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  #1  
05-18-2022, 04:10 PM
mrwassen mrwassen is offline
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Hi guys,

I was hoping to get some feedback on 2 video capture workflow options which I have available and have described below. The subject of the workflow are various PAL home movie tapes belonging to friends and family. I will later be doing some NTSC too, but for now I am focusing on PAL.

I realize the 7500 does not have an onboard TBC, so I plan to get hold of a 7860 in the near future which does.

I also have a ADVC-110 available which does a nice job, but am unable to regulate audio volume on the device, hence using the ADVC-3000 which I picked up some years ago at a reasonable price. (The tapes have a wide variety of audio levels and it is nice to be able to calibrate this).

DV Option
=========
JVC HR-S7500EK >
<S-video / RCA audio>
ADVC-3000 >
<DV2 4 pin>
PCIe Firewire card
Capture software = Scenalizer (>avi)
Post capture editing = Vegas Pro v.16
Render mp4 / h264

Decklink Option
===============
JVC HR-S7500EK >
<S-video / RCA audio>
ADVC-3000 >
<SDI output via BNC cable>
Blackmagic DeckLink Mini Recorder 4K PCIe Card
Capture software = OBS studio (>mkv)
Post capture editing = Vegas Pro v.16
Render mp4 / h264

Also, any thoughts on the value of using ADVC-3000 vs the ADVC-110? The quality coming out of the 3000 seems really good but I have not really done any direct compares with the 110 output as of yet.

Any advice/ideas/guidance would be much welcome.

Thanks

Dennis
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  #2  
05-18-2022, 10:24 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
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I've been in a lookout for an ADVC-3000 to add to my equipment for years I've yet to find one for a reasonable price, Anyway make sure the ADVC-3000 is used in analog to SDI mode, no DV crap. Also make sure your SDI interface (the BM decklink) is capable of SMPTE 259M-C rec.601, that's the right standard for digital video signal originated from analog video sources, not 480p or some other weird HD/4K settings, Don't use OBS, use MediaExpress and output YUV2 8bit lossless AVI, encode later.

Alternatively if the decklink has a Y/C analog input try it instead of the ADVC-3000 and compare the two results, though it will not have a frame TBC like the ADVC-3000.

I'm not sure about Vegas pro, I don't use such software.

You don't need the ADVC-110.

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  #3  
05-19-2022, 12:52 AM
mrwassen mrwassen is offline
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Hi Latreche,

Thanks for your input, this is helpful. I have attached my ADVC-3000 and BM Media Express Setup. I don't see the exact options you listed in the BM Media Express, but I tried to get as close as possible.

The display on the ADVC-3000 regarding the video side of things is not very clear, but the connection is S-video from VCR to ADVC-3000 and RCA audio from the VCR to "unbalanced" audio in (channel 1 and 2) on the 3000. The output from the 3000 is SDI port to the BM Decklink card using a BNC cable.

The reason I have avoided the BM Media Express software is that there is no way to time limit the capture, so even with my beefy SSD partition I could run out of space if I leave the capture unattended (to get some z's for example). (OBS does have that feature and supports the card as source input.).

I would like to keep the 3000 in the equation as it seems to eliminate or at least limit audio out of sync conditions which often seem to occur when capturing mediocre material with jumpy sequences etc.

Just out of curiosity (bearing in mind that I am relatively new to all of this), could you please provide a few bullets on your concerns with going the DV route?

Thanks in advance,

Dennis


Attached Images
File Type: jpg ADVC-3000-1.jpg (34.9 KB, 8 downloads)
File Type: jpg ADVC-3000-2.jpg (27.9 KB, 6 downloads)
File Type: jpg BM Decklink Options.jpg (71.9 KB, 7 downloads)
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  #4  
05-19-2022, 04:05 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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If BM express doesn't allow the needed functionality (also I don't get why it still doesn't allow use of windows codecs or at least prores like on macos), amarectv or virtualdub may work. Alternatively one can use ffmpeg but that may be a bit clunky (I think there are some other open source BM card specific softwares too but can't find it right now.)

