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  #1  
05-20-2015, 04:41 PM
mo418 mo418 is offline
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I own honestech VHStoDVD 4 Deluxe. I tried this plug and play capture but it didn't go very well. Laggy video and video output quality could be better (despite the highest setting set). I have a 8mm camcorder directly plugged into the device. It has one video out (yellow) and one channel audio out (white). The Honestech device is this http://www.honestech.com/main/vhs-to...deluxe-old.asp

So I searched the internet, and found out I could use this hardware combined to VirtualDub to capture video.

After having a look at the captured video, I wondered what was those horizontal lines, and discovered this was interlacing.... And so on for many other things observed.

I had questions/encountered issues, so googled a lot, hence learned a lot on the subject. So what was first intended to be plug and play work, is now consuming me a lot of time (which is ok for me since I like learning everyday). Still I consider myself a noob because I'm never 100% sure of what I'm doing.

First of all, I have a workflow question and was wondering if I'm proceeding ok:

1 Capture
Honestech Hardware
RCA cable
USB 2.0


Virtual Dub Software
Video (Lagarith)
Audio Uncompressed (Direct Stream)


I get audio sync issue, but it is fixed value so....

2 Edit (for audio)
Virtual Dub Software
Video (Direct Stream)
Audio Uncompressed (Direct Stream) + Interleaving (value for Skew)


3 Deinterlacing
From web search, found Avisynth and QTGMC
VirtualDub
Avisynth script loaded

Here is the script
AVISource("filename_with_audio_corrected.avi")
AssumeTFF()
QTGMC( Preset="Slow" )

Video (Fast Recompress)
Audio Uncompressed (Direct Stream)


4 Encoding
I wish to use x264 encoding, and mp3.
Already did once, worked, but have ghosting (I think)...


So my first question would be:

Am I proceeding ok? Is there a step I could avoid to save some time or to have better quality?

My second question is about this (see images below). I thought this was chroma shift but after noticing it on many capture, I guess this is ghosting. I would like to confirm with you what is this phenomena.

This is an example of raw capture (interlaced)



These are examples of deinterlaced video with qtgmc in virtualdub
Notice the halo (ghosting?) aside the man's shirt...



Notice the strange effect on the car's rear light (chroma shift or bleeding? Noise? Ghosting? I couldn't point out from web search...)



Notice the Referee (edge of his pants showing on the boards, and white of the boards showing on his pants)



All this being said, any help would be appreciated.

Thanks (a lot) in advance!

PS: I have posted on Doom9 forum, but have no answers yet (after many views). I'm thinking maybe someone could help here Hope it does not offend anyone because of the duplicate
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  #2  
05-20-2015, 10:33 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Welcome.
It looks as if you've done research and accomplished much on your own. Good work.
A few points....

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
I own honestech VHStoDVD 4 Deluxe. I tried this plug and play capture but it didn't go very well. Laggy video and video output quality could be better (despite the highest setting set). I have a 8mm camcorder directly plugged into the device. It has one video out (yellow) and one channel audio out (white). The Honestech device is this http://www.honestech.com/main/vhs-to...deluxe-old.asp
Many members here are familiar with Honestech. The consensus is that Honestech should be avoided if quality is a concern. Many complaints about dropped frames, bad audio sync, poor quality -- but I guess you know about some of that by now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
After having a look at the captured video, I wondered what was those horizontal lines, and discovered this was interlacing....
Not unusual. Analog tape is interlaced. So is DVD. So is standard definition BluRay. So is 1920x1080 25/29.97 fps BluRay and most TV broadcasts. If they're not interlaced they're telecined. PC media players, set top players, external media players, and TV's are designed to deinterlace or inverse telecine automatically, depending on the source. Most computer video editors don't. Other than more or less quality loss depending on several factors, deinterlacing has two main effects: it doubles the frame rate (invalid for many video formats) and degrades smooth motion. If the video source is telecined (movie-based), it can't be deinterlaced.

Why are you deinterlacing? (If you want web streaming, that's different).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
So what was first intended to be plug and play work, is now consuming me a lot of time (which is ok for me since I like learning everyday). Still I consider myself a noob because I'm never 100% sure of what I'm doing.
Welcome to the club, LOL! There are plenty of people who take the easy, cheap, quick way out. Their work is easy to spot. Better results take longer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
First of all, I have a workflow question and was wondering if I'm proceeding ok:

1 Capture
Honestech Hardware
RCA cable USB 2.0
(a) Honestech results are difficult to work with even for people who know what they're doing. It's not recommeneded. (b) RCA composite makes it worse and results in artifacts that are near-impossible to fix, if at all. S-video for analog capture from tape players/cameras is the prevailing standard. Of course, if your player's s-video circuitry is crumby, it won't matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
I get audio sync issue, but it is fixed value so....
Not sure what you mean by "fixed value". It's a fixed audio sampling rate and other specs, but that doesn't mean it's in sync with your video. I see you're capturing to uncompressed PCM, so you're starting correctly at least. But you should not have to make sync corrections later unless something's amiss during capture. A frequent problem with low-tier capture devices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
3 Deinterlacing
From web search, found Avisynth and QTGMC
VirtualDub
Avisynth script loaded
Why? Is your intended output for the internet or PC only?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
Here is the script
AVISource("filename_with_audio_corrected.avi")
AssumeTFF()
QTGMC( Preset="Slow" )

Video (Fast Recompress) Audio Uncompressed (Direct Stream)
It works, but did you choose that particular setting for a particular reason? QTGMC has many uses and many filter settings. The one you're using might be the best choice for some videos, but it could also be among the worst for some other videos.

