Quantcast Huffyuv workflow for editing - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
02-03-2013, 09:46 PM
Mejnour Mejnour is offline
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Hello,

Now that my setting are optimals (I think so) to generate huffyuv file. My first goal was to generate stables lossless file for archiving.
=======

Now I would like to know what is the ideal workflow

1) burn directly a DVD?

this week-end I did it with a 2 pass MPEG-2 compression with avidemux on a 18.5 GB file (42min)
That way I burn a ~1.3GB DVD. Its pretty straight forward but I will like to know if there is things that I should be carefull with for this simple task.

2) if I want to do some editing
I read that ideal worflow may avoid too many color space conversion.
What are you doing when you have to work with YUY2 file?
I read that AVISynth may offer some filtering option in YUV. Is it THE tool for this kind of file?

Quote:
Premiere, and almost all video editing programs work in RGB because it's easier to deal with mathematically. Premiere demands that all incoming video should be in RGB32 - or 24-bit color with 8-bit alpha channel, specifically, and will convert the YUV footage you give it to that format for processing. Even Premiere Pro which hailed itself as being able to support YUV formats can only support 4:4:4 uncompressed YUV which is hardly any different from RGB. The native DV support is useful but it still doesn't warrant all the hype as very few of the plugins (including Adobe's own sample code) actually use the YUV support at all.

AVISynth can work in either colorspace, but YUV is preferred, as many AVISynth filters run in YV12 colorspace these days - which is fine because it is the format used by DVD and other distributable forms like mpeg1, mpeg4 and so on.

TMPGEnc's VFAPI plugins all operate in RGB colorspace because all of its filtering and processing runs in RGB.

VirtualDub (and variants) run in RGB mode when you use Normal Recompress or Full Processing Mode (in the Video dropdown menu). All of VirtualDub's internal functions and filters run in RGB colorspace only. However, Fast Recompress doesn't decode the video to RGB, and instead just passes whatever your source is into the compressor you've selected - thus if your source is a YUV type then it passes the video data as YUV into the video compressor.

This is, of course, important because you need to know what conversion has to take place if you use source X in program Y or compress a certain format X using program Y.

For example, using Fast Recompress in VirtualDub (or any of its variants) is not only the fastest way to transcode video but also the least costly in terms of colorspace conversions. The drawback is you cannot you any of VirtualDub's filters in Fast Recompress mode - VirtualDub never even touches the incoming video stream... which is why you should use AviSynth for any video processing work.

By filtering all your sources in AVISynth you can avoid many colorspace conversions. The optimal scenario involves only 2 colorspace conversions: MPEG2 from DVD in YV12, processed with Avisynth in YV12 and then converted to RGB32 ready for editing. RGB export form editing program using Huffyuv in RGB mode and then converted to YV12 ready for the final video compressor. By doing this you not only save time but also quality by avoiding colorspace conversions.

Many people once used YUY2 mode in HuffYUV all the time thinking it was lossless - so they would import into Premiere, edit, export to YUY2, import again, edit, export again and each time it went into Premiere it was being converted into RGB and each time it was compressed to HuffYUV it was being converted to YUY2. This has lead to many faded-looking videos in the past.

Thankfully, with a little knowledge of these colorspaces, you can avoid doing this or at least only do it when you really need to.
Actually I have Adobe premiere pro CS5.5 and reading this http://forums.adobe.com/thread/825920
It seem that from what I can understand Premiere can work now not only in RGB!?
On a other hand I think I cannot work huffyuvfile on CS5.5 http://forums.adobe.com/message/2891276#2891276

My choice seem to be use a

1) other program with huffyuv or use codec like Lagarith and UT that can still be use for archiving and that seem to have no problem with 64bits cs5.5 (assuming that CS5.5 can work in YUV color space)

Well I will like to know what you're doing when working with huffyuv files to avoid weaky link in the chain.

Many thanks again
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  #2  
02-05-2013, 10:36 AM
Mejnour Mejnour is offline
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Okay

Concerning Audio

I extracted raw audio via Virtualdub.

