Go Back    Forum > Digital Video > Video Project Help > Project Planning, Workflows

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #201  
04-03-2015, 06:09 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 179
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Just got my barely used CCD-TRV65 shipped in. As promised, here are the short captures with Edit on and off (Both have AVT in the loop and NR off). Please note the first 4 seconds or so was waiting for the jitter count to die down on virtual dub and 2 seconds or so after is the camcorder looking for better tracking.

CCD-TRV65 Edit On:
http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita..._on_NR_off.avi
CCD-TRV65 Edit Off:
http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita..._on_NR_off.avi

and for good measure my parent's older DCR-TRV52 (Edit off, with AVT, TBC on, and NR off)
http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...R_DCRTRV52.avi

Hi Lordsmurf, if turning Edit on shuts off the TBC and NR, why does it give me the option to turn TBC as well as NR on?

Last edited by vhsdigital34; 04-03-2015 at 06:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
Someday, 12:01 PM
admin's Avatar
Ads / Sponsors
 
Join Date: ∞
Posts: 42
Thanks: ∞
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
  #202  
04-04-2015, 01:05 AM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,136
Thanked 351 Times in 287 Posts
I don't think EDIT mode has any effect on the TBC or DNR setting. The manual simply says "Select ON to minimize picture distortion when editing". I did notice one interesting artifact with these camcorders though. No matter if the TBC or DNR is on or off, there is a small amount of chroma ghosting/trailing, particularly with reds. This even includes Digital-8 camcorders playing back analog tapes. I can provide samples for the OCD, in most cases it isn't noticeable.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank NJRoadfan for this useful post: vhsdigital34 (04-04-2015)
  #203  
04-04-2015, 06:18 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,304
Thanked 2,270 Times in 1,943 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
On NORM, the picture mode does NOT affect clarity as it does with either 'SOFT' or 'SHARP', but simply applies an intraframe NR. I need to doublecheck myself, but I believe the TBC applies a tiny fractional interframe NR (hence all the accusations of a TBC making footage blurry). I may have those flipped. Either way, the 'Norm' NR doesn't affect the resolution.
I think I had this backwards. The "picture mode" is intraframe (within the frame), while the TBC NR is "interframe" (temporal). But the temporal is very minute, 1-3 frames max.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
The following users thank lordsmurf for this useful post: vhsdigital34 (04-04-2015)
  #204  
04-04-2015, 09:45 AM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 179
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thank you NJRoadfan. So we're back to square one. I did read that in the manual but had no idea what it meant (nor see noticeable differences). What kind of distortion does it mean? If it doesn't affect TBC or NR, sounds like it should be turned on in captures?

Thank you for clearing up the intra/inter Lordsmurf. So on the JVC SVHS players it's best to turn EDIT on with TBC for captures (since NORM applies some interframe NR) or does EDIT on only shut off TBC/NR on JVC SVHS decks and not on the Sony camcorders?

Also, is it my imagination or is the barely used CCR-TRV65 better than my parent's DCR-TRV52? Not sure if it's due to marketing/psychological (effect of knowing it's "barely used") but I see there's a difference in color (especially the reds) and the CCR-TRV65 capture is slightly less sharp (msgohan had mentioned the DCR-TRV52 capture was over sharpened and the camera may not be performing optimally). Is this correct or am I just too excited I got a barely used at almost half the price of my first attempted camcorder purchase (had to return two camcorders before this one)?

Last edited by vhsdigital34; 04-04-2015 at 09:58 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #205  
04-04-2015, 11:06 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,304
Thanked 2,270 Times in 1,943 Posts
"Best" is to have both kinds of NR in use. But this only applies to the JVC VCRs, not your situation.
At first, it sounded like it might be comparable. But NJRoadfan has confirmed it's not.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
The following users thank lordsmurf for this useful post: vhsdigital34 (04-04-2015)
  #206  
04-04-2015, 01:02 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 179
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thank you Lordsmurf. Was asking in case I had to go back and recapture the tapes I played back on the JVC but I'm very happy with those results thanks in big part to you and others on this site.

Yes, calling both "EDIT" really adds to the confusion on top of the vague/limited description. I don't see much of a difference between EDIT turned on/off so perhaps someone who has experience with these camcorders can let us know what the differences are.