BTW, QTGMC's default is "Slow" and doesn't have to be specified. You could use this simplified statement and get the same results:
Code:
AssumeTFF.QTGMC()
Are you capturing to YV12? You shouldn't be. QTGMC works only in YV12 by default, but I don't see where your script converts to that colorspace unless YV12 is the way you're capturing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
4 Encoding
I wish to use x264 encoding, and mp3.
"x264" isn't a codec. It's an encoding engine. The codec's proper name is "H264". Some encoding apps use the x264 encoder, others use something else.

I'm getting the idea that you're preparing these videos for web display -- especially since mp3 won't work with standard video formats like DVD or BluRay. It's lower-quality audio compression, but it's usually favored for web streaming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
So my first question would be:

Am I proceeding ok? Is there a step I could avoid to save some time or to have better quality?
OK in many respects. See my feedback above. Couple of things you need to work on, though: surely you can get better than Honestech, and don't use composite if you can possibly use anything else (and that's not just for y/c filtering considerations).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
My second question is about this (see images below). I thought this was chroma shift but after noticing it on many capture, I guess this is ghosting. I would like to confirm with you what is this phenomena.

This is an example of raw capture (interlaced)
http://1drv.ms/1LiBm3W
If objects or the camera were moving during exposure, that's what an interlaced frame looks like.

It's not really 'raw", which happens to be the name of a specific graphics/video format. Maybe avoid confusion and say it's "an unaltered image" or some such nonsense. But we know what you mean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
Notice the halo (ghosting?) aside the man's shirt...

http://1drv.ms/1S8NaKJ
That's a mix of many things, but mainly it's ghosting and halo. The left-side dark ghost has a bright edge halo. There's also a dark halo on the right side. Some of that might be caused by strong temporal filtering or several other things, and it's a cinch the bright color is over-modulated (too bright), which causes bleeding or "blooming".

We all hope that you aren't upscaling your SD image to HD frames. It never works. In this case, the cropping and resizing have an invalid height (all dimensions of encoded video should be mod-8, or evenly divisible by 8). The height of the image isn't mod-8. It isn't mod-4, either. When you crop, take that into account when laying out your final image.

Also note that the bright luma and bright chroma are visibly clipped. They exceed the RGB 235 upper limit for TV, and even exceed the RGB 255 limit for PC display. The histogram below tells the story. Everything that's climbing up the right-hand wall of the histogram indicates clipped detail -- another word for "destroyed". Clipped detail can't be retrieved.

Overall, image gamma is too high and looks washed out. Aside from other problems, it looks over-filtered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
Notice the strange effect on the car's rear light (chroma shift or bleeding? Noise? Ghosting? I couldn't point out from web search...)

http://1drv.ms/1S8NqcK
Chroma upsampling error (cue), also considered a form of dot crawl. Common with cheap capture cards and worsened by using composite input. And it's bleeding, too. Usually affects low-frequency colors (such as red) and oversaturated ones. The image also has high gamma and clipped brights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
Notice the Referee (edge of his pants showing on the boards, and white of the boards showing on his pants)

http://1drv.ms/1cN9rgC
Well...I think it's a different problem The man's pants have a gray stripe. So do all the pants on all the other guys. It's a poor, low-detail image with strong over-sharpening halos and edge ringing -- bright ones in some cases, dark ones in others (look at the white posts), some bleeding. Note some "notches" or small wiggles in the posts and along the side borders (those are line sync errors during playback). Sharpening didn't help this image at all, and the muted colors and other problems make this look like a multi-gen dub from tape -- either that, or it has been seriously over-filtered and then all too seriously over-sharpened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
PS: I have posted on Doom9 forum, but have no answers yet (after many views). I'm thinking maybe someone could help here Hope it does not offend anyone because of the duplicate
No exclusive policy here on questions. Or answers. Some members belong to several other forums.

Anyway, you're off to a start. You'd be surprised how many newcomers don't get as far as you have.


Excuse the many typos you might (will) find in this reply. It's getting late here.

Last edited by sanlyn; 05-20-2015 at 11:04 PM.
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  #3  
05-20-2015, 10:37 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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(EDIT: My post was composed at the same time as Sanlyn's.)

Yeah those are some huge halos. "Ghosting" is used to refer to many different things, so "halos" is more clear. The effect is typically caused by artificial sharpening. If you have Proc Amp adjustments available in VirtualDub (Video -> Levels ideally; if not Video -> Capture Filter -> Video Proc Amp tab), turn Sharpness all the way down on the capture device. If the halos remain, the problem is with the playback machine or the recordings themselves.

The chroma issue on the car lights may be dot crawl, though it looks unusually diagonal in your case. The best way to minimize dot crawl would be to use a playback machine with S-Video output, but that means investing in a Hi8 or Digital8 device.

