VCR for VHS digitization: S365U vs. AG-1960?

[Logan Jones]

Hello, I'm a new member of this forum. I'm looking to digitize some pre-recorded movies that are only available on the VHS format. The purpose of digitizing these movies is so I can review them for my YouTube channel in the coming future. (They're a big part of my childhood, these tapes!)

Firstly, there's a listing for a JVC S365U for $60. While it doesn't have a TBC, it does have a high-quality tape transport, and for pre-recorded movies, it might just do the trick.

Additionally, there is also a listing for a Panasonic AG-1960 for $85. Also has no TBC, but Panasonics are good for handling all the more finicky tapes the JCVs have trouble with.

Since neither of these have an internal TBC, I intend to use a poor-man's option: Using a DVD recorder to "stabilize" the video; (Yes, I know its not a true TBC.)

I'm a bit torn between a Panasonic DMR-ES15 or a DMR-ES10... This video clarifies some things:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_xue8-gGLM

Based on the description below this video, the ES10 has more stable video, but the white level is at 212. The ES15 has slightly less stable video than the ES10, but it has better white level at 225, and black level at 0. Still, is it possible to bring up the white level in post? Which DVD recorder do you guys recommend?

As for video capture, I was thinking about using a device called a RetroTink Mini: A high-quality linedoubler that have a variety of filters for combing, luma, and notch artifacts. While primarily used for gaming Mike Chi, the inventor, specified it also be used for VHS capture in the right hands. In pass-through mode it can convert the raw analog output in composite or S-video to HDMI and the 480i footage can be captured via a Datapath E1s Pro capture card.

So what do you guys think? Which VCR should I buy? Or should I buy both just in case I encounter problematic tapes I want to digitize in the future? Is there anything I should be notified of first or do?

Thanks!

(I'll update if things change.)

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logan Jones

JVC S365U for $60. ... it does have a high-quality tape transport,

Meh. You're still going to have lots of timing/wiggle/chroma quality issues that must be resolved with a line TBC (even if line of the ES10/15). These are far better decks that plain VCR VCRs, maybe even some of the lowest end JVC non-TBC units. But condition matters.

Quote:

Panasonics are good for handling all the more finicky tapes the JCVs have trouble with.

No. That's only true of some select models of Panasonic, not all Panasonic.

Quote:

I'm a bit torn between a Panasonic DMR-ES15 or a DMR-ES10... This video clarifies some things:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_xue8-gGLM

The ES10 is slightly stronger than the ES15, correct. But it has to be a really bad nth gen signal. Also realized PAL and NTSC differ some. The NTSC isn't quite that far apart.

Quote:

e ES10 has more stable video, but the white level is at 212.
the ES10, but it has better white level at 225

You're looking at a PAL issue, not NTSC. PAL has known luma changes.

ES10/15 is not transparent, there are side effects. It was never suggested as an always-on TBC, but instead for net-gain situations where it removed tearing (even if harming some other aspects, the end product was superior).

Quote:

As for video capture, I was thinking about using a device called a RetroTink Mini:

No. That's for video games. VHS tapes will look terrible using that thing. You need a quality SD capture card known for quality -- not a video game card, gamer card, HD card, etc.

Quote:

in the right hands.

This is a BS statement. It's inferior, the end. Great for the intended purpose (old games), nothing else. It's a nifty item, I respect it for what it is. But it's a tool. Use the right tool for the task. For VHS, wrong tool. Like banging in screws with a hammer, or hitting nails with a screwdriver. It's just dumb.

Quote:

convert the raw analog output in composite or S-video to HDMI

This is a horrible idea. Don't do that.

Quote:

So what do you guys think? Which VCR should I buy? Or should I buy both just in case I encounter problematic tapes I want to digitize in the future?

You need to understand that, for video gear, eBay is not buying. eBay is gambling. It's turned into a VCR dumping ground, where at least 85% of all decks are crap, and that includes all the "tested" and "working" decks. Sellers of VCRs usually have zero knowledge on the deck, and lights = working, with any quality signal = tested. It's ridiculous.

So, buy both? Expect only one to work correct (or at all), maybe neither.

But be wary.

Somebody found a dead mouse in a "tested" VCR (it was just a husk and fur, almost petrified), dead roaches, both dead and live spiders. Some years ago, I bought something "like new" and "tested" from Florida, which had a fan. It did look nice, on the outside. It spewed out mold spores when plugged in, and I was rushed to the nearest emergency center for extreme breathing issues, I went into allergic shock, airways closing up.

I'm not exaggerating here. The forum has plenty of stories of eBay shenanigans, including some known VCR scammers in Houston.

[Logan Jones]

Thanks for replying.

Dang, that info about the scam VCRs was... heavy.

And I understand now that the RetroTink would be a terrible option, so thanks for clarifying.

By the way, the JVC VCR is from Nemo, Texas... I'm not buying it from Ebay, mind you. I found a listing on Offerup. Suspicious? Should I ask the seller to verify its condition via photos or video? If so, how?

And even if the VCR is verifiably in working order, should I even bother? I already have a few VCRs, but they're merely low-end consumer decks. I've a Daewoo DV-T8DN, a Mitsubishi HS-U69, and a Sony SLV-D370P. For pre-recorded movie tapes, would getting the S365U or AG-1960 be a redundancy?

I just want a quality VHS capture of some prerecorded movies without spending so much...

[lordsmurf]

Nemo is hours away from Houston, nearer to Dallas, and right near Dinosaur State Park (neat place if you've never been, if ever in the area, lots of fossils). Nemo is one of those tiny towns that has a gas station, church, few houses, and nothing else. Not even a stop light. Blink and you'll miss it.