If you use OBS you have to be really careful with color space and resolution settings to avoid any unwanted conversions and it messing with the image at least. Capturing

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  #5  
05-19-2022, 04:29 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrwassen View Post
Thanks for your input, this is helpful. I have attached my ADVC-3000 and BM Media Express Setup. I don't see the exact options you listed in the BM Media Express, but I tried to get as close as possible.
625i/50 AVI YUV 4:2:2 10bit 270 Mbit/s when carried over SDI is exactly SMPTE 259M-C, The reason to capture 8bit is that script software don't work with 8bit files, if you use NLE you can go 10bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrwassen View Post
The reason I have avoided the BM Media Express software is that there is no way to time limit the capture, so even with my beefy SSD partition I could run out of space if I leave the capture unattended (to get some z's for example). (OBS does have that feature and supports the card as source input.).
Even if you enable "stop capture if dropped frames are detected"? This should take care of it when the tape reaches the end, Unless the TBC inside the ADVC-3000 keeps supplying a clean frame sync signal even with no video. Otherwise just use vdub or AmarecTV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrwassen View Post
I would like to keep the 3000 in the equation as it seems to eliminate or at least limit audio out of sync conditions which often seem to occur when capturing mediocre material with jumpy sequences etc.
Yes, because it has a full frame TBC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrwassen View Post
Just out of curiosity (bearing in mind that I am relatively new to all of this), could you please provide a few bullets on your concerns with going the DV route?
DV is lossy and have half the chroma info for both NTSC (horizontally) and PAL/SECAM (vertically) compared to 4:2:2, And when converted to h.264 or any modern codec that's another loss you will have to deal with, AVI 4:2:2 is as lossless as you can get from an analog video source.

Last edited by latreche34; 05-19-2022 at 04:43 AM.
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  #6  
05-19-2022, 07:40 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Quote:
...but am unable to regulate audio volume on the device...
Adding a modest cost audio mixer is an approach to solving this.

The DV signal has adequate bandwidth (frequency response) to capture the resolution of VHS/S-VHS/Video8/Hi8 including the color under recording output (which is very crippled). However, it uses lossy compression and that results in issues for subsequent restoration, especially with home videos that typically have a lot of noise that waste bits in the compression scheme.
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  #7  
05-19-2022, 10:52 AM
RobustReviews RobustReviews is online now
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SDI is great, and often overlooked.

We do use DV sometimes for domestic videos, PAL is perfectly passable and still considerably better than most cheapo methods - NTSC looks pretty dire though.

When you account for the placebo of knowing about the lossy compression, A/B with DV vs. AN Other capture methods with PAL isn't tremendously noticeable. It's not as good, but it's not the huge casm encountered with DV-NTSC captures.

Decent DV units with PAL can look perfectly adequate, are they the best? No, are they cheap enough and practical - yes. They're still an order better than cheap USB sticks or no-name cards though.

SDI is my preferred route at the moment, but they're all tools in the box.
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  #8  
05-19-2022, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cafecafe View Post
Hfrom globalmediapro
You have to be really careful with GMP. Very often, what they advertise/claim to have, and what they actually have, is not the same thing. Ask questions. If they don't know, don't buy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobustReviews View Post
When you account for the placebo of knowing about the lossy compression, A/B with DV vs. AN Other capture methods with PAL isn't tremendously noticeable. It's not as good, but it's not the huge casm encountered with DV-NTSC captures.
The main betrayer is always blocks.

Slight fuzzy image, due to chroma smearing, but it can be tolerable like DVDs. The ingest quality matters, source tape matters. Make or break. It's more obvious as screen size increases, such as viewed on typical large HDTV.

Colors can be hot, on both PAL and NTSC. Chroma processing is often to blame. Saturation is not pumped, but it can seem that way. NTSC colors are cooked, but the PAL is more nuanced.

PAL and NTSC both have a "DV look" to them, what was referred to as a "digital look" before Youtube/etc existed.

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  #9  
05-19-2022, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
The main betrayer is always blocks.