Regarding your workflow, well the audio sync thing is unfortunate. I don't know what to suggest there. (Oh wait, altering the Capture -> Timing settings may help. But different devices seem to need different settings.)

For the deinterlacing, it seems like you're saying you put the script into VirtualDub and created an AVI output using Fast Recompress, then encoded that using x264. You don't need to do that; you can feed the Avisynth script straight into x264.

x264 + MP3 is a weird combination. x264 + AAC would be the typical configuration, and AAC is a more efficient audio compressor.

(EDIT2: Just replies to above post.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Not sure what you mean by "fixed value".
It take it he means it's delayed by a certain amount that can be fixed by a simple shift, as opposed to drifting sync.

Quote:
QTGMC works only in YV12 by default
Nah, it supports YUY2 natively these days (phew!). I'm not sure when that was added, but the oldest version of the Wiki page is from 2013, and it says it worked then.

Last edited by msgohan; 05-20-2015 at 10:52 PM.
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  #4  
05-20-2015, 10:55 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Thanks for the additions, msgohan. I mentioned AAC but somehow half a paragraph got deleted. It was getting to be too long anyway.

To get more specific about the ghost/halo problem, we'd have to see a few seconds of original unprocessed AVI capture.

Looks like there's some y/c comb filtering somewhere along the capture line, as I don't see much generic dot crawl in those images. That cross-hatch -- or whatever it's called -- appeared in several examples of CUE (chroma upsampling error) I saw in years passed. Some of the cheap EZCap spinoffs often showed it, too, and so do some older DVD-player decoders.

Last edited by sanlyn; 05-20-2015 at 11:08 PM.
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  #5  
05-21-2015, 12:47 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is online now
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All the images seem to be broken now, so I cannot help here.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
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  #6  
05-21-2015, 06:17 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Quote:
I get audio sync issue, but it is fixed value so....
Could be the capture card has different latency in the audio and video signal path, or it could be a playback issue with different signal latencies in the viewing system (the more likely condition). For example, audio may make it out of a PC's audio card faster than video makes it out of the video display. This is especially common if a PC is configured to use different audio and video output devices; e.g., the PC's sound card for audio and a separate video output device to drive a TV set.

Leading audio is an unnatural state and more noticeable than lagging audio.
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  #7  
05-21-2015, 08:59 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
All the images seem to be broken now, so I cannot help here.
I took the liberty of attaching the 4 images here, in the same A,B,C,D order as in the discussion earlier. If you or the O.P. don't want them here, I won't complain if they're removed.

That "D" ghost picture is in such bad shape, it's difficult to tell a uniform stripe from a ghost or halo. Dark details are seriously murky and crushed somewhere along the line, so recognizing an artifact from something else in nearly impossible. Tape-to-tape dupes usually look like that. All the images look like tape dupes to me, but I could be wrong (won't be the first time).

Can't give much more advice without a sample of an original, unprocessed capture. That might give some clue about the sync problem as well. The capture device is known to bring sync problems with it.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg A_2.JPG (103.8 KB, 157 downloads)
File Type: jpg B_Capture2.jpg (81.3 KB, 153 downloads)
File Type: jpg C_Capture01.jpg (94.9 KB, 154 downloads)
File Type: jpg D_Ghosting.JPG (59.9 KB, 155 downloads)
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  #8  
05-21-2015, 11:26 AM
mo418 mo418 is offline
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Hi! Lots of reading here! This is AWESOME. Thanks for your support first of all.

I will separate my answer by section because quoting everyone would be too long. Btw, I speak French, so sorry for using words that might not be suitable to describe what I want to describe hehe

For the capture device and/or method
I own honestech as you know. So this could be part of the culprit. I would like better quality indeed.

Friend of mine lent me the EasyCap device. Could it be better? I will try tonight anyways

I also have access to a Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-1250. It is on my HTPC (constantly in use so I was looking for something else to capture since I don't want my girlfriend to yell at me because I'm using the TV... ok I'm just kidding here about the g/f but I can capture during the night even if it is on my HTPC.)

Should I buy a S-Video to rca adapter? The output from the camcorder is RCA (only white and yellow). Would it help. My guess is no since the cam has no S-Video out.

Capture settings
I must confess that (without knowing what I was really doing) I pumped up contrast a bit from 3 to 5 in the virtualdub settings (device settings). I guess it did not help at all

Deinterlacing
The goal of deinterlacing is for PC watching. I want to archive those videos in digital format.


QTGMC use
I use this script because it seems to be the best for the task. Well I think so, from web search (unless you say else than this)

The output file is YUY2, not YV12

Audio Sync issue
What I meant by "fixed value" is that it is out of sync from the same value all the way through the video. So quite an easy fix. Audio is lagging (roughly by 500ms) btw, not leading.

Other points
Sorry, I used "raw" because I'm used to this term in photography editing (Canon CR2, etc...)

I'm not upscaling my SD image to HD frames

Thanks for the QTMGC simplified script

Thanks for the encoding clarifications and suggestions

I don't mind you reposted the pictures. In fact, thank you! But the links are still up on my side.

How is it possible for me to upload some unprocessed captured footage?
(Nevermind, just saw the "How to Upload/View/Download Images & Attachments" thread)

Summary
Gamma is too high and looks washed out
Over-sharpening halos and edge ringing
Have Chroma upsampling error CUE / dot crawl
Bright luma and bright chroma are clipped


Thanks in advance!