Also, can someone confirm I'm right with the slight difference between my CCR-TRV65 and DCR-TRV52? Don't want the price I got it at and seller's marketing ("barely used") cloud my judgement.
Reply With Quote
  #207  
04-04-2015, 05:48 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,274 Times in 978 Posts
There isn't much difference between EDIT on or off -- but I repeat, NOT MUCH BUT ENOUGH. Edit-On looks subtley smoother and cleaner to me, especially if you deinterlace with QTGMC (at "super fast" to avoid most added processing) or use SeparatetFields. If strong interlace combing is removed, you get a better look at what's going on. Edit off has slightly more edge noise, which is odd because the edge noise is a bit sharper but other fine details are smeared or have miniscule artifacts in smooth surfaces. Admitted, by the time you apply some chroma denoising and color and contrast correction, it would be a contest to see who could find a difference in the results. But because this tape is rather low quality to begin with, I'd prefer Edit-On to get all I could from it.

As for your JVC, don't discount the fact that some tapes play better on different machines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vhsdigital34 View Post
Also, can someone confirm I'm right with the slight difference between my CCR-TRV65 and DCR-TRV52? Don't want the price I got it at and seller's marketing ("barely used") cloud my judgement.
The differences aren't slight. I'm surpirsed you didn't notice that the '52' is still reversing field order and makes frames hop (poor tracking of tape anomalies) in exactly the same frames that were messed up earlier with that camera. It has oversharpening artifacts (halos and hot spots on highlights). Small objects and smooth surfaces have artifacts and odd contour changes. It didn't handle the scene change at all well, the image is distorted on several frames. I don't think the '52' is giving you your money's worth with its tbc: edges are pretty ragged, compared to the other samples.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: vhsdigital34 (04-05-2015)
  #208  
04-04-2015, 08:54 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,136
Thanked 351 Times in 287 Posts
The CCD-TRV52 (DCR refers to digital recording cameras) is an older circa 1997 camcorder, it completely lacks any TBC or DNR system. Sony overhauled their 8mm lineup for 1998 to what is considered their "best" platform, which the CCD-TRV65 and all the models that followed are based on (InfoLithium batteries, TBC/DNR, "XR" format extension).

I happen to own both a CCD-TRV65 and a Digital-8 DCR-TRV840, their analog Video-8/Hi-8 performance is identical as far as I can tell, that includes the weird chroma artifacts I noted above.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank NJRoadfan for this useful post: vhsdigital34 (04-05-2015)
  #209  
04-05-2015, 01:30 AM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 179
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Sorry, that's a typo. It is indeed a DCR as it's a DCR-TRV520 (52 was a typo). It's my parent's old 2nd camcorder and although it was kept in a bag, it looks to be damaged judging by how it produces different video than the CCR-TRV65 I just received.

Thank you sanlyn, as of now I'm still in "capture everything I have" mode so I haven't gotten into the various post capture adjustments/tools/diagnostics such as avisynth. Once captured I'm planning on looking for faq or various pages here to become more familiar and review/utilize your instructions on the previous page. It seems a slight difference from an untrained eye is a big difference from a trained one. I hope to eventually get there. I've added the same footage from the previous as a frame of reference to evaluate the new CCR-TRV65 I just got so yes, the DCR-TRV520 capture should have the same defects. I noticed the portion you've provided 1fps breakdowns was in the beginning startup noise portion of the capture instead of the rest of the tracked footage. Is that the best spot to test for field reversals?
Reply With Quote
  #210  
04-05-2015, 07:42 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,274 Times in 978 Posts
Field reversal wasn't the only problem I mentioned with the other camera. It appears that it has other tracking problems. Look at the scene change in the '520' sample you posted. It's easy enough to load an avi in virtualdub and move the video at a slower rate or a frame at a time. Oversharpening, chroma shift, and other such problems should be more obvious during normal playback. Field reversal itself results in playback stutter.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: vhsdigital34 (04-05-2015)
  #211  
04-05-2015, 09:43 AM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 179
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thank you Sanlyn, I'll play around with virtualdub prior to going into "capture avi" mode which was all i've used it for thus far. Is the startup noise the best area to see these (i.e. should these errors normally not happen during the startup noise) because of the distorted lines on the top and bottom of the screen?
Reply With Quote
  #212  
04-05-2015, 09:52 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,136
Thanked 351 Times in 287 Posts
Wonder if the field reversal has something to do with the onboard DV encoder. The DCR-TRV520 is one of the D-8 camcorders that will stream analog tapes over Firewire. Thing is, field reversal shouldn't happen with analog tapes going directly to an analog output format! Any chroma ghosting or lag could be the artifact I mentioned earlier, but I didn't notice any really from the kid's red shirt. It would be more obvious against a blue or white background.
Reply With Quote
  #213  
04-05-2015, 10:51 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,304
Thanked 2,270 Times in 1,943 Posts
DV is bottom-field, while pretty much every other kind of capturing is top-field. (Another reason DV is poo to work with.)
Note that analog video doesn't have a specific field order.