Denoise it in Audacity.

Then I tried to load the denoise audio file in VirtualDub. I succed but "I think" that I cannot avoid the RGB conversion process of the video?

I ended with a way too big file.

Instead I tried to incorporate my denoise audio file during the MPEG-2 encoding with avidemux.
It work!

Basically it mean that I cannot archives my YUY2 file with the denoise WAV file from audacity?

Thanks again.
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  #3  
02-05-2013, 11:57 PM
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Method to encode seems fine, Avidemux 1.3GB ~42min, assuming 352x480

Try to avoid colorspace conversion, yes. But also don't beat yourself up if you have to do 1-2 conversions. Avisynth is fine. There's not much loss between YUV/YUY2 and RGB32. Use Avisynth to convert the colorspace. That helps. You want to avoid it, but within reason. Obviously Adobe Premiere is worth an RGB32 conversion.

Denoise audio in something else. Audacity is freeware, and is useful. Sound Forge is nice, and payware.

Sometimes you have to archive audio edits separate from video.

I think that answers you.

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  #4  
02-06-2013, 01:12 PM
Mejnour Mejnour is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
Method to encode seems fine, Avidemux 1.3GB ~42min, assuming 352x480
I guess you are right but just to be sure, it's 720x480 interleave, it's coming from VHS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
Try to avoid colorspace conversion, yes. But also don't beat yourself up if you have to do 1-2 conversions.
Thanks I am getting a bit paranoid too much reading can be dangerous

Quote:
Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
Avisynth is fine. There's not much loss between YUV/YUY2 and RGB32. Use Avisynth to convert the colorspace. That helps. You want to avoid it, but within reason.
Any particular reason for Avisynth instead of Virtualdub?


Quote:
Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
Obviously Adobe Premiere is worth an RGB32 conversion.
I wish but, anybody correct me, Adobe premiere just don't handle YUV2 Huffyuv files. I tried it myself and was just able to get the audio.
http://forums.adobe.com/message/2891276#2891276
One option may to use Avisynth or Virtualdub to convert in RGB and then open the file in Adobe premiere.
But now knowing that there is a bunch of video filters (assuming that they are equivalent to Adobe) in Avisynth and Virtualdub and that I can handle Audio with Audacity and compress with Avidemux, do I really need Adobe premiere with all his fancy complements (encore, media encoder)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
Denoise audio in something else. Audacity is freeware, and is useful. Sound Forge is nice, and payware.
Denoising audio and remplace the noisy file in the AVI container(archive) without re-encoding, is it possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
Sometimes you have to archive audio edits separate from video.
According to your answer above, it look like...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
I think that answers you.
Yes, the more I learn the more I realize that I know nothing

BIG THANKS
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  #5  
02-06-2013, 03:24 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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Audio is stored in a separate stream in AVI files, you can edit it independently of the video. Your HuffYUV problems may be because you only have the 32-bit version of the codec installed. Premiere Pro CS5.5 likely requires the 64-bit version in order to properly decode the video. Premiere Pro can natively handle YUV format video, so color space conversion should NOT be an issue.

There are a few tools to integrate Premiere into your workflow.

The AviSynth Import plug-in: This allows you to import any AviSynth script directly into your Premiere projects as if it was a standard media file. You can use AviSynth this way to avoid having to re-save your HuffYUV footage in other formats before importing.
32-bit: http://valion.net/csavs/
64-bit: http://pwolfamv.com/programs/csavs64/ (requires 64-bit build of avisynth and avisynth plug-ins)

DebugMode Frameserver: This tool is a godsend in my workflow. It allows you to feed your finished Premiere projects directly into an Avisynth script and/or video compressor without first saving your finished project to a video file. You avoid a generation of needless compression and save some hard drive space. I use it to feed my Premiere projects directly into AVANTI, which is a FFMpeg front end with AviSynth support.

http://www.debugmode.com/frameserver/
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  #6  
02-06-2013, 04:20 PM
Mejnour Mejnour is offline
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Hi NJRoadfan