Last edited by mo418; 05-21-2015 at 11:43 AM.
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  #9  
05-21-2015, 12:22 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Quote:
Should I buy a S-Video to rca adapter? The output from the camcorder is RCA (only white and yellow).
Would only help if the composite-to-s-video adapter you buy is better than that in your capture device, and the cheap adapters are most likely not better. It is better to have a player that provides native s-video output; that typically means a Hi8 or Digital8 camcorder or VCR for 8mm video tapes.

The underlying issue is that there are three dimensions to the problem; i.e., cost, speed, and quality - called good, fast, cheap. And you cannot have all three at the same time.
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  #10  
05-21-2015, 12:40 PM
mo418 mo418 is offline
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Had a look at S-video 8mm player. Kind of expensive, which is in one of your dimension

Will try to find someone in my family that have this hehe Who knows
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05-21-2015, 04:21 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
For the capture device and/or method
I own honestech as you know. So this could be part of the culprit. I would like better quality indeed.

Friend of mine lent me the EasyCap device. Could it be better?
Most EasyCaps in use around the globe are cheap fakes of a product that's already cheap to begin with. The "real" product is, well, "decent" compared to most cheapies but a long way from the quality you say you're after. The fakes were so prevalent and so cheap ($10 ????, What do you expect from that?) and so widespread that EasyCap changed its name to EZCap. And there are fakes of that one, too. The only real version made and sold today is from http://www.ezcap.tv.

There several giveaways for older models of the EasyCap. For older "EasyCaps":
The fakes have very thin or overly thick fonts in the product name on the barrell.
fake has SMI Grabber or EZ Grabber on cyclinder or in software CD. Real has "USB2.0 ATV" or "USB 2.0 Grabber".
Fake has 64-bit software on CD, real has 32 + 64-bit.
Fake has black inside the USB plug, real has white.
Fake has no s-video jack, real has s-video + composite.

Old and new fakes have similar differences. All of that notwithstanding, your research should have sooner or later led you to the frequently quoted, world-wide nickname for anything that has EasyCap/EZCap on the label -- "EasyCrap". That should tell you something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
I also have access to a Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-1250.
A decent product for what it does. I use a Hauppage HD-PVR myself, for HDTV capture. There is no lossless capture. It caps h264 whether SD or HD, which is not designed as an editing or restoration format. To avoid lawsuits and stop-orders from your free-enterprise friends at the cable outfits and Hollywood, Hauppauge makes those captures of copy-protected material just different enough that you can't go directly from capture to smart-rendering to authored disc. The caps might look like regulation HD to you, but they're really not. If you're skilled in decoding, restoration, and re-encoding (which entails much more than VirtualDub, which you'll need anyway), you can rework the caps into the real thing. This takes a lot longer than a few free weekends. Other disadvantages: you can't use VirtualDub or get lossless capture with the Hauppauge, nor can you massage the input signal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
Should I buy a S-Video to rca adapter?
I think you mean a composite to s-video adapter? Either way, no. After that signal leaves your VCR as composite, the best you can hope for is a pass-thru device with a good y/c comb filter and decent s-video output. That is, you can clean up that signal somewhat but you can't replace what gets lost using composite output from a VCR or camera. And as it is, the handful of pre-2005 legacy DVD recorders that people often use for line-tbc pass-thru (which is something else you need but don't have) into a good capture card are getting tough to find, and they cost more than even a genuine EZCap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
Capture settings
I must confess that (without knowing what I was really doing) I pumped up contrast a bit from 3 to 5 in the virtualdub settings (device settings). I guess it did not help at all
95% of the time you'd want to tame contrast during capture, not pump it. Don't try eyeballing it for accuracy, it seldom works. VirtualDub capture has a histogram for that. That's a YUV luma histogram. It doesn't tell you that much about oversaturated chroma that gets clipped. You'll need eyes for that. Fairly easy to spot: Oversaturated colors bleed and "bloom" and lose detail at the bright end. If a color looks unnaturally "hot" or has hotspots or shimmer, you're in trouble. Sometimes it's poorly recorded source, in which case you'll have to do the best you can during capture and fix it later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
Audio Sync issue
What I meant by "fixed value" is that it is out of sync from the same value all the way through the video. So quite an easy fix. Audio is lagging (roughly by 500ms) btw, not leading.
What's fixed is the audio bitrate. Again, it doesn't necessarily mean in-sync. You should not have audio sync problems with VirtualDub capture. Try using F6 to start the capture, not F5 or the mouse. Someone once told me it didn't make any difference how you start. I followed their advice and didn't use F6. Sync ws so bad I had to make that capture all over again. Maybe it was just me, but after ignoring that advice I've never had audio problems for 13 years from my ATI cards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
Deinterlacing
The goal of deinterlacing is for PC watching. I want to archive those videos in digital format.
An Interlaced digital archive is just as digital as a progressive digital archive. PC media players can and do deinterlace. Another consideration: movies don't play the same way on a PC monitor and a TV. The two displays use different color systems and different gamma response curves.

msgohan mentioned earlier the conflict with speed, cost, and quality. You can't have everything, even if BestBuy and the rest of the world are based on instant gratification without effort. Analog capture is a real pisser. You're dealing with two different worlds, neither of which are on speaking terms with the other. Digital translators and encoders don't see analog tape the way your TV does; that's not the way digital encoders were designed. There are capture devices out there that are aware of those two different lingos and have some adjustments to help make the outcome livable. An inappropriate player, no line sync or frame sync corrections, inappropriate or poorly designed capture devices -- ill considered compromise at any point in the signal path degrades the entire process. There are $1000-plus capture cards out there, but they can't improve a bad signal from a sub-par tape player.