I wonder if something is going awry there. Not sure how or where, but that's a good start.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #214  
04-06-2015, 07:45 AM
premiumcapture premiumcapture is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 585
Thanked 70 Times in 64 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJRoadfan View Post
Wonder if the field reversal has something to do with the onboard DV encoder. The DCR-TRV520 is one of the D-8 camcorders that will stream analog tapes over Firewire. Thing is, field reversal shouldn't happen with analog tapes going directly to an analog output format! Any chroma ghosting or lag could be the artifact I mentioned earlier, but I didn't notice any really from the kid's red shirt. It would be more obvious against a blue or white background.
If it was coming in as DV, would WinDV or something similar be able to recognize it?
Reply With Quote
  #215  
04-06-2015, 11:48 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,274 Times in 978 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by vhsdigital34 View Post
Thank you Sanlyn, I'll play around with virtualdub prior to going into "capture avi" mode which was all i've used it for thus far. Is the startup noise the best area to see these (i.e. should these errors normally not happen during the startup noise) because of the distorted lines on the top and bottom of the screen?
The best place to look for problems is during normal play. Startup noise will be removed anyway.

I'm curious as to why you have 4.5 seconds of startup noise. Are the video heads running but the tape is not? That creates damage where the heads scrub the tape over and over. The way most people capture is:
- Define the output file, etc., then start the capture.
- Start the tape.
If you have dropped frames during the startup noise, who cares? It won't be in kept the final video.

If you're capturing a specific part of the tape (i.e, not from the beginning), start the tape play and wait until you get a few seconds before the segment that you want, then start the capture. If you get some extra lead-in frames that you don't want, cut them out later.

VirtualDub won't be the only tool you need. Many glitches can't be fixed with VirtualDub. You really need VirtualDub and at least some basic Avisynth for analog glitches. The two samples attached are a quick levels fix and cleanup with Avisynth and some color tweak in VirtualDub. Sample2 has a glitchy frame or two, fixed a bit with ReplaceFramesMC in Avisynth. Sample1 with Edit-on didn't seem to have those two glitchy frames, and I still say Edit-On looks a little better.

Your Sample3 has a lot of problems. The camera needs maintenance. To demonstrate problems that are likely due to the tape itself, as well as poor tracking, and how AVisynth can often work a repair, look at Sample3_Sample3_original_bad_frames_4fps.mp4, attached. This are the opening frames of the scene change in that sample, deinterlaced to show why those frames hop and look smeared when the scene starts. The video runs at 4fps. The short sample plays 3 times in the mp4.

Sample3.mpg is that sample fixed up a bit, including the scene change. Some of this was tweaked in VirtualDub, but you need Avisynth for the frame repairs. You can see the camera's oversharpening effects and ghosting on the date characters.


Attached Files
File Type: mpg Sample1.mpg (8.35 MB, 6 downloads)
File Type: mpg Sample2.mpg (7.89 MB, 2 downloads)
File Type: mp4 Sample3_original_bad_frames_4fps.mp4 (14.30 MB, 5 downloads)
File Type: mpg Sample3.mpg (18.28 MB, 5 downloads)
Reply With Quote
The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: vhsdigital34 (04-11-2015)
  #216  
04-11-2015, 04:32 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 179
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
wow. Thanks sanlyn!! I didn't get an email notification that I had new posts. Once I have everything captured, I'll definitely be learning to pick up how to use avisynth. It's great to see that I can make significant corrections after the capture!

What kind of store should I bring the DCR-TRV520 for repairs? Is this repairable to the point it will play back tapes flawlessly? I wouldn't even know where to start and I'm in NY. There're a lot of places that claim they know what they're doing but oftentimes don't… That's what lead me here to begin with.