Quote:
Originally Posted by NJRoadfan View Post
QUOTE=NJRoadfan;24862]Audio is stored in a separate stream in AVI files, you can edit it independently of the video. Your HuffYUV problems may be because you only have the 32-bit version of the codec installed. Premiere Pro CS5.5 likely requires the 64-bit version in order to properly decode the video. Premiere Pro can natively handle YUV format video, so color space conversion should NOT be an issue.
Are you telling me that you have been able to install the 64bits codecs and make it work with CS5.5?
Sure I tried with the 64 bits version!
Right now when I do a G-spot check on my AVI YUV2 file I got a "codec status indeterminated" + unable to open it in CS5.5. Well I got the same problem as some others users reported in adobe forum discussions.
Which methods have you used to install it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NJRoadfan View Post
There are a few tools to integrate Premiere into your workflow.

`B]The AviSynth Import plug-in:[/B] This allows you to import any AviSynth script directly into your Premiere projects as if it was a standard media file. You can use AviSynth this way to avoid having to re-save your HuffYUV footage in other formats before importing.
32-bit: http://valion.net/csavs/
64-bit: http://pwolfamv.com/programs/csavs64/ (requires 64-bit build of avisynth and avisynth plug-ins)

DebugMode Frameserver: This tool is a godsend in my workflow. It allows you to feed your finished Premiere projects directly into an Avisynth script and/or video compressor without first saving your finished project to a video file. You avoid a generation of needless compression and save some hard drive space. I use it to feed my Premiere projects directly into AVANTI, which is a FFMpeg front end with AviSynth support.

http://www.debugmode.com/frameserver/
Thanks NJRoadFan

You can be sure that if I am able to install the codec in CS5.5 I will have a look on the advices you gave me above.
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  #7  
02-06-2013, 04:42 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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What is the FourCC of the video files? HuffYUV files are identified as HFYU. If you captured with the Multi-threaded HuffYUV, their FourCC is HYMT and they are incompatible with the original version of the codec. To complicate things, FFMpeg's HuffYUV compressor tags files with a FourCC of FFVH. Post your GSpot output, I'm curious what it is IDing these files as.
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  #8  
02-06-2013, 04:58 PM
Mejnour Mejnour is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJRoadfan View Post
What is the FourCC of the video files? HuffYUV files are identified as HFYU. If you captured with the Multi-threaded HuffYUV, their FourCC is HYMT and they are incompatible with the original version of the codec. To complicate things, FFMpeg's HuffYUV compressor tags files with a FourCC of FFVH. Post your GSpot output, I'm curious what it is IDing these files as.
Okay I think you got me or at least give me something to look. I got both codecs installed on a computer Windows XP SP2 32bits that I use strictly for acquisition and coz I wanna be smart because I have a CP-PL Deluxe Xeon motherboard, I used Multi-threaded codec with VirtualDub.

Now what you see is the G-spot for the original file generated that have been open on a other computer (newer) that I want to use for editing. Sure I tried to install the 64bits codecs because it's a 64 bits W7 with 64 bits CS5.5.

So what you will see is HFYU!?


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  #9  
02-06-2013, 07:14 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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It looks like the 32-bit HuffYUV codec isn't installed at all. You have a codec issue here, the files likely will not show video if you open them in VirtualDub or Windows Media Player. VLC is the exception since it uses its own built in decoders. Installing both the 32-bit and 64-bit versions of VirtualDub is a good way to see what codecs are installed for which platform type.

I just tested importing a HuffYUV AVI into Premiere CS4 and it worked fine, so the problem is not with Premiere.
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  #10  
02-07-2013, 07:03 AM
Mejnour Mejnour is offline
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Good morning,

Quote:
Originally Posted by NJRoadfan View Post
It looks like the 32-bit HuffYUV codec isn't installed at all. You have a codec issue here, the files likely will not show video if you open them in VirtualDub or Windows Media Player. VLC is the exception since it uses its own built in decoders. Installing both the 32-bit and 64-bit versions of VirtualDub is a good way to see what codecs are installed for which platform type.