The nearest thing to the legacy AGP AIW devices are somewhat newer model 600 and 650 USB devices from AMD/ATI and Diamond Multimedia. No, no longer sold at Walmart. Now and then you find an AIW AGP 7500 or 9000 pro at auction for what you think is a ripoff at $100 (they cost a lot more than that when they were new 10 or 15 years ago). There are newer post-650 models of the USB gear, apparently designed by people who don't know decent video from bad but who do know that hype brings money. There really are reasons why forums like this recommend certain devices over others. No one here has any income to gain by doing so. They're recommended because they're tried, proven, and work as intended.

http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/video.htm
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05-21-2015, 08:29 PM
mo418 mo418 is offline
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Hi!

Quote:
Most EasyCaps in use around the globe are cheap fakes of a product that's already cheap to begin with.
I think I have a real one, but not 100% sure. Made some research over the net.

Quote:
you can't use VirtualDub or get lossless capture with the Hauppauge, nor can you massage the input signal
Not sure to understand everything. This means that I could not simply use this card to capture my 8mm tape and edit it after. (since it is made for tv content which is under copyright)?

Quote:
I think you mean a composite to s-video adapter?
Yes this is what I meant. And this is what I thought.
I found a cheapo S-video and composite adapter (similar to this http://pisces.bbystatic.com/image2/B...anvasWidth=500) but it is giving me B&W image and some diagonals/diamond pattern visible on the screen (instead of interlaced footage with hor. lines). Tried NTSC_433, didn't change anything, so I kind of gave up with this adapter.

Quote:
95% of the time you'd want to tame contrast during capture, not pump it
Next time, I will lower it to 0. It is at 3 by default.

Quote:
You should not have audio sync problems with VirtualDub capture
Will try the F6 trick. Couldn't think it would potentially help.
Sorry for the terms used, again, I'm a novice

Quote:
An Interlaced digital archive is just as digital as a progressive digital archive. PC media players can and do deinterlace
Ok. Well, I noticed VLC was able to deinterlace, but the result is....let's say, ok but not the best.
I didn't think it was possible to compress interlaced footage. I thought I had to deinterlace before compressing/encoding.

If you tell me that it is possible to lower the filesize by a good amout (It creates 50GB files for less than 2 hours which is too big for my archiving capacity), then I'm in.

May you recommend a good software that can deinterlace on the go, despite I know it will not be as nice as on TV display!

Quote:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/video.htm
This is just, ehhh, kind of embarrassing. I realized that I'm doing many novice mistake and have some beginner misconceptions. I'm sorry maybe I have not read enough before posting!

Quote:
Common questions and misconceptions:

Q1: I should de-interlace because I want to watch it on my computer too?
A1: No. This is not true. All software DVD players come equipped with “bob” or “adaptive” de-interlace filters. You’re better off with playback software that uses these instead of using one of the odd/even or blend/merge/double filters.


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Finally, go to Capture, and Capture Video. F6 on the keyboard is a shortcut for this command. Press Capture again (or F6 again) to stop the capturing.


I have not started any other captures yet, but I will do some tests later (if it'S not getting too late!)

Thanks again for your time
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  #13  
05-22-2015, 06:56 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
Not sure to understand everything. This means that I could not simply use this card to capture my 8mm tape and edit it after. (since it is made for tv content which is under copyright)?
You can use that card to capture standard def video from tapes. You can't use Hauppauge with VirtualDub capture. You have to use the card's recording software. The card does not record lossless video. It records h264 lossy compression. Lossy compressed/encoded video is not designed for editing. h264, MPEG, DivX, mp4, etc., are final delivery formats -- that is, they are a last-step compression/encoding process not designed for edits or restoration.
http://telestreamblog.telestream.net...hen-editing-2/

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Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
I found a cheapo S-video and composite adapter (similar to this http://pisces.bbystatic.com/image2/B...anvasWidth=500) but it is giving me B&W image and some diagonals/diamond pattern visible on the screen (instead of interlaced footage with hor. lines). Tried NTSC_433, didn't change anything, so I kind of gave up with this adapter.
I tried some of those s-vid adapters some years back. We both found out the hard way: they don't work.

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Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
Ok. Well, I noticed VLC was able to deinterlace, but the result is....let's say, ok but not the best.
VLC is generally OK for mainstream video like DVD. Lossless video has much more data, meaning more work for players. Not so hot for HD. Go to its internal "Options" menu to set up deinterlace. In the Video category are several choices. The best are "Linear", "bob", and "yadif". It seems "Bob" is fastest. Yadif is supposed to be sharper (doesn't look that way to me!). "yadif 2x" is yadif but double the frame count. Yadif is one of several Avisynth deinterlacers. VirtualDub has a yadif version built-in, and QTGMC has a super-fast yadif repair mode. Maybe I'm just contrary, but I think VLC's "bob" looks smoother.