As for the start up noise capture, it always takes my rig 5 seconds to get the jitter counter to 0. Also, on most of my tapes, there isn't enough empty space in the beginning to let it play out. Still not comfortable cutting out video without potentially changing the rest or mess up the file for future edits (viritualdub/avisynth/etc). I like to do things once I understand what the implications are.

I'm seeing some strange behavior with my new CCR-TRV65 and I'm hoping it's either tap damage or something similar.

The first thing I've noticed is there's a lot of bright flashes that occur during playback on my CCR-TRV65 that doesn't occur on my DCR-TRV520 (but I see the screen flicker more on the DCR…). Is this just damaged tape or is the CCR-TRV65 damaged as well?
CCR-TRV65 flashing:
http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...5_flashing.avi
DCR-TRV520 not flashing:
http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...0_flashing.avi

In a few sets of tapes, the CCR-TRV65 won't produce a picture and the audio only produces noise while the DCR-TRV520 will produce both video and audio. Is this what happens when you play Digital8 on the CCR-TRV65? I don't know if this was recorded on Digital8 but then again I don't know what the playback looks like when someone attempts to play Digital8 on a nonDigital8 player. The other thing that makes this a bit more murky for me is that two of the tapes show both VideoHi8 and Digital8 but the one tape that shows the same results only show Hi8. Is this Hi8 tape possibly recorded as Digital8? Is that even possible? If non of these are the reasons, what could be the reason for this error? Is my CCR-TRV65 damaged as well?

CCR-TRV65 playback error:
http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...ybackError.avi
DCR-TRV520 playback:
http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...ybackError.avi

This is very frustrating… I just want a camcorder that plays without issues...

Last edited by vhsdigital34; 04-11-2015 at 04:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #217  
04-11-2015, 04:56 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,136
Thanked 351 Times in 287 Posts
The last clip certainly looks like a Digital-8 tape. Playback of tape format is obvious, you will hear the tape transport speed up and there will be a D8 logo on the camera's LCD along with "16-bit" indicating the audio track format. Any time you play an analog tape in the unit, the tape transport will slow down and a logo showing "D8 -> Hi8" will pop up indicating the player is switching modes.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank NJRoadfan for this useful post: vhsdigital34 (04-11-2015)
  #218  
04-11-2015, 05:06 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,304
Thanked 2,270 Times in 1,943 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by vhsdigital34 View Post
wow. Thanks sanlyn!! I didn't get an email notification that I had new posts.
Odd. I got the queue email. There are no mail delivery errors to Gmail.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #219  
04-11-2015, 05:49 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 179
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
I don't know what to say lordsmurf. I've just did a search for all things digitalfaq and I see the notification on 4/5 but not 4/6. I did get a notification on 4/6 for a different thread. Even today, I got NJRoadfan's but not yours

Thank you NJRoadfan, I will check the DCR once I get back. Can a non Digital8 tape be recorded as such?

Should the bright flashing clips of the CCR-TRV65 be considered a defect from the camcorder?
Reply With Quote
  #220  
04-11-2015, 06:22 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,136
Thanked 351 Times in 287 Posts
The Digital 8 camcorders only record in digital, they can only playback analog tapes. There are no "special" blank tapes, they are all Hi-8 (preferred) or Video-8 cassettes. Later Hi-8 tapes sold by Sony included the D8 logo and recording times, but were otherwise unchanged media.

The CCD-TRV65 problem could be dirty heads. Looks like it isn't playing back a field of video.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank NJRoadfan for this useful post: vhsdigital34 (04-12-2015)
Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Any before/after samples using a Behringer audio mixer? premiumcapture Capture, Record, Transfer 2 05-20-2014 04:59 PM
VHS to PC digitization project, what to capture with? (ATI 600 vs EZCap samples) tywald Capture, Record, Transfer 18 11-24-2013 12:47 PM
Video conversion service advice? also HuffYUV vs DV Kereellis Project Planning, Workflows 12 02-16-2010 01:49 PM
Samples of Restored Audio [DOWNLOADS] admin Restore, Filter, Improve Quality 0 09-14-2009 10:50 PM
How to upload samples to digitalFAQ server (FTP info) admin General Discussion 0 04-28-2006 09:13 AM

Thread Tools



 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:18 AM