I just tested importing a HuffYUV AVI into Premiere CS4 and it worked fine, so the problem is not with Premiere.
Okay I will do some experiment and go back with the result. Right now I think I don't have a 64bits version of Virutaldub installed on my computer because I just followed this thread instruction when doing the installation. I use the attached download file for the installation. So right now I guess that I have a the 1.9.8 version in 32bits?

Quote:
Installing VirtualDub

Because VirtualDub does not need to be "installed" on a computer, rather merely zipped or RAR'd up, you can extract it to your computer

Windows 32-bit 9x/NT/2000/XP/Vista goes under C:\Program Files\
Windows 64-bit XP/Vista/7 goes under C:\Program Files (x86)\


Read more: VirtualDub with Filters Pre-loaded + HuffYUV [DOWNLOADS]
Right now I can open my file in Virtualdub but not in Windows Media Players. I guess I should dowload a 64bits version

http://virtualdub.sourceforge.net/

I will do some test.

THANKS
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  #11  
02-10-2013, 07:05 AM
Mejnour Mejnour is offline
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Hi NJRoadfan,

Okay I did succed to install the huffyuv 32bits codec on my personal computer and then I was able to play avi file in windows media players on a Windows7 64bits. Also I can see the codec in virtualdub. I did succed with the Dos installation method otherwise nothing work.

==============

When you are talking about being able to use huffyuv files in your premiere CS4 is it 64bits?
What is your set-up?

Because now I don't wanna make mistake in the installation process on my working computer.
I have CS5.5 64bits. So I should install a huffyuv 1.9.11? even if they suggest to use the 32bits version unless necessary and not the 1.9.8 version with all the filters avalaible here.

For the codecs I should use the 64bits codecs of huffyuv also available here?

Thanks
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  #12  
02-10-2013, 10:07 PM
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Hate to get off topic, but just wanted to say make sure that you use 352x480 otherwise 720x480 may come out looking blocky at that bitrate.

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  #13  
02-10-2013, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mejnour View Post
Hi NJRoadfan,
For the codecs I should use the 64bits codecs of huffyuv also available here?

Thanks
Download huffyuv64.zip from that thread and install it. Premiere CS5.5 should be able to load your files once it is properly installed.
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  #14  
02-11-2013, 05:46 AM
Mejnour Mejnour is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMP View Post
Hate to get off topic, but just wanted to say make sure that you use 352x480 otherwise 720x480 may come out looking blocky at that bitrate.
Thanks JMP Actually it's quite funny because I read in many threads that people use 352x480. Since my source is VHS tapes (NTSC and PAL) generated with unknow 80' cameras. I should use 352x480 but right now my setting for NTSC are 640x480.

I didn't remember why but then I read in the guide "understanding your source"

So I guess this is why right now that my video are 640x480

Quote:
What is the Source? And What Capture Resolution?

The Understanding Your Source capture guide has detailed information on source files. However, the following quick-list will cover the suggested capture resolutions for the most common sources, sorted by resolution:

352◊480 = VHS, S-VHS, 8mm, Hi8, Betamax, most of satellite, cable, broadcast antenna
480◊480 = anything being converted directly to SVCD
640◊480 = anything being captured as AVI intended for advanced editing in an NLE
704◊480 = laserdiscs, Betacam SP, PPV satellite channels
720◊480 = laserdiscs, Betacam SP, PPV satellite channels

Suggested AVI capture resolution. If you plan to heavily edit to video, experience has shown capturing at 640◊480 or 720◊480 resolution will often yield the best final product. It may be a huge file, but if quality is important, youíll find a way to store it. You can resize to a smaller resolution when encoding the final MPEG.