By the way, "yadif" gets its name from "Yet Another DeInterlace Filter". QTGMC is still king of the hill, so far.

Better players are MPC-BE and MPC-HC. They deinterlace well but tend to overshapen a bit. They need more CPU time and graphics power than VLC or Windows Media Player. Then again, if you're not using a calibrated monitor it's pretty much a waste of these players. MPC-BE and MPC-HC have image adjustments that get you closer to sane rendering. VLC's color adjustment is useless. Windows Media Player's image controls were disabled with version 9. Best way to get better rendering without calibration gear is to get a b&w movie and adjust tint/colors in MPC-BE or -HC until the grays are really gray and don't look tinted. You won't get it perfect because the image controls and the monitor's uncalibrated response aren't linear from black to bright -- but middle, neutral grays should be more workable.

The only way to really calibrate a monitor or TV is with a colorimeter. I'm assuming you won't go that far, but for your information this is the way a PC monitor is supposed to be calibrated: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/...e_display2.htm. Lacking that, there's always the fun manual test charts at http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/, which are free.

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Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
I didn't think it was possible to compress interlaced footage. I thought I had to deinterlace before compressing/encoding.
Compressors and encoders don't interlace or deinterlace. They just compress or encode. Your Hauppauge card compresses/encodes interlaced broadcast signals, doesn't it? One thing you never do with interlaced/telecined video is resize it. Also, if you're deinterlacing from sources that are movie-based, it's likely telecined. You can't deinterlace telecined video or you'll get really goofy playback.

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Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
If you tell me that it is possible to lower the filesize by a good amout (It creates 50GB files for less than 2 hours which is too big for my archiving capacity), then I'm in.
50GB is about right for most fast lossless compressors with 2 hours of SD video and YUY2. But deintelacing expands each deinterlaced field to full frames and doubles the frame count, which makes the file bigger and doubles the frame rate. UT Lossles codec is popular and makes slightly smaller files. The main reason for lossless is the ability to go from there to post-processing, cleanup and repair, all kinds of fancy visual/audio mods and your choice of many lossy encoded formats for disc, hard drives, or the web -- all without data loss in the work files.

Once you finish your edit or restoration, yeah, you need archive space. Best bet for a cleaner but smaller archive is encoding to very high bitrate MPEG or h264. MPEG handles interlace and telecine better than h264 and the BluRay version of MPEG offers very high bitrates for standard def BluRay or AVCHD. That would get 50GB down to 6 or 7 GB for 2 hours. Such a video would burn to DualLayer DVD. Or fit more than one movie on BluRay disc. You could get even smaller with lower bitrates, but the hard, cruel truth about bitrates is: lower bitrate = lower quality = more garbage. A popular and decent encoder offering several final delivery formats is TMPGenc Video Mastering Works, nicknamed TVMW. You'll always get better encodes with dedicated encoding apps than with all-in-one NLE's, many of which have trimmed-down or just plain bad encoders.

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Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
May you recommend a good software that can deinterlace on the go, despite I know it will not be as nice as on TV display!
See notes about MPC-BE and MPC-HC, above. Both are very similar. Many just stick with good ol' Media Player Classic (MPC).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
This is just, ehhh, kind of embarrassing. I realized that I'm doing many novice mistake and have some beginner misconceptions. I'm sorry maybe I have not read enough before posting!
Well, like I said: count yourself a member of the club!
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  #14  
05-22-2015, 11:36 AM
mo418 mo418 is offline
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Hi again,

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It records h264 lossy compression. Lossy compressed/encoded video is not designed for editing. h264, MPEG, DivX, mp4, etc., are final delivery formats
So it would give me a compressed file, but still interlaced. If I want to use suggested software to deinterlace "on the fly" while watching, this might be worth giving a try no? (let's say if I consider no editing at all)

Quote:
Better players are MPC-BE and MPC-HC. They deinterlace well but tend to overshapen a bit. They need more CPU time and graphics power than VLC or Windows Media Player. Then again, if you're not using a calibrated monitor it's pretty much a waste of these players
I will give a try at those 2.

Quote:
The only way to really calibrate a monitor or TV is with a colorimeter. I'm assuming you won't go that far, but for your information this is the way a PC monitor is supposed to be calibrated: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/...e_display2.htm. Lacking that, there's always the fun manual test charts at http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/, which are free.
As a photography enthusiast, I'm aware of this, but haven't calibrated any monitors nor tv at home. Kind of expensive for something that I don't really mind (well, I mind but I mean I think my stuff look ok from my "far from pro" eye, so...)

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But deinterlacing expands each deinterlaced field to full frames and doubles the frame count, which makes the file bigger and doubles the frame rate.
I noticed that! (when my drive was almost full!!)

Quote:
The main reason for lossless is the ability to go from there to post-processing, cleanup and repair, all kinds of fancy visual/audio mods and your choice of many lossy encoded formats for disc, hard drives, or the web -- all without data loss in the work files.
That is great, but is it possible to edit interlaced footage? I mean, the image is far from smooth with those lines, so what can you do? Correct colors, brightness and stuff like this?