Slight fuzzy image, due to chroma smearing, but it can be tolerable like DVDs. The ingest quality matters, source tape matters. Make or break. It's more obvious as screen size increases, such as viewed on typical large HDTV.

Colors can be hot, on both PAL and NTSC. Chroma processing is often to blame. Saturation is not pumped, but it can seem that way. NTSC colors are cooked, but the PAL is more nuanced.

PAL and NTSC both have a "DV look" to them, what was referred to as a "digital look" before Youtube/etc existed.
You're not wrong, I stand by that it's far from unacceptable with PAL though. Most digitised video in my opinion looks digitised to one degree or another? Do you agree?

The below shouldn't be conflated with what is technically correct, and is simply descriptive:

The majority of our work for domestic customers is being transcoded to downloaded for mobile devices though, the small screen for us is technically our target. More customers now request stream/transcode options as opposed to straight files as having the videos 'to hand' on a mobile device or tablet is actually more useful for them than watching in the living room. 40% of our domestic customers in the first quarter of 2022 solely wanted mobile streaming options.

That's a sample of one business in one market, however. I have an ET bill to prove where most of our media is being consumed. Here at least, 'big screen' living room viewing is boomer behaviour, I don't know how it's going in the US but broadcast television (which I know is not the same) but as a broad pattern under-30s here consume little broadcast TV. I can't really draw a parallel between the age of customers and the media they're consuming it on as even some very mature customers are more concerned with having their precious memories on their smartphone than consuming in front of the TV.

These are very broad statements, but for the non-enthusiast or professional I wonder if we've crossed the line with this, and it's actually going to make less sense to worry about large screen quality in the next few years?

I've dubbed cassettes for the car this afternoon though, so diff'rent strokes 'n' all.

TL;DR - Customers who watch converted videotape on 'actual' televisions are diminishing by our sales information.


To 'circle back' as one famous US press secretary likes to say, give the 110 a go for comparison, they're far from a bad little unit if you accept their limitations.
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  #10  
05-19-2022, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobustReviews View Post
You're not wrong, I stand by that it's far from unacceptable with PAL though. Most digitised video in my opinion looks digitised to one degree or another? Do you agree?
Usually, yes. Some more than others. Most more than not. It takes multiple factors colliding just right to look still look analog.

Quote:
More customers now request stream/transcode options as opposed to straight files as having the videos 'to hand' on a mobile device or tablet is actually more useful for them than watching in the living room. 40% of our domestic customers in the first quarter of 2022 solely wanted mobile streaming options.
Interesting. Most of ours are lossless requests. Maybe lossless + deimterlaced streaming copy for immediate watching, while they continue to edit, restore, and otherwise process their final copies. The MKV version helps with their project, easy preview. But quite a few are business level customers: archives, indy filmmakers, etc. Though home users, too.

Quote:
'big screen' living room viewing is boomer behaviour, I don't know how it's going in the US
I always cringe when I see that term. My response is always "alright kid". (I'm GenX, don't call me a Boomer. And we invented attitude, you little welp. )

I guess that's just your customer demographic? As you Brits would say, you seem to have a lot of mouthy prats as customers, if that's really the words they use.

Quote:
but broadcast television (which I know is not the same) but as a broad pattern under-30s here consume little broadcast TV. I can't really draw a parallel between the age of customers and the media they're consuming it on as even some very mature customers are more concerned with having their precious memories on their smartphone than consuming in front of the TV.
That is interesting. I think this is a case of stereotypes being accurate. "Fat lazy Americans" = couch potatoes = sit and watch TV. After all, we invented the term "Netflix and chill".

Around here, it's mostly only the youngest (and non-customer) Tiktok/Z generation that watches phones. And they will probably grow out of that, as eyesight fails you as early as 30s, definitely by 40s.

Audio also matters to many. I sometimes watch stuff on my tablet, but not anything long, as even the "good" speakers on my higher-end Samsung tablet suck compared to my TV, or even our non-work computer.