Suggested MPEG capture resolution. Since MPEG is a final output format, it is best to capture at the size and bit-rate you plan to use in the final project. Capturing 352◊480, 704◊480 and 720◊480 all look fine for DVD. Capturing 352◊240 can look fine too (though no suggested), depending on the program and itís method of on-the-fly de-interlace. All 352◊240 captures should be MPEG-1. Though MPEG-2 should look the same in theory, it often does not, with a lot of macroblocks as compared to the MPEG-1 version at the same resolution and bit-rate. Plus most capture programs and even authoring programs do not accept MPEG-2 352◊240 source. Only do 352◊240 if you plan to directly burn to VCD or low-quality DVD. Capturing 480◊480 for direct-to-SVCD projects is fine too.

Read more: http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/vid...#ixzz2Kacupmze
Are you guys using 352x480 even for massive editing?

Me I want to have 1)best archives possible and 2)editing possibility

THANKS
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  #15  
02-11-2013, 05:49 AM
Mejnour Mejnour is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJRoadfan View Post
Download huffyuv64.zip from that thread and install it. Premiere CS5.5 should be able to load your files once it is properly installed.
I will give a try today on my editing working computer

Just forgot to mention that despite Windows Media Player been able to play the file on my personal computer, G-spot still say "codec status indeterminated"?
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  #16  
02-11-2013, 07:02 AM
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I wrote that.
Edit as 720x480 or 640x480. These days, 720x480 is probably the better choice.
Final MPEG export is 352x480.

So there you go.

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  #17  
02-11-2013, 07:02 PM
Mejnour Mejnour is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
I wrote that.
Edit as 720x480 or 640x480. These days, 720x480 is probably the better choice.
Final MPEG export is 352x480.

So there you go.
So for PAL?

Acquire and edit at 720x576
Final MGEP export is 352x576
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  #18  
02-11-2013, 07:08 PM
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For PAL, use 720x576.
Final MPEG export is 352x576.

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  #19  
02-11-2013, 07:14 PM
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Hello HJRoadfan,

I finally suceed to install the 64bits huffyuv codecs but I have use a twist that I am not sure to understand myself

First I was not able to install the 64bits with the Dos procedure.

But I was able to install the 32bits codec with the Dos procedure.

After trying many things...

I finally extract the 64bits codecs in the "programs files (x86)" folder instead of directly on the c:

Right click on the "huffyuv.inf" and install.

Do you want to overwrite the file (the 32bits codecs was already installed), "yes".

There we go, now I can open AVI files in premiere CS5.5

Next step, try to install the plug-in that you mentionned earlier.

Thanks
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  #20  
02-21-2013, 08:28 PM
Mejnour Mejnour is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJRoadfan View Post
There are a few tools to integrate Premiere into your workflow.

The AviSynth Import plug-in: This allows you to import any AviSynth script directly into your Premiere projects as if it was a standard media file. You can use AviSynth this way to avoid having to re-save your HuffYUV footage in other formats before importing.
32-bit: http://valion.net/csavs/
64-bit: http://pwolfamv.com/programs/csavs64/ (requires 64-bit build of avisynth and avisynth plug-ins)
Hey MR.NJRoadfan

Okay I did install Avisynth 64-bit I followed this thread
Installing 2.5.8 32 bits and installing the 64-bit dll after.
I also installed virtualdub 64-bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NJRoadfan View Post
DebugMode Frameserver: This tool is a godsend in my workflow. It allows you to feed your finished Premiere projects directly into an Avisynth script and/or video compressor without first saving your finished project to a video file. You avoid a generation of needless compression and save some hard drive space. I use it to feed my Premiere projects directly into AVANTI, which is a FFMpeg front end with AviSynth support.

http://www.debugmode.com/frameserver/
Okay DubugMode is installed.
Now if I unterstand well, Avanti should be installed with FFMeg. Avanti is 32-bit (and there is some notifications to install it in Windows7) and FFmeg is available in 32 or 64 bit. Wich FFmeg should I install?

Right now you are talking to a guy who actually never use avisynth and all this new plug-in. So right now I really don't know if my installation is ok. I guess you can indicate some kind of test or for what should I look when I open CS5.5 or Virtualdub.

Thanks
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