Quote:
That would get 50GB down to 6 or 7 GB for 2 hours
Sounds good to me


So to sum up:

I could capture (with a better device), and still use Lagarith lossless compressor in YUY2 (file A)
Edit this file in virtualdub for what I want to, and then use fast recompress option before saving (file A)
Still in virtualdub, encode with Mpeg or H264 (with AAC audio) to compress interlaced footage to get a new file (so File A gives file B, which is smaller)
Then watch file B with proposed software using software deinterlacing

I'm still not sure to completely understand how virtualdub manage video before saving as avi (directstream, fast recompress, slow recompress, full processing) despite some research on the web.

Thanks in advance!
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  #15  
05-22-2015, 02:43 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
So it would give me a compressed file, but still interlaced. If I want to use suggested software to deinterlace "on the fly" while watching, this might be worth giving a try no?
........
That is great, but is it possible to edit interlaced footage? I mean, the image is far from smooth with those lines, so what can you do? Correct colors, brightness and stuff like this?
I'm wondering why you see the interlace or telecine effect when you play movies in a media player that deinterlaces properly. You watch your Hauppauge movies on TV and interlaced broadcasts over HDTV. Do you see interlace or telecine effects on TV broadcasts? You shouldn't. Of course you see them in an editor on a PC -- on it's own, a computer display or editor doesn't deinterlace. It's the player or TV that does it. Editors aren't players; they're designed to let you see a video's properties so you'll know what you're doing.

There's always badly made tape with all kinds of noise and defects, among them bad interlacing. You can also blame inferior capture cards for that when they create captured images. And don't forget, you need a VCR with good tracking and time a time base corrector to reduce a lot of those problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
I'm still not sure to completely understand how virtualdub manage video before saving as avi (directstream, fast recompress, slow recompress, full processing) despite some research on the web.
"Full processing mode" converts the input to RGB and allows applying VirtualDub filters. Even if you use no VirtualDub filters, full processing mode converts to RGB anyway and saves to uncompressed RGB by default unless you specify another output. "Direct stream copy" just copies the input and outputs a copy as-is. Nothing changes, no conversions. "Fast recompress" is used if you want a new copy of the input using a different (or even the same) colorspace and compression, or to save Avisynth input without ruinning VirtualDub filters on it. VirtualDub filters won't be applied. "Slow compress" is almost redundant, just use "fast recompress", it's virtually the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
That is great, but is it possible to edit interlaced footage? I mean, the image is far from smooth with those lines, so what can you do? Correct colors, brightness and stuff like this?
Depends on what you're doing. Some noise problems require non-interlaced or non-telecined footage. When you load some VirtualDub filters, you might see an "interlaced" check box in the dialog settings, indicating that the filter treats interlaced and non-interlaced video differently (but outputs interlaced if the input was interlaced). Most of VDub's filters don't care. If you mean encoded video (MPEG, h264, Xvid, etc.), applying VDub filters requires complete decoding, conversion to RGB, reconversion to the original colorspace (usually YV12), and lossy re-encoding in its entirety. If cut and join is all you want, VirtualDub does not smart-render encoded video. You need a frame-specific smart-rendering editor for that. And as I said, most editors don't deinterlace the display.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
I could capture (with a better device), and still use Lagarith lossless compressor in YUY2 (file A)
Edit this file in virtualdub for what I want to, and then use fast recompress option before saving (file A)
Still in virtualdub, encode with Mpeg or H264 (with AAC audio) to compress interlaced footage to get a new file (so File A gives file B, which is smaller)
For reasons explained above, I'm afraid not. This would be an entire lesson in decoding. edits, and re-encoding using various software. Submit a short sample of an unprocessed AVI capture. You can cut a few seconds of AVI in VirtualDub and use Direct stream copy to save the edit. Then we can get into more detail. From some of your comments, it sounds as if you have line sync problems and excessive combing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo418 View Post
so what can you do? Correct colors, brightness and stuff like this?
Of course. But, brother, I wish analog video was that easy!

I guess it's time for a few old samples of problems and possibilities, and why you need to do things a certain way. All of these samples are posted elsewhere in the forum.

The first 2 small samples are a piece of MTV video captured from MTV as interlaced. It has bad vertical and horizontal jitter, and some frames are reversed as well as in the wrong sequence. It also has typical VHS chroma noise, bad color, and looks generally awful. Likely the frame sequence problem occurred by previously deinterlacing a telecined video, which is a big no-no.

First two samples are a piece of MTV video captured as interlaced. It has bad vertical and horizontal jitter, and some frames are reversed as well as in the wrong sequence. It also has typical VHS chroma noise, bad color, and looks generally awful.

This is the original m2v posted in the forum (m2v = mpeg without audio): jitter_2.m2v

jitter2.mpg is the repaired version with frames in proper sequence, frame hopping smoothed, head switching noise and bad borders fixed in a manner that didn't change the original image aspect ratio. Done in Avisynth. Color tweaked in VirtualDub: jitter2.mpg

Below, "A" and "B" are examples of trying to clean up bad chroma flicker. The "A" version is the original telecined YUY2 AVI capture, encoded for posting directly to MPEG with no added processing. This retail tape is one of the world's worst film-to-VHS transfers. It's noisy, has all kinds of defects (spots, noisy edges, bad color, excessive grain). The tape is beat up and played to death. The chroma flicker can be seen in bright areas, which alternately turn reddish, bluish, then greenish. Although a tbc cleared Macrovision for capture, Macrovision typically can have many residual side effects (such as the flicker shown here). On the original tape, the flicker gradually dissipates about 30 minutes into the tape. "A" is the original, "B" is the clean-up.