UK may especially have a gripe about TV, due to BBC. Taxes, social politics, etc. I can see that having done damage to the TV viewership in the past decade.

But Europeans in general seem to be more mobile, have less stuff. So TV in the pocket. I can see it. I don't think that translate to USA/Canada/Mexico, Japan, Australia/NZ.

Quote:
These are very broad statements, but for the non-enthusiast or professional I wonder if we've crossed the line with this, and it's actually going to make less sense to worry about large screen quality in the next few years?
I don't think so, no. Attitude changes with age, especially regrets about doing something cheap and lazy. The young'uns may be fine with a crap conversion of grandma's wedding VHS tape, but we they get married, or want to show it to their kids, that's when the regret will seep in. But not everybody is like that, not now, even less in the future. You also have to think about things like documentaries, and filmmakers are forever having trouble getting good sources, or having to restore junk as best as possible. It's not pretty.

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  #11  
05-19-2022, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Usually, yes. Some more than others. Most more than not. It takes multiple factors colliding just right to look still look analog.
Quote:
Alright kid.
That's a perfect and very common greeting from one individual to another in Manchester. I had to read that twice as it didn't fit in the context I read it. Other places may use "hello" or "hi". Manchester, "alright kid" is a perfect informal way to great a friend or acquaintance

"Alright our kid" may be reserved for a younger relation or close friend, there's a distinction!
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  #12  
05-19-2022, 02:25 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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[soapbox] Quality conversion of VHS and other home formats are for those interested in history - in past events. And my observation is that it continues to diminish among the younger segments of the population. "Boomers' if you will were more interested in fine things, like china, crystal, silver flat ware, quality furniture, grandma's antique stuff, etc. The children of boomers have much less interest in it. And even less as you look at the even younger.

Example: 20 years ago a school group I support produced a video yearbook on VHS. About 70% of the members families paid $25 for a VHS tape shot of S-VHS/Hi8, edited to S-VHS and copied to VHS. In 2019 (the last pre-COVID year) maybe 50% picked-up their free DVD that was shot and edited in HD before conversion to DVD. Only a few wanted a free Blu-ray. This year it looks like a HD MP4 file download (shrunk to 3600 kbps) will be the favorite out pacing Blu-ray and DVD by a 2:1 margin.

The desire for high quality conversion is a niche market/demand these days. Few takes the time or energy required to appreciate quality stuff. The exception is large screens for sports and adult entertainment. People will say it looks nice, and then ignore what it takes to get there.

On audio, hearing loss among the old is a give, and among the young concert goers argues that ear buds and small screen players meet their quality needs. IMHO the participants here do not accurately reflect the viewers at large. [/soapbox]
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  #13  
05-19-2022, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpalomaki View Post
IMHO the participants here do not accurately reflect the viewers at large.
While not the "at large" masses, it's still a large segment of society that expects quality.

Why? Complaining is still a popular pastime, both legit and non-legit. On one end is the silly "VHS to HD" crowed that can never be pleased, due to obvious reasons (that they apparently cannot fathom more often than not). And on the other is the "why is it __" (insert actual error here). That bangs the drum to seek better -- as it should.

Ironically it's generally males that seek quality of video, and females are not interested, sometimes even trying to dissuade the male from partaking in the quality task. With other things, it's usually opposite, women nagging men for better. Why? Probably due to technical requirements. Stereotypes exists for a reason, and women dislike tech more than not. "Boy toys", as they often say. Obviously this isn't always accurate, nor necessarily even a majority. But certainly a plurality.

Interesting discussion in this thread.

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  #14  
05-19-2022, 03:06 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Quote:
While not the "at large" masses, it's still a large segment of society that expects quality.
Even if only 1% care about quality, 1% of the US population is well over 3 million people.

I've heard of women who want "Boy toys," not to be confused with "boy's toys."

It is the learning curve as much as any other barrier; both finding out there are better options, and then how to acquire and use them effectively. I may enjoy a good vocal, but I cannot carry a tune in a bucket (unless it is on tape/disc).
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05-19-2022, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpalomaki View Post
not to be confused with "boy's toys."


