but, there's no way to know in advance if the units are repairable without trying the repair first.

Yep, and the odds get worse every years. I'd wager money on both being bad. $1k is an expensive brick. Neither of the sellers know diddly about TBCs. Both are just "flipper" resellers. They think they found a brick of gold at an offline sale. Both are selling it "for parts" because they have no idea what is is, however it works -- or if there's even any useful parts to be had. This is a horrible setup, even worse than the "tested" and "working" BS auctions.

Quote:

This is the mod I did on my own TBC-1000 to bypass the distribution amplifier:
https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vcr...tribution.html

It's okay, but I'm not a fan of that mod. But to be fair, my past bypasses are not super great either. I think we can do better.

Quote:

The main potential downside of a fan is that it could theoretically introduce electrical noise.

Yep, and most do.

Quote:

The reason to delete the distribution amplifier is that it can only really add noise and unnecessary power consumption when we really only need one output. I could see it being a handy feature back in the day if you were making several copies of a tape from one tape though.

Correct.

[aramkolt]

Beyond the control boards that are in the front panel, the main cards are the same in a 3000/4000 and they even both have the TBC-3000 part number on them. If I was splitting a 4000 (into two 3000's), I'd probably just set the proc amp levels to unity and then forego the ability to adjust the proc amp on the "extra" TBC3000, essentially giving you a TBC-1000 (lacking a proc amp).

I still have the removed 4000 card around still from the one I refurbished. I could post pictures if that would be helpful, though seems the forum says "you have been blocked" whenever trying to upload photos recently with posts

Not that it is a great sample size, but I have not heard back from the owners of the 3000 and 4000 units that I refurbed that they stopped working or became otherwise unreliable. I refurbed them probably 4-6 months ago.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

are the same in a 3000/4000

The boards are not the same. The slave board has been physically altered.

Quote:

I'd probably just set the proc amp levels to unity and then forego the ability to adjust the proc amp on the "extra" TBC3000

That would be terrible. You'll neuter the unit.

Quote:

though seems the forum says "you have been blocked" whenever trying to upload photos recently with posts

Whenever that happens, immediately PM me with the timestamp of when you did it. When that happens, it's a new rogue CloudFlare setting that needs to be adjusted.

Quote:

Not that it is a great sample size, but I have not heard back from the owners of the 3000 and 4000 units that I refurbed that they stopped working or became otherwise unreliable. I refurbed them probably 4-6 months ago

As you surely know, that often means nothing -- especially in this case. The interlacing issue is pervasive, not easy to see, until you begin to tediously scrub captures in a timeline. Sometimes months go by, between acquisition (or re-acquisition from repair) and usage of gear -- which is why I've always give LTS (usage) to my buyers. People will sometimes ask for help years after getting the gear.

The first time I saw the interlacing error, I thought it was the AIW card or JVC VCRs, and was both surprised and saddened that it was the 3000. But now that we've identified the error, there's still no easy test, like the "JVC menu test" for other TBC issues.

I really, really wanted this to be simple caps replacement. It is not. I don't like losing TBCs.

[Gary34]

So if you are thinking about getting a TBC 3000 from eBay for parts it’s around a grand. It’s around 1,700 from what I’ve seen to buy a TBC 3000 from eBay that isn’t listed as for parts and they usually have some random PSU and if you ever talk to the person a lot of times they got them at an estate sale or something. If you try to buy one from a reputable dealer it’s around three grand. That isn’t just LS but VCR shop just sold one for around that on eBay if you look at recently sold. Well they were asking 2,921.24 who knows what is actually sold for. Facebook Goodwill or places like that are really risky. That usually involves a lot of searching. I only mention goodwill because Barry the Crab found a really good deal on an unused JVC with line TBC there. Those people that find that search often for years then have to gamble some. So there is quite a bit of time invested into the search. Also if you start looking in those kinds of places and look for the high risk high reward buys then it won’t be a certain gen of TBC 3000 because you most likely will not find it at those places. Something else will come your way. With those kinds of places you don’t pick a certain gen and TBC before your search. You see something and you decide to gamble and roll the dice.

LS used to sell the late gen AVTs for 1,600 I believe. Something like that seems like a better buy than an eBay TBC 3000 with everything going on with that model.

Also with the TBC 3000s some of them are preset to PAL even though the sticker says NTSC and vice versa.

[BarryTheCrab]

Slight correction for Gary34...
I got a very nice clean JVC-S3500U at the local SAVERS for $15.
At online Goodwill I found a WorldTop ComWorld CMD1200 (converter with frame TBC) for $12. New in Box.
At Ebay I found a JVC-S7800U with line TBC for $380, New in Box. Great unit and no scary DD.
My TBC-1000 I bought from LS a few years back and I paid maybe $400 and I thought I had lost my mind to pay so much!
Deals can be found, fewer and fewer, but I spend a fair amount of time looking, it can take years to score.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarryTheCrab

it can take years to score.

Years.
^ This needs to be highlighted.

Don't waste time, don't waste the tapes finite lifespan, seeking unobtainium. Buy good gear in good condition when available, even if it's "only" a fair price. (BTW, I'm actually underpriced to companies like Southern Advantage, or other sellers like TGrant. I'm just not competing with eBay crap, the online flea market, where sellers know nothing and lie about condition. eBay is gambling, not buying.)

It's taken me a decade to find some items, or 2nd copies of others -- and at any price.
Last year, I scored two of my unicorns, after about 10 years each. I had to pay up for both.
- One is so good, I want to hug it.
- But the other is not as impressive as I'd built it up in my head, and I may resell it. Still impressive, just not a game-changer to my current gear.

[aramkolt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Years.
^ This needs to be highlighted.

Last year, I scored two of my unicorns, after about 10 years each. I had to pay up for both.
- One is so good, I want to hug it.
- But the other is not as impressive as I'd built it up in my head, and I may resell it. Still impressive, just not a game-changer to my current gear.

Now you got me curious, what were the two unicorns?

[DeePeeGee]

My guess is one of the two is a JVC SR-W7U..

[latreche34]

There weren't a lot of W-VHS materials to digitize that are worth getting a deck for, and most of them are Japanese contents anyway, ReelyIntersting YT channel features most of those Japanese obscure formats in 4K.

[DeePeeGee]

Yes, but he's wanted one forever for the VHS playback... I dunno if he'd want to hug it though hah

[latreche34]

There are better machines at playing back VHS, W-VHS features may not benefit VHS playback, Not to mention that those would most certainly need service and recapping, tons of boards inside to go wrong, I've seen them quite few times on listed on eBay last year and about 3 are listed now, so they are not hard to find.

[aramkolt]

Can second latreche34 that WVHS machines usually need a lot of recapping at a minimum and the mechanism can be frustrating to retime *if* that is needed and I've come across ones that have cracked mechanism parts that can be tough to structurally repair effectively. There's also a spring that likes to come off and get lost in the JVC W5 machines. The WVHS portions usually don't work due to an insane number of SMT Caps (like over 100 of them?) on the WVHS digital board. Luckily, the WVHS stuff can be be completely disconnected and they'll work fine for regular VHS playback without the WVHS digital board.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

Now you got me curious, what were the two unicorns?

I'm not ready to discuss it.

But I will confirm one is an S-VHS deck that is never discussed. Not here, not Youtube, not anywhere. It's overlooked, was underproduced, and always trashed when located.

Not W-VHS, I don't want one, too many problems.

[BarryTheCrab]

What about that Mitsubishi HVV7000 I see on eBay? Is THAT a unicorn?