Original: A_flicker_samples_original.mpg
cleanup: B_flicker_samples_after.mpg

"C" and "D" are examples of other damage control from the same tape. There are 4 short scenes. Besides horrible color differences from scene to scene, there are spots, huge color blotch "explosions", projector punch holes, chroma bleed, dark halos, white stringy stuff and whitish flareups, the usual tape noise, etc. Avisynth and TIVTC was used for starters, then VirtualDub for more cleanup and color. "C" is the original. "D" is the clean-up.

C_defect_samples_original.mpg
D_defect_samples_after.mpg

All samples were MPEG encoded separately from other processing. Not all of the "repaired" samples are fully finished as posted. An AVi sample that you might post would likely use a workflow similar to the above, but we have no sample yet to get into detail.

Last edited by sanlyn; 05-22-2015 at 02:57 PM.
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  #16  
05-23-2015, 04:11 PM
mo418 mo418 is offline
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Quote:
I'm wondering why you see the interlace or telecine effect when you play movies in a media player that deinterlaces properly. You watch your Hauppauge movies on TV and interlaced broadcasts over HDTV. Do you see interlace or telecine effects on TV broadcasts?

[...]

Editors aren't players; they're designed to let you see a video's properties so you'll know what you're doing.
No, everything is fine. The media center software is Mediaportal. I don't know what is the software for playback behind Mediaportal, but the image quality is perfect.

I was talking about virtualdub on my pc. I know that editors are meant for editing and not playback, but I just don't see how I can decide to correct this and that on a video when during editing, I see it as interlace (i.e. image not that smooth)

Thanks for the explanations the way virtualdub process the files.

Quote:
Depends on what you're doing. Some noise problems require non-interlaced or non-telecined footage. When you load some VirtualDub filters, you might see an "interlaced" check box in the dialog settings, indicating that the filter treats interlaced and non-interlaced video differently (but outputs interlaced if the input was interlaced). Most of VDub's filters don't care. If you mean encoded video (MPEG, h264, Xvid, etc.), applying VDub filters requires complete decoding, conversion to RGB, reconversion to the original colorspace (usually YV12), and lossy re-encoding in its entirety. If cut and join is all you want, VirtualDub does not smart-render encoded video. You need a frame-specific smart-rendering editor for that. And as I said, most editors don't deinterlace the display.
Ooook, I will need some google search to translate all this in something I understand. No I'm kidding, but I'll go deeper into the subject to well understand this paragraph.

Good examples you gave for processed videos.

As you request, I'll cut a short clip of unprocessed captures and upload it here. I think I will go with 2 samples. The hockey game and the Jeep trail (as in my initial screeshots)

Please allow me sometime to do so, I'll try to do as fast as possible.

Thanks for your incredible support, really appreciated!

Btw, should I submit lagarith capture or totally uncompressed video and audio as the option in virtualdub?

Thanks in advance!
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  #17  
05-23-2015, 06:32 PM
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Never attach uncompressed files.
In many cases, even lossless AVI is unnecessary, and a high bitrate MPEG can just as easily show problems.

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05-23-2015, 06:37 PM
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Alright, will work on this!

High bitrate is 3000kbps and above? Remember seeing 8000 max for h264 (I think, not sure)

Thanks!
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05-23-2015, 07:00 PM
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Reading this over now...

@sanlyn: I don't trust Avisynth devs to not change things, and without telling users. While the default for QTGMC may be "slow", I'd like to ensure this fact. (This also hopes that they don't monkey around with what "slow" means.) I've run into far too many issues over the years where something has been changed.

@mo414: Interlace can hide issues, when viewed progressive. When you deinterlace it, those issues can become obvious. It's one more reason that interlaced video should be left alone, if TV viewing is the target.

@sanyln: I often say "raw". I think the .raw format needs to find another name.

@mo414: QTGMC can cause halos, but not ghosting. The default setting sharpens, thus adding the ringing/halos. This can be turned off or reduced with advanced uses of the script.

From what I see, you're getting good advice from others. Nothing else for me to really add.

Doom9 is fine, I'm a member there too. But it's mostly for the filter developers or film restorers. You get better usage advice elsewhere. As sanlyn suggests, non-shooting video is a fairly small community, and members tend to be on several sites. However, many sites also have specialties. And since you need help with tape-sourced video, so digitalFAQ.com is the right place.

@mo414: High bitrate MPEG-2 starts at 15mbps. Be aware that H.264 is always filtered, and can hide issues. It's the main reason that "Youtube samples" are 100% useless.

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05-23-2015, 07:05 PM
mo418 mo418 is offline
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I shall try new capture and processing with less or no sharpening at all, before uploading samples. This might help in issue resolving

Thanks for your advice, I'll keep you posted asap
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