The decks you mentioned here are from the early 90s, and the best decks weren't really made until 1995. Those are S-VHS, but it doesn't mean much. The decks were built better than consumer decks, color/sharpness maybe more accurate, transports more stable, but that's about it. On the VCR suggestions list, those were sort of an "honorable mention" category, not so much an actual suggestion. (I want to revamp that list sometime.)

That Mitsubishi, or the Sony, may be decent enough with the ES10.

But again, deck condition is what matters. With all of the models being discussed here, the condition of the deck is what matters most. And it's hard to convey some of that online, both in forum posts or Youtube videos. Part of it is because you need a test bench (tools, test tapes, etc).

So for most people, we must rely on output. So where is a video sample -- the same sample clip -- from each current VCR?

[Logan Jones]

I actually don't have a means of capturing footage from VCRs at the moment. I was intending to create my VHS capture setup from the ground up by buying the most important device first, which is the VCR. Then I would get the other parts later, like the TBC, video capture device, etc.

I apologize if I've given you the wrong impression.

[lordsmurf]

In this instance, I'd look to get the capture card first.
Then test the VCRs currently in hand, by posting samples and asking for guidance here.
And TBC last, so you can then start the actual project.

[Logan Jones]

Ok, then. It seems I still have a lot to learn, so I appreciate your help.

With this new info, I'll probably just put a hold on my VHS capture for now... Seeing as its a rather complex process.

Thanks again for your help!

[lordsmurf]

Giving up isn't really a good solution, either.

Converting tapes is easy -- but will probably look pretty terrible.
Doing conversion with quality just takes some careful planning, combined with not being too cheap for your own good.

- Cheap + lazy = crap quality outcomes.
- Research + sensible budgets = good outcomes.

Buying the wrong deck is just throwing away money. It's negative economics. Yes, video gear has a cost, but I want you to spend those funds wisely. That's why I suggest the known-good capture card first, which will help you analyze decks (starting with the ones you already have).

Once VCR and capture card are set, TBC is next -- and then the fun begins.

[Logan Jones]

Oh, I understand. I'm not giving up, though. Its just that I was under the impression that, by getting one or both of these VCRs plus a DVD recorder as a "TBC" I could achieve an "entry-level" video capture setup. Of course, I posted this thread on here because I am naive, and needed some correction.

And besides, all I really want to do is digitize three pre-recorded VHS movies... but perhaps sometime in the future.

Additionally, I also wanted to digitize some of my old family videos that are on Hi-8 and VHS-C, but seeing as how those formats are finicky and/or fragile, I wanted to leave the more delicate and complex work to you guys. (I sent an email weeks ago about this forum's digitizing services, but haven't gotten a response...)

Anyway, I'm a busy college student who may be biting off a little more he can chew right now. And honestly, I'm a gamer by heart, not a video restoration expert. (Can'tcha tell? ) I wanted to make videos about reviewing games, but I also took a liking to old video formats. Going down this avenue of VHS digitization got my gears rolling, unaware of how much I was getting into. I got excited about seeing those listings, but if I'm doing things in the wrong order, I should probably wait. Maybe I'll just save my money for now and save up for a better setup in the future.

[lordsmurf]

In terms of pre-recorded (retail) movies, those will likely have anti-copy (Macrovision, etc). And in that case, the ES10/15 will not work. While the line TBC is strong, and the non-TBC frame sync sometimes helps, the unit is crippled. It has a swiss cheese allowance for Macrovision to mess with usage. For non-homemade movies, an actual TBC is required. Those half-baked "Macrovision removers" (clarifiers, whatever) never work well, or at all. At best, the brightness values jump around, at worst it's totally worthless junk.

We'll look for that email tonight or tomorrow. Busy inbox at times, sometimes overlook emails.

While I'm disappointed to see the projects ending before even starting, I am glad that you didn't make the newbie mistake of buying the wrong gear, or even the right gear in bad condition. That happens too often.

[Logan Jones]

Hey, this Logan. Its been a few months, hasn't it?

Anyway, I wanted to ask you about a listing for a JVC HR-7600U. Seeing as the HR-7600U is a recommended model with a TBC, I thought I could pick it up. The S-VCR is on Craiglist in Alabama, but its in a bundle with two other pieces of JVC electronic equipment: A JVC TD-W209 cassette deck, and a JVC compact disc player/changer.

Now I live in GA, and from my location to Alabama, its a two-and-a-half drive from me. For $50, you think its worth it? I haven't seen any other recommended VCRs near me or for a decent price... except this one.

If you think its a good idea, perhaps I should make the drive just to make sure it works properly when I get there?

Thanks!

[BelowZero]

$50?? Hell, yeah! I have and use a Panasonic AG-1980 as well as both the JVC HR-S9900U and HR-S7600U. I love all 3 of them and IMHO they all are everything they're hyped up to be. But my little 7600 always seems to produce the cleanest and sharpest picture. Perhaps the heads don't have as much wear as the others, I don't know. I just know that I'm always happy with the results. So for $50 and a nice drive I wouldn't hesitate to take a look. I'd probably buy it sight unseen for that price.

If it plays well, you're a lucky man but be mindful that these models use the dynamic drive system and there are 2 little plastic gears that have a tendency to crack and render the machine (almost) useless. There's a lot of threads here regarding that issue so you can check those out. I use the machine to play only. No fast-forwarding or re-winding which helps preserve the internal organs. You'll probably figure out fast if you have that problem because the VCR won't remain powered up more than a few seconds once the gears crack.

But it's certainly worth the effort to check it out. It's a good (and recommended) VCR for transferring your tapes to digital.

[latreche34]

HR-S7600U worth driving 2 hours if it's working, And don't even pickup the rest of the junk, Dual cassette decks are crap no one wants them, CD players from the 80's are worth some money if clean, CD changers and 90's single disc players not so much.