Quote:
It is the learning curve as much as any other barrier; both finding out there are better options, and then how to acquire and use them effectively. I may enjoy a good vocal, but I cannot carry a tune in a bucket
Not even with a bucket here. It spills all over the floor, must clean it up with a mop.

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  #16  
05-20-2022, 12:19 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
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It must be something very different between the Britains and Americans, Colin a well known youtube member who does video capturing for a living in the UK did mention to me in several occasions that his customers prefer DV, Here in the US even if DV is the best they wouldn't know what to do with a 13GB an hour files anyway, so a re-encode to h.264 is a must which defeats the purpose of using DV in the first place.
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  #17  
05-20-2022, 01:21 AM
mrwassen mrwassen is offline
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Thanks for your feedback and other entertaining aspects of this thread :-)

Based on the feedback and more testing, the workflow is shaping up as follows:

JVC HR-S7860EK >
S-video / RCA audio >
ADVC-3000 >
SDI output via BNC cable >
Blackmagic DeckLink Mini Recorder 4K PCIe Card >
Lossless capture to .avi - software TBD (see below) >
Post capture editing = Vegas Pro v.16 >
Render mp4 / h264

So the open question is capture software, I have looked at/tried the following:

Virtualdub (tried both 32 and 64 bit)
=====================================
No matter how I configure this, the captured audio gets crackly and messed up - I must be doing something wrong as this software presumably is mainstream in the video capture community. (Any suggestions welcome)

Blackmagic Media Express
==================
Works ok but no timer (and I have some pretty bad footage where frames drop so I can't always turn on the "stop capture at frame drop" option). Also, when importing the AVI to Vegas Pro 16, no audio track shows up. I tried to research the missing codec without luck. Windows media player and other players recognize the audio. I am sure that this could be overcome with some intermediary remuxing using ffmpeg or similar, but I was hoping to minimize workflow steps where possible.

Amarec
======
Is probably fine, but I was hoping to avoid the $30 codec license fee :-)

OBS
===
While I realize that some have concerns about capturing with OBS, I was able to find out that OBS does support a lossless option: selecting Settings / Recording / Recording Quality = "Lossless Quality, Tremendously Large File Size" the capture produces an AVI file with the following codecs:

Stream 0
Codec: Ut Video (ULH0)
Type: Video
Video resolution: 720x576
Buffer dimensions: 720x576
Frame rate: 60
Decoded format: Planar 4:2:0 YUV
Orientation: Top left
Color space: ITU-R BT.709 Range

Stream 1
Codec: araw
Type: Audio
Channels: Stereo
Sample rate: 48000 Hz
Bits per sample: 16

This site lists lossless capture options: https://streamguides.gg/2021/06/how-to-capture-raw-or-lossless-video-in-obs-studio/

Does the above mentioned capability to capture lossless in OBS address the concerns raised by latreche and hodgey?

Thanks again for such a great forum.

Dennis
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  #18  
05-20-2022, 02:28 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
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In vdub you have to turn off audio monitoring, It's a well known issue of vdub that never got addressed. To monitor audio it is better to use an external monitor anyway, Does the ADVC-3000 have line out?
AmarecTV should be able to capture lossless without any codec needed.

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  #19  
05-20-2022, 04:11 AM
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Quote:
Amarec
======
Is probably fine, but I was hoping to avoid the $30 codec license fee :-)
Use version 3.10, no AmarecTV own codec needed https://www.videohelp.com/software/AmaRecTV, then use the lossless codec you prefer

A channel on S-VHS / VHS capture and AviSynth restoration https://bit.ly/3mHWbkN
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  #20  
05-20-2022, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrwassen View Post
OBS
===
While I realize that some have concerns about capturing with OBS, I was able to find out that OBS does support a lossless option: selecting Settings / Recording / Recording Quality = "Lossless Quality, Tremendously Large File Size" the capture produces an AVI file with the following codecs:
Isn't OBS a screen recorder ? I wouldn't use that software but rather one that can tap directly from the card
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